Game of Thrones

[ChannelDelibird]

She might have a little bit of familial loyalty to Theon, but I don't think she has enough of it to justify endangering her best men like that.

I would have bought it more if her speech had been about showing their enemies that it was unwise to mess with their family rather than about wanting to save her little brother.

I thought she was reacting directly to Balon's disregard for Theon; realising that if she'd been born male it could just as easily have been her being cast aside like that. That coupled with the affection she already had for Theon tipped her over the edge. How it played to me, anyway.

[Tierce]

I thought she was reacting directly to Balon's disregard for Theon; realising that if she'd been born male it could just as easily have been her being cast aside like that. That coupled with the affection she already had for Theon tipped her over the edge. How it played to me, anyway.

This for me as well.

The Greyjoys had two other sons, and they are both dead. Theon may not be able to further the Greyjoy line, but he's

family

and he's all the family Yara has left besides her father. (I just noticed that Yara is an Arya anagram; so much for making it non-confusing through Asha-Yara.) He's a Greyjoy, he's Ironborn, and Yara knows he was trying

so damn hard

to impress their father and failed, and now the old man just tosses him aside.

She's perfectly capable of handling things on her own, as we've seen. It's perfectly in-character to take command of a ship (she's actually a captain of a specific ship in the books, iirc), take men (the Ironborn seem to love her), and raid the hell out of the Dreadfort to show that you don't need to be male/a man to know what

family

means.

He's her

brother

and he's being tortured, for pete's sake.

[Iecerint]

It looks like she's playing into Ramsay's hands AFAICT.

[evilpacman18]

The conversations between Tywin and Tyrion and between Roose Bolton and Walder Frey were my favorite parts of the episode. Also I liked how they revealed who Theon's torturer is. I wouldn't have guessed.

[springlullaby]

I dunno how politically convincing it is for the Bolton to cut a guy's penis in order to get territories back. The point of taking hostage is to threaten a rival's bloodline, what Bolton did seems counterproductive to me so it does look like a trap. However Greyjoy's reaction seemed out of character too, there is basically someone telling him their intention to piss all over him, he should be at least acknowledging that the guy needs to be dealt with in some way or analyse the motive of the threat at least, whether it is his son's testicles he is looking at or not. If Greyjoy suspect ulterior motive too, then why did he let his daughter ship off?

It is also not clear to me what the whole make Theon escape then recapture him was all about. Seems pointless.

Also it occurred to me it is not perhaps to redeem Theon that there is so much scene of torture, since clearly no one cares about him anyway, but just to set the Boltons as villains. And set Yara as an hero. But the Greyjoy are kinda utterly unconvincing to me. They have no alliance and no prestige, so who cares?

Anyway, at this point I just want more Tyrion and Arya. Shame there wasn't enough Jaime. Am I the only one who thought about incestuous stump-fucking at the reunion scene with Cersei?

Also, why does Bran want to go beyond the wall again? I missed that part.

[zoraster]

3-eyed raven.

[Tierce]

I dunno how politically convincing it is for the Bolton to cut a guy's penis in order to get territories back.

[...]

It is also not clear to me what the whole make Theon escape then recapture him was all about. Seems pointless.

Sheer cruelty and mindfuckery for Theon. Ramsay is one of the few true psychopaths in the series; he gets off on torturing people, doesn't need an ulterior motive (though he

did

learn that the Stark boys are alive and away from Winterfell by letting Theon escape and gaining his trust). Also note that the letter to the Greyjoys was written by Ramsay, not by his father.

[Ythan]

When Sam was rising from the ground, for a second I hoped and thought it would be Benjen

Me too.

She might have a little bit of familial loyalty to Theon, but I don't think she has enough of it to justify endangering her best men like that.

Ironborn don't need justification to endanger their lives.

[Seacore]

Definitely slower paced but some amazing scenes [/echo]

In particular I loved the juxta position of the two tyrion scenes. A long detailede scene with his father, lots of dialogue and disdain, followed by a very short scene with almost no dialogue that summed up exactly what is happening there.

Joffrey continues to be amazing "I'm not tired!" Tywin easily constructs a scene to make him sound petulant.

Arya getting to see the "King in the North" is a fairly good substitute for some scenes she missed out on in getting her to where she needs to go.

[Ythan]

I'm not tired was terrible, everyone is mine to torment was fantastic.

[Seacore]

I disagree. He went from this confident power filled "Everybone is mine to torment" (which was great) and then through a minor interaction with his grandfather, within a minute had been turned into a little child being sent to be "I'm not tired"

Also, I love how much Pycelle hates Tyrion.

[Iecerint]

I don't think Pycelle really cares about Tyrion either way; he's just a sycophant and knows who has the power right now.

[Korts]

I dunno how politically convincing it is for the Bolton to cut a guy's penis in order to get territories back.

[...]

It is also not clear to me what the whole make Theon escape then recapture him was all about. Seems pointless.

Sheer cruelty and mindfuckery for Theon. Ramsay is one of the few true psychopaths in the series; he gets off on torturing people, doesn't need an ulterior motive (though he

did

learn that the Stark boys are alive and away from Winterfell by letting Theon escape and gaining his trust). Also note that the letter to the Greyjoys was written by Ramsay, not by his father.

Agreed. Ramsay is not interested in making threats. He is entirely capable of dealing with the Ironborn occupying the North, he doesn't actually need Theon to make Balon withdraw. He's only doing it because he enjoys it, and he only sent Balon his son's penis because he gets off on rubbing things in people's faces.

[Seacore]

I don't think Pycelle really cares about Tyrion either way; he's just a sycophant and knows who has the power right now.

Then you are missing some great interplay. Watch the scene again. Pycelle drops the message on the ground and makes Tyrion get up and pick it up. He's done similar stuff all through the season. Tyrion had him thrown in prison and his beard hacked off. Pycelle hates him.

[Pretentiousdra]

sent Balon his son's penis because he gets off on rubbing things in people's faces.

[Iecerint]

You're probably right. They're sort of all mean to Tyrion except for Varys, though.

[springlullaby]

I like Varys, there is a benevolence to him that Littlefinger lacks. He'd be a good king. I don't know what's Pycelle's function on the council is, somekind of monk it seems.
I think Tywin would be pretty decent as king actually, in a patriarchal, suffocatingly rigid way.
His prejudice against Tyrion is kinda extraordinary. I like to imagine that he was really in love with his wife but didn't realize it until around the time before Tyrion's birth when his wife fell out of love and tried to elope with her chariot driver; Tyrion brought her back and engendered Tyrion by force, leading to the tale of birth and death. As such Tyrion is a living reminder of not only his wife's death breaking over his grey little heart made of stone, but also of the true viciousness prowling beneath his facade of relentless impassivity.

[Seacore]

You can imagine that stuff spring, but it isn't true. Or at least not established canon.

Tywin did genuinely and completely love his wive, and when she died, taken from him through the birth of Tyrion, the joy in his life left. Tywin also believes in legacy, and Tyrion is a mockery of the great legacy of Lannister blood.

You put those two things together and you've got Tyrion who has taken away the two things Tywin cared most about. You don't need any more to make Tywin's hate understandable.

[Seacore]

Also, Pycelle is a Maester, Grand Maester in fact. His role on the small council is to provide the benefit of his great education to the council, including history, geography, 'science', etc. The fact that he's both incredibly old and a complete toady gets in the way of his relevance.

[zoraster]

here's a question now that it's happened. Which do you think is the better way to experience the red wedding (and the beneading for that matter): watching the show first and knowing that it's coming while reading the books or vice versa?

[Tierce]

the beneading

If this was on purpose, I tip my hat to you, good sir.

Obviously it's kind of hard to compare, since we can only have one or the other. But I'm going to say book first. In the books you get these little hints that it is not all okay, while in the show it's all shock and awe and nothing can be expected before Rains + Bolton's chain mail. Both are great, and when I reread it will be with the show actors' faces replacing my vision of most characters, but I really really enjoyed spotting all the details and people attending the wedding in the show -after- having read the books. Was still absolutely gutted afterwards, so I don't think the extra knowledge dulled the experience.

[zoraster]

it was indeed. i shall take every bad pun related compliment i can get

[zoraster]

oh and on the plus side to the show, it's a lot easier to know when people are watching the red wedding. i've been there for both my sister and wife reading the red wedding and i'd keep asking them where in the book they were and when they got close i'd try and watch their face, but it wasn't really the same.

[ArcAngel9]

the last episode was amazing.. I loved how the ending was done. It was just amazing.... I watched the episode twice.
Can't wait for the next season.

[Seacore]

I'll echo Tierce (like I ever do otherwise) and say that the book is probably a better experience, assuming you enjoy reading as equally as watching. There's more characters involved in the book, so it makes it feel even more of a betrayal. Having the Greatjon put up a fight and then still go down, among others. Because in the series, by the time you remove the Tullys, Karstark, Bolton (and the Greatjon) Rob didn't have anybody named left. Which is probably why they felt the need to kill his wife off.

Also, apart from the shock, one of the things that hit me in the book was that Arya was so close! So close! And she'd already been through so much, and she was terrified of meeting her mother again after all she'd been through. In the show, Arya's adversity has definitely been decreased (yes, people who haven't read the books, Arya's journey in the show is a picnic compared to what she's been through in the books), which lessened the impact of her not getting back.

However all that could just be that I knew it all was coming in the show, because I'd read the book... but I don't think so.