Newbie 1368 - Will there ever be a title? (GAME OVER)

[Grimgroove]

I'm feeling alone inhere

Check post 630, there's a message for you inthere!

[Syryana]

Kay

[Syryana]

Why did the fact that the scumslip you thought you saw me make was no scumslip at all, automatically (?) result in a townread on me? Why couldn't I be scum who simply didn't slip?

I didn't get a townread on you because of the scumslip-that-never-was. I got a townread on you because you admitted that you thought I was being genuine. If you were scum you had some pretty solid reasons for lynching me and no reason whatsoever to doubt that. Instead you admitted your confusion: I still looked scummy, but you were having doubts about me cos of *reasons*. I thought that was genuine as hell and thus townread. If the whole scumslip thing hadn't happened then you'd have never said that and I wouldn't feel so good about you. I didn't mean that the scumslip thing cleared you, as david was pushing.

[Grimgroove]

This is incorrect.

No big deal, but for the record, the last quote in your post (#289) you have attributed to yourself, when I actually said it.

I'm not interested in credit.

Stuff happened, Grim townread resulted.

Scum slip: "is to be" vs "would be to be"
It's the same thing you tried to pull on Grim.

Noted.

At this point my vote was still on you, right after a readslist in which I called you scum.
It is only later, in post 315 where I start getting soft.
I'm starting to fear I have made a fatal mistake there. Your incorrect answer isn't helping my fears.
Who are your scumreads right now?

[Syryana]

At this point my vote was still on you, right after a readslist in which I called you scum.
It is only later, in post 315 where I start getting soft.
I'm starting to fear I have made a fatal mistake there. Your incorrect answer isn't helping my fears.
Who are your scumreads right now?

Huh. I thought your "getting soft" had come before I said that. I think what happened was at the time I agreed with David's logic on the truth behind the "slip" but I was ultimately more convinced by your "weakness".

Scumreads are Rach/Mothrax/homer.

Homer bothers me because he hasn't really put in any effort to investigate alternative reads; he's been tunnelling me pretty much exclusively all game (I believe he voted Rach once, but that's all). He's had suspects, but has made no particular movement to scumhunt or really do much of anything. He asks questions, yet does nothing with the answers. I don't really see any smooth flow with his suspect pool, either; he picks up and drops alternatives to me with no particular explanation as to why (#366, #454 stick out in particular, Rach's reads list should have in no way caused him to drop a scumread on her). ...

Rach is lurking like a boss, actively avoiding this game while being active elsewhere. Her reads list in #390 (her only actual post of substance) is pretty patently awful: buddying the heck out of homer, her reasoning for finding me scum is pure OMGUS, the whole thing is superficial and contains little in the way of actual analysis. Mothrax is also on this list; I really didn't like his(her?) entrance; he's not really explained any of his reads (or much of anything for that matter) in depth since replacing in. He pulls one post from me he doesn't like, one post from LnGrrR he did like, made some remarks on two things from Cand he didn't like. Reads are nebulous and I particularly don't care for how he explains away Rach's behavior as "Rach being Rach, it's null".

I'm not sure which of those three is Town (at least one of them must be, but I can't tell which). I don't like Mothrax's almost total lack of explanations (short of various I don't like this or that). Homer in particular bothers me; though he quickly unvoted yesterDay when I mentioned he's tunneling, toDay he comes back and immediately votes me again with no mention of introspection or whatever it was he promised to relook at yesterDay (i.e. the LnGrrR flip changed nothing, nor did his "step back"). The problem I have with Rach toDay is much the same as well; lurking, promises of things (where's the VCA?), etc.

What do you think, Grim? Who are you finding scummy currently? Other than me, naturally

[homertve]

It would be pretty dumb to jail you even if there is a JK. Jailing you might save your life, but it makes you basically useless as jail is a roleblock. Better to try to jail the killer IMO.

Syr, I disagree with you on that. Now, maybe it's because I'm new here (this is only my second game here), but if we have a JK in this game, and he would jail Candy, last night kill was prevented and our doctor was still alive. I understand what you are saying, but the bottom line of that is that if he would jail Candy we were in a better place right now, wouldn't we?

[Syryana]

Syr, I disagree with you on that. Now, maybe it's because I'm new here (this is only my second game here), but if we have a JK in this game, and he would jail Candy, last night kill was prevented and our doctor was still alive. I understand what you are saying, but the bottom line of that is that if he would jail Candy we were in a better place right now, wouldn't we?

Here's the thing though. Let's assume the JK jails Candi, and the scum attempts to kill Candi. Candi remains alive today. However, Candi is unable to use protection (hohoho) and the scum knows the JK is likely to jail him again the following night, giving scum free reign for other kills while the Doctor remains useless(thanks to the jail) and the JK is useless (due to tying up the Doc).

Furthermore, we as a town wouldn't know the reason for the no-kill in that scenario. JK could have jailed Candi. Candi could have protected someone else. Scum could have simply no-killed. There's a whole host of scenarios that could occur, many of which are bad for us (e.g. Candi protects someone, assumes that person is town due to no-kill and claims as much, when reality is JK jailed Candi and Candi was targeted, or scum no-killed and thus JK AND Candi make wrong assumptions about their targets, etc.)

We're getting a bit far afield here. Why are you bringing this up now? What are your responses to my case against you?

[homertve]

Here's the thing though. Let's assume the JK jails Candi, and the scum attempts to kill Candi. Candi remains alive today. However, Candi is unable to use protection (hohoho) and the scum knows the JK is likely to jail him again the following night, giving scum free reign for other kills while the Doctor remains useless(thanks to the jail) and the JK is useless (due to tying up the Doc).

"the scum knows the JK is likely to jail him again the following night" - why? I didn't say "jail candy on night 2 as well". It's not wise to do

that

. Jail him only on night 1, cause that's the night he'll most likely get the NK.

What "case" do you have against me, exactly? Yesterday I said I think both candy and LnG are town. And guess what? I was right. I unvoted you not because I thought you were town all of a sudden, but because I thought it's a good idea to re-think about it. I did. I think you are scum. Therefore I'm voting you. I know I could be tunneling again, and I really hope that's not the case and that my instincts are right.

Where are the other players? I want to hear them. There are at least two (maybe three) players that shared my feelings yesterday about you being a scum. What do you think now?

[homertve]

Also - where are the people who said we can learn something from LnG's lynch? What did we learn? Was it a good lynch?

[imkingdavid]

I am exhausted (long day at work; still not used to the new sleep schedule). But I promised a post, so here you go.

Let's please not waste time arguing hypothetical "what if the jk had jailed candi" and related stuff. It didn't happen. If it had (i.e. if there had been a no kill), we wouldn't know if it was because of that or for another reason. I don't understand why it was even brought up.

Something's bugging me about homer's play now. He tunnels Syr almost exclusively throughout Day 1, from RVS right up until there's a chance at Syr actually being lynched. Then he pulls his vote to "think about it a little longer". Note that at that point we're at about 21-ish hours to deadline (by my calculations). And given the fact that my hammer was ~5 hours from deadline, with the level of activity we had the only way we were going to get a lynch was to either hope that he suddenly came back and put Syr at L-1 and hope that someone else decides to hammer, or else go ahead and take the sure lynch that we ended up taking.

Also, in #594 he says:

Both LnG and Syr claimed themselves to be VT. Lynching either of them will give us at least something to work with tomorrow.

And now he asks (#658):

Also - where are the people who said we can learn something from LnG's lynch? What did we learn? Was it a good lynch?

Which sounds to me like he's trying to distance himself from it. Sure, he was never on the LnG wagon, but this whole "where at the people" bit following the previous bit I quoted, combined with him unvoting Syr before a lynch could be made just feels fishy to me. Feels to me like either he and Syr or scum and he's trying to distance himself without fully bussing Syr, or else he's scum with someone else and is trying to make himself sound good by distancing himself from the lynch wagon that he was at the very least in agreement with allowing to happen.

So there's that.

But to answer your questions:

What did we learn?

We learned that LnG was town.

Was it a good lynch?

Loaded question. There's an implied "no, you're wrong, I'm right" behind it. Obviously a scum lynch would be more beneficial. But a townie lynch isn't the end of the world. Until LyLo.

--------

There are at least two (maybe three) players that shared my feelings yesterday about you being a scum. What do you think now?

(the first "you" Syr, the second "you" is the "two (maybe three) players", one of whom is me)
I still don't like Syr's tunnel vision on Grim and Candi. One can argue that Syr's complete 180 in attitude once I pointed out his error is scummy because the "I'm stupid" bit becomes an AtE, but then again, what else are you going to do in that situation at this point, whether as town or scum?

With that being the only problem I can remember having with Syr during Day 1, sure I could still potentially support his lynch, but not before taking a look at some alternatives. Such as yourself.

[imkingdavid]

EBWOP:
"at this point" in the second to last paragraph above should be "at that point"

[Grimgroove]

At this point my vote was still on you, right after a readslist in which I called you scum.
It is only later, in post 315 where I start getting soft.
I'm starting to fear I have made a fatal mistake there. Your incorrect answer isn't helping my fears.
Who are your scumreads right now?

Huh. I thought your "getting soft" had come before I said that. I think what happened was at the time I agreed with David's logic on the truth behind the "slip" but I was ultimately more convinced by your "weakness".

Scumreads are Rach/Mothrax/homer.

Homer bothers me because he hasn't really put in any effort to investigate alternative reads; he's been tunnelling me pretty much exclusively all game (I believe he voted Rach once, but that's all). He's had suspects, but has made no particular movement to scumhunt or really do much of anything. He asks questions, yet does nothing with the answers. I don't really see any smooth flow with his suspect pool, either; he picks up and drops alternatives to me with no particular explanation as to why (#366, #454 stick out in particular, Rach's reads list should have in no way caused him to drop a scumread on her). ...

Rach is lurking like a boss, actively avoiding this game while being active elsewhere. Her reads list in #390 (her only actual post of substance) is pretty patently awful: buddying the heck out of homer, her reasoning for finding me scum is pure OMGUS, the whole thing is superficial and contains little in the way of actual analysis. Mothrax is also on this list; I really didn't like his(her?) entrance; he's not really explained any of his reads (or much of anything for that matter) in depth since replacing in. He pulls one post from me he doesn't like, one post from LnGrrR he did like, made some remarks on two things from Cand he didn't like. Reads are nebulous and I particularly don't care for how he explains away Rach's behavior as "Rach being Rach, it's null".

I'm not sure which of those three is Town (at least one of them must be, but I can't tell which). I don't like Mothrax's almost total lack of explanations (short of various I don't like this or that). Homer in particular bothers me; though he quickly unvoted yesterDay when I mentioned he's tunneling, toDay he comes back and immediately votes me again with no mention of introspection or whatever it was he promised to relook at yesterDay (i.e. the LnGrrR flip changed nothing, nor did his "step back"). The problem I have with Rach toDay is much the same as well; lurking, promises of things (where's the VCA?), etc.

What do you think, Grim? Who are you finding scummy currently? Other than me, naturally

I'm just going to ask you straight up since I'm a sucker for codes: is there a reason why you capitalized those D's in the words that have "day" in it?

[Grimgroove]

I'm going to re-read D1 this weekend, knowing what we know now, and get back to you guys later.
I hope Core isn't going to dissappear on us again, that slot seems to be jinxed.
And where's RachMarie?

[homertve]

Which sounds to me like he's trying to distance himself from it. Sure, he was never on the LnG wagon, but this whole "where at the people" bit following the previous bit I quoted, combined with him unvoting Syr before a lynch could be made just feels fishy to me. Feels to me like either he and Syr or scum and he's trying to distance himself without fully bussing Syr, or else he's scum with someone else and is trying to make himself sound good by distancing himself from the lynch wagon that he was at the very least in agreement with allowing to happen.

Of course I'll "allow" that lynch to "happen". I wouldn't go for a NL beacuse that's not good for the town. The "at least something to work with" remark was just that - I wanted to here what those who were on LnG's wagon (which I wasn't one of them) will say after his lynch, and that way we can "work with"

those

posts. However, nobody said anything about it yet (or at least nothing significant. No, "we learned that he's town" doesn't count).

the only way we were going to get a lynch was to either hope that he suddenly came back and put Syr at L-1 and hope that someone else decides to hammer, or else go ahead and take the sure lynch that we ended up taking.

It sounds like you are trying to justify the lynch. I (nor anybody else) wasn't accusing you that it was a bad lynch at those circumstances.

With that being the only problem I can remember having with Syr during Day 1

It's not the only problem with Day-1-Syr. The main problem with him (at least for me) is his scumslip here:

Also, Grim is very good at appearing reasonable and logical as either alignment.

[homertve]

However, I want to talk about another thing.

Day 2 began two and a half days ago. Seven of us left. While Grim, David, Syr and me were actually talking about this game, we have these three:

1. Core - Said nothing significant, or as Grim said:

ok now that we're here how was that a good end to day 1? what makes it so bad to have a no lynch?

I don't like this post at all. Productivity zero.

VOTE: Core_H86

2. mothrax - The only think she had to say was about the way I didn't bemoan the night kill. Again - Productivity zero.

3. RachMarie - Said nothing specific about this game. Talked only about why NL on day 1 is never a good thing.

What if Syr is actually town? If two of those three are the scums, they would sit back, enjoy the mutual accusations between me and him (and the suspects David has about both of us) and continue to make posts without an actual content. I already said earlier in this game (366) that I have three suspects - Syr, mothrax and Rach. You can add Core to that list and maybe give Syr the benefit of the doubt for now.

I think I'll just
UNVOTE: Syr
VOTE: Core

[homertve]

2. mothrax - The only think she had to say...

Should be "the only

thing

", of course.

[Core_H86]

I'm going to re-read D1 this weekend, knowing what we know now, and get back to you guys later.
I hope Core isn't going to dissappear on us again, that slot seems to be jinxed.
And where's RachMarie?

No I'm here just trying to catch up

[RachMarie]

Im here Im here...

have we gotten an updated vc yet?

[Core_H86]

since your on right now and you haven't said much recently what are you reads? I feel my reads changing so much I just keep rereading since I can't get a solid feel I don't feel caught up

[Syryana]

I'm just going to ask you straight up since I'm a sucker for codes: is there a reason why you capitalized those D's in the words that have "day" in it?

Yes. ToDay = this game Day. Today = this MeatWorld day. Sometimes I forget, but I try not to.

I like David's #659, particularly the bit about homer's switch from "LnGrrR will give us info" to "What info did we get from LnGrrR". Though I will say that homer's unvote in whatever post that was seems more likely a knee-jerk reaction to my calling him on his tunneling moreso than "distancing". Unless we're talking about different unvotes.

Im here Im here...

have we gotten an updated vc yet?

Why do you need a VC to talk about goings on? Reads? Thoughts on Lngrr flip? Thoughts on toDay's lynch target? Hmm?

Also, I'm not lynching Core, ever. Dude's town as fuck.

[Grimgroove]

Also, I'm not lynching Core, ever. Dude's town as fuck.

Are you serious?

[Syryana]

Are you serious?

Yes. Why?

[imkingdavid]

@mod - Vote count, please.

Are you serious?

Yes. Why?

"Why?" is what I'd like to ask you. What makes him pro-town to you? He's done nothing this entire game, aside from say we should no-lynch and then blame us for lynching someone that ended up pro-town.

In fact, reading his ISO, he has contributed absolutely 0 to this game. In his ISO #17 he is still "patching things together" (Friday, June 07).

One week later

(Saturday, June 15), he is still "trying to catch up" (ISO #22). Despite not being caught up in the game, he has posted 24 times, which means he's not lurking; he's here, and he's actively trying to appear active. But he's said and done nothing.

So core: who do you find suspicious, and why?

-----

I like David's #659, particularly the bit about homer's switch from "LnGrrR will give us info" to "What info did we get from LnGrrR". Though I will say that homer's unvote in whatever post that was seems more likely a knee-jerk reaction to my calling him on his tunneling moreso than "distancing". Unless we're talking about different unvotes.

I wasn't saying the unvote was distancing, I was saying that the fact that he's been voting you this whole time could be seen as distancing. I was saying the unvote was scum-him trying not to bus scum-you.

[homertve]

David, the fact I was voting Syr the whole time is merely a coincidence. I vote him in my first post here when I thought him unvoting Grim was because they were both scums. I dropped that idea after that, and simply didn't unvote him up to where he made his scumslip, and then I wanted to vote him again, and found out I actually didn't unvote him. That's all.

Syr, I would also like to know why do you think Core is town.

[homertve]

I vote him in my first post

Should be "I

voted

him", of course. Sorry.