Mini 1475: War in the Middle East Mafia (Game Over)

[Titus]

I like these initial reads. Withdrawing intent to hammer.

Does "like" mean you agree with them, or you like the line of reasoning his using even if you disagree?

The second. I, for instance, have only seen Marquis as scum. He replaced into a slot that had gotten suspicion off him. Within 5 posts, everyone thought he was scum and he was.

The post delineates independent thought and a willingness to risk annoying he hammerer me, by highlighting what he saw about me, which was right

Your Troubles Will Cease (4): waynegg, BROseidon, Marquis, Baezu
Baezu (1): rhyx
waynegg (1): T S O
T S O (2): Your Troubles Will Cease, Salt n Pepper
killerjester (1): Titus
Not Voting: Ten_Heavens, killerjester

With 11 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.
Deadline is Monday, August 5th at 9 PM Eastern Time.

[waynegg]

Waynegg, why did you edit Salt and Pepper's post to something that dramatcally changed the meaning? I see no town motivation for that.

Playing with and fucking with are pretty much the same thing. I see people put subliminal messages in their stuff all the time. I've been leaning scum on S&P for a while. This wasn't the first subliminal I pointed out, and that was the most profound way I could think of to do so.

[BROseidon]

Got it. Glad to know I don't need to vote for you right now.

Still think troubles lynch is okay, but probably not optimal today, so

UNVOTE:

Wayne, do you think that the S&P/TSO interaction could be scum-theatre? I don't, and I'm biasing towards TSO being the scum out of the two of them (I'm pretty sure one of them is scum).

[Marquis]

playing can also refer to playing a mafia game but if you want to attack the hydra i'm all for it

[Titus]

Waynegg, why did you edit Salt and Pepper's post to something that dramatcally changed the meaning? I see no town motivation for that.

Playing with and fucking with are pretty much the same thing. I see people put subliminal messages in their stuff all the time. I've been leaning scum on S&P for a while. This wasn't the first subliminal I pointed out, and that was the most profound way I could think of to do so.

Playing with the way he was using it likely meant allied with. Playing with someone = allied with. For instance, masons play with other masons.

@Marquis, Get your hands dirty if you think someone is worth pressuring.

[Marquis]

nah let me just lurk a bit more

[waynegg]

Got it. Glad to know I don't need to vote for you right now.

Still think troubles lynch is okay, but probably not optimal today, so

UNVOTE:

Wayne, do you think that the S&P/TSO interaction could be scum-theatre? I don't, and I'm biasing towards TSO being the scum out of the two of them (I'm pretty sure one of them is scum).

I think it

could

be. I've been basing TSO scum since early this game day so that's not going to hurt my feelings. I think YTWC was stalling for time when it came to claim time so I still don't like him. S&P I've been going back and forth on, but a lot of their stuff has hit me sideways. I'll detail it when I have the time for more than a quick reply, likely this evening, but sooner if I can.

Got it. Glad to know I don't need to vote for you right now.

Still think troubles lynch is okay, but probably not optimal today, so

UNVOTE:

Wayne, do you think that the S&P/TSO interaction could be scum-theatre? I don't, and I'm biasing towards TSO being the scum out of the two of them (I'm pretty sure one of them is scum).

Waynegg, why did you edit Salt and Pepper's post to something that dramatcally changed the meaning? I see no town motivation for that.

Playing with and fucking with are pretty much the same thing. I see people put subliminal messages in their stuff all the time. I've been leaning scum on S&P for a while. This wasn't the first subliminal I pointed out, and that was the most profound way I could think of to do so.

Playing with the way he was using it likely meant allied with. Playing with someone = allied with. For instance, masons play with other masons.

@Marquis, Get your hands dirty if you think someone is worth pressuring.

Only if you choose to read it that way. It works the other way just the same which was my whole point in pointing it out. It's duplicitous as fuck and shouldn't go by unchallenged.

[waynegg]

I've gotta figure out why I keep getting double quotes. It's wearing me out...

[T S O]

TSO is scummy. His vote on Wayne egg was bad. Wasting an ability is not scummy and scum would totally not claim they used their vig, which is partially why I tink Troubles is town. TSO attacks us for attacking wayne egg even if his vote is on wayne egg.

Here:

I gotta say that completely outside the game I fucking despise political correctness and empathise with way on that. And Salt and Pepper, you're acting like an obtuse fool. I've played with both of you previously and neither of you were so stubborn or bull-headed. Stop bringing waynegg into this, stop focusing on him calling people VI's, forget he exists, stop goading and comment on the goddamn case instead of constantly evading.

yo Titus, perhaps you should do something yourself instead of making a deal out of nothing about borkjerfkin, then saying waynegg plays like you, so you think he's scum, hmm?

The issue here is that us supposedly calling people Vi when it was wayne who started the whole issue.

And his whole "Majiffy who do you think is scum" thing. So unhelpful

Which is why I think TSO is scummy.

And I dont think we should give Baezu a free pass at the mason claim when its pretty easy for scum to claim mason in a game with no flips. Plus the assurance of TSO by saying Baeu is town is also something suspicious imo

I think this is town Titus btw, I've seen her town and scum games. She's more
"attack my attackers" as scum.
DP

There's not one thing which actually implicates me here. It's fluffy as fuck. I hope this isn't the TSO-scum case, because it's terrible. It has no damning evidence, there's barely anything in it and what's in it is plain wrong.

[waynegg]

Wayne, do you think that the S&P/TSO interaction could be scum-theatre? I don't, and I'm biasing towards TSO being the scum out of the two of them (I'm pretty sure one of them is scum).

But, if you're looking for scum theater, look no further than this...

I'll claim and provide a full read list if there's intent to hammer.

Intent to hammer if readlist or claim sucks.

Claiming Oman, VT.
I'll type up a reads list tomorrow. Unless that's this "stalling" thing you keep accusing me of, in which case hammer away.

Actually, you know what, I don't trust you bastards as far as I can throw you. I'll get the important ones down now and fill in the rest tomorrow.

Baezu: Initially I thought that she was scummy, vague and hedgy, so I planted my vote there and left it. But then she claimed and I believed her so I removed it. But that L-1 out of the blue combined with some really weird mixtures of intent in #532 has rekindled my suspicion (crossreference "I'm conftown!" with "I realise it doesn't confirm me as town and that was not my intention"). Watch her tomorrow, and don't let her slip by. Scum.

TSO: Yeah. See above. Scumzorx.

killerjester: If he sheeps Waynegg mindlessly tomorrow, lynch it. If he starts to think for himself, probably town. (Key word being "mindlessly".)

Marquis: I'm not happy with you doing fuck all today, it doesn't fit with what I think of as Marquistown (not that I've ever seen you as scum.) I'm willing to go with Waynegg's meta on you, but for God's sake, if you're town you have some work to do tomorrow to make up for today. Lazy. I mean, Town.

Rhyx: Not as many posts, but I can see exactly where he's coming from in all of them. Verytown.

Titus: I can't pinpoint anything, but a lot of her posts seem non-committal. This is the most gut of all my reads, and I don't have much to substantiate it with, but she's on the scummy side of null.

And the most important of all: Waynegg. Yes, he's town. But that doesn't mean he's right. If town sheeps him, we will lose, and I'm convinced of that. So please, for the love of God, think for yourselves.

I like these initial reads. Withdrawing intent to hammer.

[T S O]

I've cooled on Baezu, so I'm letting my other head follow up on TSO.
TSO and Broseidon I've noticed have been following Wayne quite closely and I don't like it. TSO in particular seems keen on getting Wayne's opinion on everything, which to me seems dissonant with his vote on him (which has been parked since 142, someone freaking explain that to me???). Upon quick glance at his ISO, TSO has been posting just enough to seem an active town contributor, but he doesn't really follow any one lead for very long, so I get the feeling he could be trying to scoot by.

- pi

I don't think I've been asking waynegg anything much at all. Quote.

[T S O]

btw Dr. Pepper's read on TSO is like... the bad kind of omgus actually. I dislike his read on TSO being scum because "unhelpful" when it came to talking with Majiffy.

totally looks like the reasoning molded around the vote, rather than reading TSO as scum first

(not that TSO isn't scummy himself btw, I personally disliked how his response to YTWC is pretty much a combination of "you can't attack me for that" and "you're trying to discredit me so I'll just calmly discredit you and try to brush this off as nothing". like... I see no actual solid defense there, just redirection and "lolnope"??)

pitoli how do you feel about your other head wanting TSO lynched? do you agree? and either way of your opinion, explain~

firstly, you scumbag, you got my rep in the mario kart noc

but yeah you're right, that's exactly what I did. but look at his accusations: do you really think they can be solidly defended?

[waynegg]

I just want to know is there anything ..unique about your role PM. If you're some kind of JOAT I don't care, but if you're say, immune to poison or being roleblocked, having a timer on your daykill eg. it expires on d3 or some Majiffy shit, if you're a Miller, if you're vengeful, etc. etc.

Sorry for this being so convoluted, but I'm trying to mentally clarify stuff I'm thinking about here.

The end of his campaign to role~fish me.

Here, you're snarky, reactionary, and egocentric.

Snarky and egocentric aren't tells, and reactionary is a stretch. As to the playstyle, I could be trying something differently since "playing it cool" got me lynched last time.

The problem with that is I just got through looking at all your games. You've never had scum (marathons don't count before you go there) and playing it cool is how you town. Quite successfully actually as a whole, so changing that based on one outcome is unbelievable.

There's also some cognitive dissonance in your posts.

pedit ~ Yeah. Not sharing anything like that. Sorry. It would benefit scum and I'm not into helping

you

them make their night choices.

Where I curtail his fishing trip.

nnnnnnnnnnggghhhhhh.

Reeks to high heaven as caught scum.

I'm very busy atm getting butthurt over how TSO managed to escape a lylo lynch and win a completed game

I actually don't know what you mean

Unless you mean the home forum?

"Actually" this is well overemphasized.

it's not really self-conceived.

but even in the event I suspected you enough to pull a wagon on you, I wouldn't be able to today. I'm deciding which one of the cases I find more appealing before I vote.

AtE, though he clearly suspects me of nothing and has stated as much, plainly, several times.

Why not, let's hear it.

Looking for something to wifom around.

Let's not do that.

First of all, I was checking to see if I was stumped. I'm not, so:
UNVOTE:

I finished my readthrough, made some notes, came up with fuck all. So I did another readthrough with the assistance of alcohol, made some notes, and I'm writing up what I found now. It boils down to me thinking that TSO is scum. Stay with me here.

My main reason is that he has been half-heartedly defending me every now and then, popping in with a

YTWC is a potential Town, but not quite sure.

here, and a

YTWC isn't scum atm

there. Towncred for when I flip, gets to look as though he isn't scum trying to off a townie quickly.

He dumped his vote on Waynegg early on, then hasn't moved it despite saying that it is useless, though that's a playstyle thing more than anything. Then there's the confusing mess of him having Waynegg as his main scum suspect, yet being eager to hear his theories and being (mock?) over the top when it's a reaction test. Regardless, if he's deciding which case looks more appealing, why isn't he doing anything personally to help him decide? Asking the mod who is scum hasn't got the best success rate iirc.

Final point: he keeps bringing up WIFOM.

I can't help but feel a slight sense of mindfuck

Alternatively, you're fucking with us by banking on the fact we don't think scum would do that.

But it's all WIFOM, unfortunately.

Guys, why would he bomb an obvTownie so he could potentially catch scum with a gambit?

Unless you have a reason to, bringing up WIFOM theories just fogs everything up. The more I read your iso, the more I realise that I don't know what you're thinking at all.

Firstly, you're not being lynched, so I don't know where that's coming from in terms of me getting towncred when you flip.
There are reasons for the second part which I'm not divulging.
Finally, quote 1 isn't WIFOM, quote 2 is me talking out loud and ...admitting it's WIFOM, and quote 3 is a conclusion, not WIFOM.

Aaand that's your case.

On second thought, maybe this is scum theater. The second part couldn't be answered because it would divulge their alignment. 115 (in the multiquote) is hedged for a net no stance.

btw Dr. Pepper's read on TSO is like... the bad kind of omgus actually. I dislike his read on TSO being scum because "unhelpful" when it came to talking with Majiffy.

totally looks like the reasoning molded around the vote, rather than reading TSO as scum first

(not that TSO isn't scummy himself btw, I personally disliked how his response to YTWC is pretty much a combination of "you can't attack me for that" and "you're trying to discredit me so I'll just calmly discredit you and try to brush this off as nothing". like... I see no actual solid defense there, just redirection and "lolnope"??)

pitoli how do you feel about your other head wanting TSO lynched? do you agree? and either way of your opinion, explain~

firstly, you scumbag, you got my rep in the mario kart noc

but yeah you're right, that's exactly what I did. but look at his accusations: do you really think they can be solidly defended?

And this is hedged as fuck too.

So...

TYVM
TSO
Titus

[T S O]

okay, you made 8 accusations. 5 of them are based on me not revealing a certain point of information, 1 is you blaming me on WIFOM and one is you implying me talking to Marquis about a game I played is somehow overemphasized. I'll give you the last one, since I can see how it could appear scummy, but I stand by my case that they were stupid questions which were easily answered and weren't scummy at all. I also Googled "hedging, linguistics" and got this page, which seems to have a different definition of hedging to you. so yeah. whatever I was doing, it wasn't hedging.

[waynegg]

Blaming you on wanting something to work with to create wifom, yep.

The other has to do with word choices and is needlessly overemphasized. Has nothing to do with what you were talking about.

Thanks for focussing on the two weakest points to attack.

~ and ~

Hedging

5. A word or phrase, such as possibly or I think, that mitigates or weakens the certainty of a statement.

[killerjester]

Part of the reason I wanted Troubles to claim the pattern was because if his pattern was consistent with the non-religious pattern that MY role PM indicates, it would suggest that he is town. He passes. While scum often receive safe fakeclaims in themes, because some players may be unfamiliar with the flavor of the game, it's usually something along the lines of, "You are aware that Maroon is not in the game," (if I'm keeping up the extended metaphor) - I seldom see fakeclaims that include description of traits inherent to town flavor, unrelated to the actual game.

Yes town roles DO seem to be Muslim, and yes if scum have fakeclaims it's likely they ARE Muslim-dominant countries, but it would be unlikely for Troubles to have a Muslim fakeclaim AND fakeflavor that talks about "defending his religion." So he's town.

My work break is almost over but I'll get in a reread tonight and hopefully see some new leads.

Townlist:
Troubles
Waynegg

[waynegg]

5 of them are based on me not revealing a certain point of information,....

One. Just one.

[T S O]

"I actually don't know what you mean

Unless you mean the home forum?"

My home forum has like 3 active members here, and I recently won a game there

Some guy who I have never seen or heard of before randomly comments on me winning a game, but I haven't won any games on MS in a while at that stage, since they're all ongoing

Therefore, it's completely natural to ask is he referring to my home forum or not.

And there's exactly one word of emphasis in the first sense.

So if your strongest avenue of attack is me having one extra word in a post, then I don't feel it's really worth addressing that much.

pedit: wrong, 5/

As for you suggesting a theory, I have no idea why closing my mind off completely to anything we haven't discussed yet is Town whatsoever.

[T S O]

* there's exactly one word of emphasis in the first sentence.
also, brb eating.

[Marquis]

try so hard

[waynegg]

* there's exactly one word of emphasis in the first sentence.
also, brb eating.

And it's unnecessary because it adds nothing to the meaning of the sentence. And it's the smallest point in my case which you've chose to centralize on.

We can lynch this.

@KJ that's weak. I doubt anyone has a role pm that doesn't in some way allude to that. To call it out specifically as religion versus societal, though, gives me a moment's pause on you and makes me want to lynch YTWC that much more.

[BROseidon]

Yes town roles DO seem to be Muslim, and yes if scum have fakeclaims it's likely they ARE Muslim-dominant countries, but it would be unlikely for Troubles to have a Muslim fakeclaim AND fakeflavor that talks about "defending his religion." So he's town.

This is a horrible line of thought and you should feel bad.

[T S O]

* there's exactly one word of emphasis in the first sentence.
also, brb eating.

And it's unnecessary because it adds nothing to the meaning of the sentence. And it's the smallest point in my case which you've chose to centralize on.

We can lynch this.

No, I'm really not accepting that me having one word, however unnecessary it may be, is a scumtell.

You keep alluding to me focusing on the small part of your case. What IS the large part of your case then?

[waynegg]

It's a case on lying or being deceptive and I'm not looking for your approval. That one word. The other 6 points would be the large part. I was pretty blunt about the scum theater, the hedging, the AtE, the role fishing, the hedging of statements, the statement of caught scum. How could you possibly miss those?

[Titus]

nah let me just lurk a bit more

No. Absolutely not.


Waynegg, the moment I call you out for trumping up a case on SnP, you have me in your scum list with "scum theatre". Exactly the kind of OMGUS reaction, people seem to think you are town but my opinion of you continues to decline. I am now at null leaning scum. There's just not reason for your behavior. Your activity level suggests town but your behavior is suggesting scum. No one should feel the need to modify posts to do that. If I stuck something in quotes that wasn't said by that person in real life, I would face dire consequences. However, all I can do is vote you for your acts and your totally unapologetic nature (basically SnP's scum so he deserved it).

VOTE: Waynegg