Micro 214 -- Chosen Mafia (Game Over)

[JKMatthews]

You're now just arguing the definition of the word "bad". Read the quote. If the arguments about Alex are about making him look bad rather than trying to determine his alignment, they are bad arguments to use for scum hunting. This is petty nonsense.

And that.. just, wow. How can you possibly say that's exactly what I was doing? That's insane fearmongering. My theory is that Amrun's scum and I'm chosen. or Amrun's off her meds.

[Amrun]

You can make perfectly sound arguments for why someone is scum and still not be interested in their alignment.

Of course I don't KNOW what you were doing. Do I have to be so redundant as to re-state that it is my opinion every five seconds?

To reiterate, you were both subtly discrediting OMGL while simultaneously trying to redirect OMGL's negative attention back onto me. That's very scummy.

[JKMatthews]

Sure, but you're still just arguing the definition of the word "bad", which is very much in line with you not actually scumhunting.

No, you don't, but I'm saying that just because you've come up with some elaborate explanation that, sure, COULD BE true, it doesn't mean that it is. If I was lynched to be scum, you've found an explanation for what I was doing. However, starting from a "I wonder if JKM is scum or not?" point of view, it doesn't make sense to call me scum because of your little story. It's either self-fulfilling confirmation bias, or confirmation bias from an earlier suspicion of yours.

To reiterate, no I wasn't. I'm interested in OGML's argument as well as if he's still suspicious of you. If OGML didn't still suspect you just because something better became along, then he'd be fully diserving of any discredit that came from there. It's why I asked - the switch seemed sudden so I'm trying to grasp the motivation.

If you want to tell me why you suspect me, rather than the conclusions you've made after the fact, go for it. Otherwise forgive me for dismissing your arguments as nonsense.

[Amrun]

I'm not at all arguing over the definition of the word bad. And, once again, OGML wasn't even talking about Alexcellent himself. He said the arguments for Alexscum looked like scum arguments -- this was CLEAR from his post -- and then proceeded to name Alex's top two detractors as scum reads (me and you). Your response was to try and stop OMGL from internally clearing Alex as town because of this, which has obvious scum motivation.

I suspect you because this behavior is a consistent pattern across the thread, which is consistent with a scum agenda and image consciousness, but do you think I expect to convince you to vote yourself or something? Wtf is that?

Your own narrative of what you were doing just doesn't make sense. It was not a sudden switch. From the get go, OMGL's two top suspects have been me and you. It is not a sudden cause for concern, or a strange 180, that after a line of inquiry with me (or even none at all), he should switch his vote to you.

[JKMatthews]

OGML started with "Also thinking Alex is town because..." How is that not talking about him? Even if it's not the absolute point of the statement, it's still part of the statement, and one that I thought was worth questioning. My reaction was to question his logic. You are being absolutely ridiculous here.

Ok, there we go! You finally said something that isn't just confirmation bias (sort of). You're still imbuing meaning in my words based on assumption, but at least it's base-level scum hunting.
And no, I don't want you to convince me to vote myself. I think you're scum, and I was pointing out flaws in your logic because there were flaws that it was in town's interest to point out.

Sudden in terms of new information that came to light between his votes on you and me. You seem very quick to defend his choice now that it means you're not the focus of inquiry...

[Narrow]

Prod received. Sorry for the poor activity; I'll catch up in the morning.

[Amrun]

You're right; I could have spoken a little clearer. My point is that you're arguing with his townread in a weird way. You're not saying, "the arguments are good" (when he never said they were bad in the first place), you're saying "even though the arguments are bad, that doesn't mean alex is town."

I'm actually very free of confirmation bias this game. That's not to say I'm not afflicted by it from time to time, but not this game. I'm pretty emotionally unattached as of yet. The thing is that you keep accusing me of it, which is pretty weird for someone with his vote on me. Only town can have confirmation bias. You've also just said I'm scumhunting.

And that's exactly what I'm saying. Your espoused views don't reflect what I'd expect of time. They're hedging. Alex's "getting into the game" post was met with a "well he seems better, but maybe he's trying to manipulate me," giving him a townread but leaving a foot in the door to scumread him again later. You try to discredit OMGL while trying to manipulate his vote at the same time.

[JKMatthews]

I think you're suffering the same thing you were accusing me of, though. I was only ever questioning the odd logic OGML presented. The fact that it was directed towards Alex is incidental (well, mostly. With Alex high on my scumread list I was probably more susceptible to noticing it).

Sure, only town can have strict confirmation bias, but this is back to the chainsaw defense thing again I think. I was pointing out that your arguments were fallacious, and not pieces of evidence. Scum can still present arguments that rely on their phony 'conclusions' to support the premise.
And yes, I did say you were showing evidence of scum hunting. If you don't have to constantly redundantly say "this is what I think", I don't see why you'd expect me to say "or something that emulates it" after statements of your protown actions.

That's exactly what I was doing with Alex, but why is that scummy? Alex seemed to up his game, so I'm as suspicious as I once was, but it doesn't mean he's clear from suspicion altogether...
Once again, never tried to discredit OGML or manipulate his vote. Just questioned him on the vote change.

[Amrun]

What exactly am I "suffering" from? How?

(Fair enough about the scumhunting comment.)

[Jake from State Farm]

@ amrun, maybe I missed it but I still don't see what you see is deflection. Omg said he would post more about Jk when he got a computer. Jk responds asking him when he will get a computer.

Where's the deflection? If anything hes trying to get omg to post his case. That's not deflection at all and it certainly isn't slimy

[Jake from State Farm]

after reading this recent exchange between amrun and jk, Amrun looks horrible.

but what I hate even more is why OMG changed his vote from Amrun to JK shortly after JK votes amrun. I see nothing that JK said that was even remotely scummy, in fact it was probably the most logical assessment in the most recent pages.

vote: omg

I really want to vote amrun but she's just guilty of piss poor logic and bad play, omg needs a little motivation to explain his vote switch cause I honestly don't see the progression of that vote switch. Maybe once he explains it I will re-evaluate and vote amrun, but until he does...

[JKMatthews]

I'm not sure what I meant by that, my tired brain seemed to think there was one more level of things going on than there is...
I just mean I had a go at OGML for faulty logic relating to Alex, when it was actually the logic that I cared about, not Alex. Now you're implying I was slandering Alex, when actually I only cared about OGML's logic.
And yes, I am saying "even though the arguments are bad [by whatever definition], that doesn't make Alex town". It should be a total null on Alex, that's where the confusion is coming from...

P-Edit: Jake, if OGML was scum, why would he change his vote after I voted Amrun? Explain the scum motivation there? Surely it only makes sense if Amrun is also scum, and that scum team seems unlikely to me...

[Jake from State Farm]

well yeah, that's my thinking. I don't see that scenario unlikely at all.

[OhGodMyLife]

Look, I never said the arguments against Alex were "bad." I never said anything about the quality at all. I was talking about what looked like the motivation behind the arguments being made. Town motivation would be to determine Alex's alignment. Scum motivation would be to simply make Alex look scummy. I perceived the latter. JK seems like a bright guy and I have a hard time believing he actually misunderstood this. He's doubling down on his misrep because he got called on it.

My theory is that Amrun's scum and I'm chosen.

I've been waiting for someone to conjecture they must be the chosen one. Personally I consider this a scumtell as well, though I'm not really expecting anyone else to buy it.

I had a different theory heading into this game, which was that if I were to level an attack at a chosen one we'd see a quick happy follow from a scum onto whatever chosen one wagon I was spearheading. To me that looks like what happened when I voted Amrun, and shortly thereafter we had JKMatthews hopping on the Amrun wagon.

And as an aside to those who were discussing the Chainsaw Defense scumtell. I still buy into the Tarhalindur version of this tell, and it is a tell that is difficult to apply without seeing a scumflip. That said,

if

JKMatthews flips scum, I'll be gunning straight for Jake from State Farm, whose whole vote for me is predicated on discrediting and attacking the attacker of JKMatthews.

[Jake from State Farm]

no my vote is predicated that your vote switch made absolutely no sense (and actually looked like you were chainsaw defending amrun) and your content is drastically lacking

but nice try

[Jake from State Farm]

I had a different theory heading into this game, which was that if I were to level an attack at a chosen one we'd see a quick happy follow from a scum onto whatever chosen one wagon I was spearheading

first of all doesn't scum get a chance to veto 1 person from being chosen? If so and amrun is town I absolutely think scum would have veto'd amrun because she is a tough cookie to lynch.

but you can't use 1 vote to prove your theory, you would have to analyze all the little wagons.

hohum, amrun, jk all have questionable vote patterns. Narrow also has 1 questionable vote.

holy fuck I forgot hohum scum was here. ok I revise my earlier statement, you/amrun can't both be scum because hohum is confirmed (btw, he vote hopped twice and once on runner who is almost definitely a chosen imo)

[RedCoyote]

Vote Count 1 - 6

• Amrun

  (2) (F-16_Fighting_Falcon - JKMatthews)

  
  JKMatthews

  (2) (OhGodMyLife - Amrun)
  
  
  Alexcellent
  (1) (runnerman -

  Amrun

  )
  
  
  Jake from State Farm
  (1) (hohum)
  
  
  runnerman
  (1) (Alexcellent)
  
  
  OhGodMyLife
  (1) (Jake from State Farm)
  
  
  hohum

  (0) (

  Jake from State Farm

  )
  
  
  Not Voting
  (1) (Narrow)

With nine alive, it takes five to lynch.
Current Deadline:

(expired on 2013-08-26 11:17:00)

[Amrun]

I doubt I would be the veto in this situation, actually. (Man, to one group of players, I'm the weak link easy lynch, and to the other, I'm an intimidating lynch. How weird.) It depends on who the scum is. If JKM is scum it's possible, though.

If Falcon is scum, OMGL is almost certainly a chosen one.

[Jake from State Farm]

I don't think I have ever seen you lynched( I guess it's possible we have played and you got lynched. All my games are blurring together.) What game were you called an easy lynch?

I said you were most likely because tbh you are the only one I remember playing with and your town game is pretty decent, though I do mis-read you often. It's why I am having trouble with you again here because imo your game this time isn't as decent as I remember.

i'd do just about anything for a hohum lynch but after looking back I am the only one who suspects him, which to me confirms he is scum. scum lynches are difficult to achieve and he is impossible to achieve.

[Amrun]

I get lynched a lot. Any game with an exclusively older crowd means I'm on the rocks from page 1. They read my playstyle as pretty scummy, among other things.

My point is I'm not a universally intimidating player, and with OMGL and hohum in the game (and even you since you're an alt) it's probably not me.

[Amrun]

For example, in my "best town" scummy I was lynched Day 1 for the only town lynch of the game. -.- People scumfucked onto my wagon, though, which is part of what made the game so cake after that.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

I get a mild townread on JKMatthews from the first few pages. Him pursuing Alexcellent makes sense. He was trying to initiate discussion and get the game out of RVS. Narrow also reads slightly town based on 66. I find it less likely that scum would intentionally draw attention to themselves by prompting discussion of the way they wagoned.

Amrun reads even more fishy based on her subsequent questions. I said I'd elaborate on my suspicions of her so let's take a look from the beginning.

VOTE: OhGodMyLife
I've never played with but heard quite a bit about him.

An RVS vote from me.

What have you heard about him?

Amrun initiates discussion. Innocent enough.

However, the timing of this struck me as fishy:

Falcon, answer my question to you?
Runnerman, what do you mean by "looking for people reads?"

If we were still in RVS and there was no serious discussion going on, it makes sense to generate discussion. However, this occurred in page 3 where we ad plenty to discuss. My initial suspicion was that Amrun wanted to look town by meticulously following up on every question. But the content of the answer is largely irrelevant compared with actual game related discussion that has taken place.

She follows it up with more unreasonable suspicions:

I doubt I would be the veto in this situation, actually. (Man, to one group of players, I'm the weak link easy lynch, and to the other, I'm an intimidating lynch. How weird.) It depends on who the scum is. If JKM is scum it's possible, though.

If Falcon is scum, OMGL is almost certainly a chosen one.

In the long scheme of things, I get the impression that she is trying to set up mislynches and misdirections. First, asking me about OGML, then demanding an answer even after non-RVS discussion took place, and then tying me to OGML implying that if he is chosen, I am scum although she cleverly puts it the other way around.

[Jake from State Farm]

I certainly would not be exempt because I was a replacement and the person I replaced I have never heard of.

I am hoping to get to a computer tomorrow (today is a long work day me) but I really want to analyze all the little wagons. I know for a fact hohum has been 3rd or later on a wagon twice, You and JK also had 1 or 2 iirc.

once I do that I may be able to narrow it down better.

[Amrun]

I forgot you were a replacement, jake.

Falcon, what is your experience with mafia?

[runnerman]

@F16 that's quite some categorical thinking you're using with "RVS phase" etc. The games I started on mafiascum are the first I hear about such an approach.