Micro 181: Everyone's being watched (Game Over)

[Egg]

Rach, strategic lurking and inadvertant lurking have different feels to them. It's pretty easy to tell the difference once you learn how to differentiate.

Wisdom, there's our problem then. We are looking at meta from opposite heads of the hydra.

[Wisdom]

HD has barely talked, how did you meta him?

[Miss Destroyer]

Rach, did you not see me point out the fact that lurking is beyond null for me? I stated it like, twice. why are you ignoring it?

UNVOTE:

Still like Mala town

There is alot of shit we disagree on Grim, the only thing we are even remotely on the same page on is the fact that Rach is likely scum
~Mara

[Wisdom]

Figures youd vote the counterwagon
soo hammer her, we heard from Egg

[Wisdom]

oops nvm i thought you voted rach

[Malakittens]

Ill be catching up in the morning, but egg how am I scum?

[JasonWazza]

Vote Count 2.5

[3] Miss Destroyer: RachMarie, Grimgroove, Wisdom,
[2] RachMarie: Sword_of_omens, Malakittens,

Not voting: Egg, Miss Destroyer,

with 7 alive it takes 4 to lynch

Deadline: (expired on 2013-06-21 14:25:49)

[Grimgroove]

Rach, strategic lurking and inadvertant lurking have different feels to them. It's pretty easy to tell the difference once you learn how to differentiate.

Wisdom, there's our problem then. We are looking at meta from opposite heads of the hydra.

Could you explain your differentiation process when it comes to the forms of lurking? I'm not sure if I should call it lurking since Miss Destroyer has not been entirely inactive, but definitely in the beginning she was a non-presence, and considering she's actually a "they", being two players, how do you add that up with "inadvertant" lurking? Both players are normally very active (from what I hear in this topic, but it's also a general impression of mine because I've seen the names of both players pop-up quite a few times by now during my browsings on this forum), so wouldn't you expect this hydra to be active²?

What do you think of Miss Destroyer's scumhunting so far? The main thing that irks me is that it's limited, and the little that does happen is all through supposed associative tells, first Zionite-Malakittens, then RachMarie-Malakittens. I don't think associative tells provide a good basis for a scumhunt, I think it's quite easy to see an association between any two people one way or another if you just try hard enough. There's not much being said about "inherent" scumminess of people.

Also too much is blamed on the both of them not agreeing with each other. Inconsistent reads, strange word choices, hell, even the latest bout of inactivity was blamed on Mara by HD for her not warning him. It feels very much like a play to me. I assume HD has independent access to the Miss Destroyer account, why would he need Mara to inform him of this new daystart?



Also, could you clarify your reads from post 613? The only clarification I saw so far was your read on Miss Destroyer (meta), but given you apparently only looked at one side of the meta I don't find that very convincing. I also believe MAra was the most active head so far in this hydra, so could you explain your choice for looking at Destroyer's meta first?

[Grimgroove]

UNVOTE:

Going to provide a full reads-list later. I'm still behind the arguments put forward against Miss Destroyer, but I've been struck and stricken by a sudden sense of discomfort. There's still some time and there's something I don't quite like about Wisdom's insistance on the hammer, and RachMarie's presence on the Miss Destroyer wagon. I'll try to explain my dilemma in my readslist later.

[Wisdom]

Blah
Thats why we shouldnt have waited

[RachMarie]

wait what?

Are you trying to get me lynched Wis?

We still have 7 days and Egg has just recently replaced in, why you trying to end the day while we are still figuring stuffs out

[RachMarie]

uggh I just realized why someone might think that duh

I was supposed to visit someone and I picked fuzzy at random cause he was the first person to come to mind. Then I ignored it since I am VT had nothing else to do in the night. I totally forgot about it til I double checked my pm I sent to the mod.

Someone else visited Fuzzy though with more nefarious designs.

sigh

Well I would understand if you all lynch me based on that

[Grimgroove]

Euh, why the hell are you claiming?

[Grimgroove]

What just happened?

[RachMarie]

arent I at l-1 I saw Wis asking about Miss D hammering?

[Grimgroove]

Miss Destroyer is at L-1. You are at L-2. Wisdom asked, like he has been doing for most of this daystage, to hammer Miss Destroyer.
Then you burst in saying you visited fuzzybutternuts (while nobody claimed to see you there) and how you understand we'd lynch you over that.
If I ever saw scum panicking, it is now.

HoS: RachMarie

But I still want to do my reads list, if only to spot possible scumbuds- Half way through it.
I'd like to see everyone's reads at this stage.

[RachMarie]

Figures youd vote the counterwagon
soo hammer her, we heard from Egg

umm that did not sound like he was talking about Miss D esp since in the next post he said he thought they had voted me.

It is better that I be outted at this point even lynched over outting our watcher. duh

Which is why I shared that info

After I went back and realized why someone might think I am scumz.

[Grimgroove]

You're not making much sense RachMarie, and I think it's because you scumslipped over a misunderstanding.

Figures youd vote the counterwagon
soo hammer her, we heard from Egg

umm that did not sound like he was talking about Miss D esp since in the next post he said he thought they had voted me.

He said that in the next vote because he "accused" Miss Destroyer of voting the counterwagon, being your wagon.

Anyway, I believe you when you say you misunderstood, explaining why you claimed already,b ut your reaction is very striking.

It is better that I be outted at this point even lynched over outting our watcher. duh

Yes, I don't see the logic in that. Where was there ever a risk in the watcher being outed? The way I see it:
1/ You think you see serious suspicion building up against you, culminating in a possible hammer.
2/ You panic, and you think of what the reasons could be. Your first thought: your nightly visit at fuzzybutternut's has been exposed.
3/ Assuming it has already been exposed, you admit to the visit, but simultanuously claim that someone else must have visited him as well, because you're not the killer.
4/ I pop in, pointing to the fact that nobody claimed toh ave seen you at fuzzy's, and that nobody was talking about hammering you.
5/ You realize your mistake, and try to twist your admission of visiting fuzzybutternut into some kind of move to cover for our watcher, someone of whom you thought at the time of your admission had already exposed himself (how else, would the information of you visitng fuzzybutternut have reached us?)

Which is why I shared that info

Which is why this is a lie. This is not the reason you shared that info. Post 636 clearly shows you assumed this information was already out ("I can see why someone would think that"), and thus also the global watcher's identity. Now claiming you shared this info in order to protect his identity is BS.

After I went back and realized why someone might think I am scumz.

But you thought you had an L-1-wagon on you. This is more than just "someone" thinking you're scum. This is "someone" thinking you're scum and exposing this information to the others. Hence enforcing the fallacy I explained above.

[Grimgroove]

Damn typo's and bad word choices. I hope my explanation above can be followed despite of this, because I think we are dealing with a 100% scumslip here.

[Grimgroove]

Ok, so I can keep my readslist short (and I must admit I'm very itchy to vote for RachMarie now), because of most of my reads are still fairly intact, I'll just stick to giving my latest thoughts on the different players.

My earlier reads list you can find in post 357.
My comments in post 482 are to be read in addition to that, with mainly points on Wisdom, RachMarie and Malakittens.
My points here are a further addition.

It's these points on Wisdom (his role in the lynch on Zionite vs. his attitude towards DBK's hammer) and RachMarie (her attitude towards DBK's hammer plus other people's point about RachMarie focussing on voting lurkers) that made me second-guess my vote on Miss Destroyer, despite the arguments against her that seem quite robust in themselves as well.

My dilemma is that there are very good reasons not to trust Wisdom and RachMarie, who were the two who were with me on the wagon. If you don't trust the people on the wagon, it's only natural to start wondering about the wagon itself, despite some objective arguments.

My dilemma is that I have too few people I can trust at this stage of the game:

Wisdom, already somewhat on my radar in my first reads-post, brushed off my question about his attitude towards Zionite rather easily in post 483 by possible overconfidence. Maybe he is, but in that case he's not really learning from his mistake because now again he seems extremely confident about the Miss Destroyer lynch. I also don't like how in this same post 483 he calls the justification of the hammer unnecessary, yet later pretends no such justification exists by pretending the hammer and its reasons to be a mystery forever in post 501. He's using this blatantly false information to cast some suspicion on both RachMarie and sword_of_omen's slot.

RachMarie, who made an enormous fuss about the hammer for minor reasons, a fuss she later dropped with surprising ease considering the importance she seemed to grant to this topic. She then proceeds to go after Miss Destroyer, mainly based on meta and lurking. While I agree that Miss Destroyer's slot is not without its severe question marks (more on that later), I don't find RachMarie's role in this hunt very "kosher". As it happens I happen to have encountered RachMarie in other games (an ongoing one and a cancelled one), and if anyone should know "activity" can fluctuate regardless of alignment, it's her. She refers to RL-situations quite often herself to explain certain lack of activity.

There's an additional confusing fact about the above: I cannot imagine both of the above being in the same team. There's been quite some friction between them I believe cannot be faked. Therefore I think at least one of my suspicions is wrong, and given the latest developments, I'm inclined to put Wisdom in my town-pile and RachMarie in my scumpile through disassociation.

Malakittens, also on my radar earlier for her role in an earlier L-1 on Zionite, I found scummier during the first daystage than right now, though I'd like to see much more activity from her at this stage. She's very much on the fence about RachMarie, which, again given recent developments, makes her my second scumread now despite her stronger start in day 2. Het post 575 is extremely wiffywoffy, which I know is not a word but still aptly describes how I feel about it.

I think Miss Destroyer's case has been aptly covered through my questions to Egg in post 632, which I think illustrate clearly how I feel about MIss Destroyer. In summary: page 23 and meta point in the direction of Miss Destroyer being scum.

sword_of_omens hasn't done anything that made me change my townread on DBK. I'm liking his attitude and critical stance, and the way he filled in the role felt very natural. I think replacing in a scum makes it much more difficult to replace in naturally under the pressure of having to explain a hammer, yet he did it with such apparent ease I can't help but call him my main townread.

Egg is a worthy replacement of Horus when it comes to eloquence, but is still a nullread leaning town, though I guess given all the scumreads I already have, I should just put him in my townpile through process of elimination. I'd like him to respond to my questions to get a firmer read on how he thinks and what his motives are, because I do think both Horus (jumping on the Zionite-Malakittens associative tell with ease) and Egg (meta-reading HD) have made some strange decisions. But in general i have a feeling he can be trusted.

And now, without further ado,

VOTE: RachMarie

[Grimgroove]

THIS IS L-1 FOR RachMarie!!!!

[RachMarie]

Well you were wrong I am VT

I did not want the watcher revealing himself or herself, and I certainly can see why he or she would think I was scumz since I did visit Fuzzy even though I later forgot about it

Good luck town will watch from the dead thread.

Though you should have declared intent to hammer there Grim, I feel you are probably town

I feel that Wis is town

have doubts about Miss D and Mala, definitely keep an eye on them.

Egg seems towny from his first posts but ehhh keep an eye on him anyways til you have a better idea of his alignment

[RachMarie]

what do you mean L-1? you hammered or did someone else unvote?

[Egg]

GET YOUR VOTES OFF RACH!!!

How the fuck is that a scum slip? It's the exact opposite. She's now obvtown. Look at the confidence she has in the fact that SOMEONE ELSE also visited! Scum wouldn't take the gamble that the watcher comes out and says "uh, no. It was only you". I mean crafty scum would but this is Rach. Look how genuine she is in saying she breifly forgot she visited someone. She is town and should never be lynched.

Destroyer is town as fuck too. For those saying he's normally active, this is kind of true. His activity comes in spurts. He'll go away for a bit and then come back and post 12 times a page for a few pages. Then if the game is fast, he goes away again. If it's slow, he'll stick around. But as far as this game, when he's actually here, look at his specific posts and show me scum intent. It's not there. And if he was scum, it would be. I've never played with the other head so I can't meta it.

Now look at Mala. Sure, she's posting. She's active. But she's doing what is popular and won't stick out. Even from the very beginning of the game. She "likes" my slot at the very beginning. At that point, so does everyone else. And her language doesn't suggest a firm stance that will stick. She votes zionite early on and gives reasons, but the vote is because he's willing to unvote for a "compromise". Go back and look at zi's post. It's not that serious. Then she goes after the first thing to stick out. Bo's L-1 vote. Come on, he obviously just wanted reactions. Mala is smart enough to know this. She's also smart enough to know that it could gain traction if she shows issue with it. Same idea as the Bo thing when she points out that fuzzy seems "different". More active and giving opinions. Yes, he's gaining experience. That's why he's different. Should be easy to pick up when you've played a newbie game or two and can spot a newbie from a player who is transitioning out of newbiness. Then there's the thing where she votes miss destroyer for something dumb and then when it's pointed out that it's dumb, "oops, I misread". She's just muddying the waters wherever she can on anyone that might be a lynch target. This isn't genuine scumhunting. And this is a player who knows how to scumhunt so I don't buy this play at all.

vote mala

Let's get this day headed in the right direction.

[Grimgroove]

UNVOTE:

@RachMarie: No, that was not a hammer. Have you not seen JasonWazza's votecount on this very page? It's very hard to miss.

Egg, still rather convinced on RachMarie, but I'll hear you out.
But please don't ignore me. A kind reminder:

Rach, strategic lurking and inadvertant lurking have different feels to them. It's pretty easy to tell the difference once you learn how to differentiate.

Wisdom, there's our problem then. We are looking at meta from opposite heads of the hydra.

Could you explain your differentiation process when it comes to the forms of lurking? I'm not sure if I should call it lurking since Miss Destroyer has not been entirely inactive, but definitely in the beginning she was a non-presence, and considering she's actually a "they", being two players, how do you add that up with "inadvertant" lurking? Both players are normally very active (from what I hear in this topic, but it's also a general impression of mine because I've seen the names of both players pop-up quite a few times by now during my browsings on this forum), so wouldn't you expect this hydra to be active²?

What do you think of Miss Destroyer's scumhunting so far? The main thing that irks me is that it's limited, and the little that does happen is all through supposed associative tells, first Zionite-Malakittens, then RachMarie-Malakittens. I don't think associative tells provide a good basis for a scumhunt, I think it's quite easy to see an association between any two people one way or another if you just try hard enough. There's not much being said about "inherent" scumminess of people.

Also too much is blamed on the both of them not agreeing with each other. Inconsistent reads, strange word choices, hell, even the latest bout of inactivity was blamed on Mara by HD for her not warning him. It feels very much like a play to me. I assume HD has independent access to the Miss Destroyer account, why would he need Mara to inform him of this new daystart?



Also, could you clarify your reads from post 613? The only clarification I saw so far was your read on Miss Destroyer (meta), but given you apparently only looked at one side of the meta I don't find that very convincing. I also believe MAra was the most active head so far in this hydra, so could you explain your choice for looking at Destroyer's meta first?