Newbie 1428 Game Over

[Ravenpaw]

Of course not. If she called you an idiot, then it would not be getting my support, because you are clearly not. But it's just nice (with a lack for better words) to see someone express thoughts on your playstyle (?) that are exactly like my thoughts. That's what I was getting at with your unilateral questioning-thing. I feel Banksys did a really good job of getting that point across.

How do you mean “if” she called you an idiot? She did, as well as calling Cat an idiot too.

I put a questionmark between brackets there. Because from the one game we've been in together, I don't remember this actually being your playstyle. On the cotnrary even, yes, you did ask questions, but the way I remember you was very brief posts, with one or two specific question tops. Your questions were also all pertinent. Here there's a big amount of questions that are not relevant.

A game I never finished? I did not have time for it and I even said so in thread, that is why I replaced out after only 17 posts on day 1, so this is an irrelevant point Grim.
And again you keep harping on about my asking of questions, trying to make it out like that is all I do when clearly I am not.
Point out what one's are irrelevant and why.

It’s pretty obvious isn’t it? Banksy is scum (<- this I am very confident on) and your support of her, and weird attacks on my playstyle are making me read you as her buddy.

As her buddy or as her scumbuddy?

^ See this is an example of a meaningless question.
Um what else could it be? I just said Banksy is scum and I said you look like her buddy= scumbuddies.

And you do realise that all of your game related posts since #8 through to this one here #23 have either been a response to me or about me, right? It makes me wonder what you'd be doing without your muse here.

This is not due to Banksys, but due to you. I guess you are my muse. I admit I have to read up on Cat's entrance for instance, or CheeryDog's stances on all of this, but if there's anything that made me lose touch with this game it's been your questioning. My vote on you may be my way of transferring my feelings of guilt over my laziness to you,b ut normally I'm really not a lazy player. You've seen me play. But you want me to respond to all this stuff, there simply is no time for me to get into anything else. This is an actual, real argument. My time is not infinite.

Why did you attach that last part saying that "this is an actual, real argument"? Are you implying that your other arguments have not been real? That they are fake?
And if you don’t have time for the game then the polite thing to do is to replace out, just like I did in Newbie 1368.

And Grim you never responded to my reply of your question here:

Tell me, what three questions that asked were by you of the most help to you, and should be of particular help to all of us, and why?

You have repeatedly said that I’m not doing enough with my questions, but you did exactly nought with this. Pot meet kettle?

I'm still waiting for that case of yours btw, come on man don't leave me hanging

This is a fair request. I shall get on it within 48 hours!

And also getting back to Dyslexi’s questions to you would be good as well.

[Grimgroove]

Why did you attach that last part saying that "this is an actual, real argument"? Are you implying that your other arguments have not been real? That they are fake?

You cannot be serious?

[Ravenpaw]

Why did you attach that last part saying that "this is an actual, real argument"? Are you implying that your other arguments have not been real? That they are fake?

You cannot be serious?

Dead serious.
Why did you feel the need to attach it, because surely as town you would always be sincere and honest with what you are saying, yes?

[Grimgroove]

And you're misrepping me again Grim, you say I ALWAYS add a question when I answer you, but this is incorrect, anyone reading my posts can see this. And the reason I did ask you questions is because I am trying to figure out your alignment.

Were you also serious here?

[Ravenpaw]

Yes.
Your continual deflection of my question is noted Grim.

[Grimgroove]

I'm building up to my point :p
But dinner calls! Will be back later.

[BigTerp]

Could be interperted as either of you being mobbed up with Michael_Wolf.

Do you personally interpret those movements in that way?

I did, before I realized I screwed up the vote count. Not to say it could'nt have still been benefical for mafia to try and swing things my way, which seemed like what was happening. Still need to catch up a bit through the shit storm I missed. But for now.......

UNVOTE:

[BigTerp]

Completely my fault for being away over the holiday weekend, but going back through this thread is making my head hurt!!

[Ravenpaw]

To recap here is why Banksy is scum:

- She said Big was town, and that his meaning behind his post was obvious, yet said nothing at all when 3 people were attacking him. She also refused to explain this read and why Big’s posts were obvious town (btw when Banksy flips scum this clears Big as town in my view as I don’t see a scumbuddy letting their partner be attacked like that just for them to say after that they were obvious town, it feels more like Banksy trying to get town cred by avoiding a possible mislynch wagon.).
- Big ugly misrep of yours truly by saying I l left my vote on Big for a "long time to come" when in reality it was 4 minutes and I explained that I purposely put the vote in a separate post for clarity.This proves she is not looking at the thread in an objective way and instead just iso'd me to pick out things to attack.
- Resorts to ad hominine attacks.
- Lied blatantly about the “he” thing. Said she felt “really bad” about calling me a he when she never actually did, and when called out on this she refused to concede that she was in the wrong.
- Desperately trying to discredit me by resorting to calling me a newbie and saying that I don't deserve to be an SE. How is this relevant to anything at all?
- Never explained her “reaction test”.
- Makes generalisations about me that she cannot back up when asked to explain them, such as saying that I post meaningless content and that I’m trying to appear town.
- Said she wouldn’t respond to me anymore but then does anyway! Flailing scum is flailing.
- Admits her case is awful, and so she will have to make a new one on me. A townie when proven wrong usually does a rethink on their suspect, but not Banksy no (it’s because she’s not town).
- Makes bad arguments about how people explaining their town reads is anti-town and that people shouldn’t defend said town reads. She also wastes a lot of time waffling about game theory when she could be actually responding to game related questions instead. This also displays her hypocrisy as she has said I post meaningless stuff (never shows us where though) when she is the one actually doing it herself.

[Cheery Dog]

Lied blatantly about the “he” thing. Said she felt “really bad” about calling me a he when she never actually did, and when called out on this she refused to concede that she was in the wrong.

Can I ask for further explanation on why you think this has scum motivation?

[Ravenpaw]

Lied blatantly about the “he” thing. Said she felt “really bad” about calling me a he when she never actually did, and when called out on this she refused to concede that she was in the wrong.

Can I ask for further explanation on why you think this has scum motivation?

It proves that she is making stuff up. How could someone, who if they were town, feel "really bad" about something that they never even did? I mean, what would have even prompted her to type out that she had that emotion when clearly she never would have? Does that makes sense?
And notice that if the point never mattered at all that Banksys didn't just say "oh you're correct Raven I never did do that". Instead, she kept arguing that she did, which Cheery, shows a clear scum motive as scum hate to be caught in a lie and will keep arguing as such.
It confuses me that people are not seeing this.

[pieguyn]

Pie, have your read Banksys’s case on me and how I completely crushed it and revealed her scumminess in the process? If not, can you go back and re-read and give me your thoughts on it please.

just a few things right now

- Lied blatantly about the “he” thing. Said she felt “really bad” about calling me a he when she never actually did, and when called out on this she refused to concede that she was in the wrong.

if someone told me I said the wrong gender I'd just assume I did, just in case. it's not something I see necessary to go back and get all defensive over, it's just being courteous IMO.

- Said she wouldn’t respond to me anymore but then does anyway! Flailing scum is flailing.

I said I'd respond to you "just this once" and I responded again after that, and I don't see you calling me out haha

By the way, I'm very good at recognising when a scum is making a case on me, and this feels like one of those times.

^ this is fallacious IIRC?

You feel like you caught him in a contradiction, which is a god send for scum. It means you get to sit back and post all kinds of meaningless content and you can sit back and ask benign questions about random people's reads and look like town for doing it.

while I can agree with the idea somewhat, I don't think Ravenpaw's posts were completely meaningless. I also say that these kinds of posts can still help us get information. Even a post that's not 100% relevant keeps the game moving so that new information can flow later, we're already seeing it with this whole thing. plus everything said D1 can be reevaluated later and we can find some possible things that don't make sense in all the text

2) Example of the above: It is anti-town to explain town reads, and it is CERTAINLY anti-town to defend someone.

Cheery Dog pretty much already said what I want to say about this

don't know what to deduce from any of that till Banksys makes her case v2. have some ideas but it wouldn't be beneficial to elaborate cause it could change what might happen :>

[Ravenpaw]

- Lied blatantly about the “he” thing. Said she felt “really bad” about calling me a he when she never actually did, and when called out on this she refused to concede that she was in the wrong.

if someone told me I said the wrong gender I'd just assume I did, just in case. it's not something I see necessary to go back and get all defensive over, it's just being courteous IMO.

Correct, but I never accused Banksy of calling me the wrong gender in the first place. She (unprompted) went out of her way to say that she had felt bad about calling me a he (she never ever did though). That's what started this.

- Said she wouldn’t respond to me anymore but then does anyway! Flailing scum is flailing.

I said I'd respond to you "just this once" and I responded again after that, and I don't see you calling me out haha

They are two different situations. You were not accusing me of being scum while she was and acted like she was so confident in her case that it would not be necessary at all to even respond to me. That is why I called her out for it, it shows she is just full of hot air.

By the way, I'm very good at recognising when a scum is making a case on me, and this feels like one of those times.

^ this is fallacious IIRC?

No, it's true, I can give you examples of it if you'd like to know more.
Btw note that Banksy never said anything about that comment, never said "oh but you're wrong this time hahaha". It's because I'm not.

[Grimgroove]

Why did you attach that last part saying that "this is an actual, real argument"? Are you implying that your other arguments have not been real? That they are fake?

You cannot be serious?

And you're misrepping me again Grim, you say I ALWAYS add a question when I answer you, but this is incorrect, anyone reading my posts can see this. And the reason I did ask you questions is because I am trying to figure out your alignment.

Were you also serious here?

So then.
I really really don't feel like going into detail when analyzing everything Ravenpaw has been saying, it's too much. Ravenpaw, I've been ignoring your assignment of "finding three questions that were unhelpful" not because they don't exist (you yourself know that they do), but because 1. it is a tedious assignment in itself, even moreso because 2. I hold you capable of finding some farfetched reason for asking a certain question and attach some equally farfetched conslusion to it. I don't feel like entering that conversation.

Now I've been getting scummy vibes from you. Before I try to explain I must grant you several things: I'm not as active in this game as I usually am. Apart from you, Cheery Dog and Banksys, I have trouble even remebering who actually is in this game. Now, you can use this to discredit my view oàn you as much as you please, but my read on you, lazy as it may seem, is genuine, and with the aobve two posts I feel I can illustrate my main "beef" with you (or your playstyle). A similar thing is going on with this "he"-"she"-thing that's gonig on between you and banksys.

While during your questioning you may find and raise some good points, it's the above that gives you away in my eyes. Grasping at straws to somehow make your case gain weight. It feels so artificial.

The above struck me as odd.

You say I MISREP you by saying that you ALWAYS add questions of your own to answers that you give. First of all I don't like your inclination to pull that misrecard all the time. There are such things as interpretations as well, and also, like in my case, of agreed upon language. The word "always" is rarely meant to be taken seriously. OBviously you have been giving answers without adding a question to it. Me saying you always do that is not me saying you ALWAYS do that, it's just me saying I discerned a general trend where you do that. You turning this into a misrep shows you are intent on making me look bad.

The same for the other one. The fact that I added this is an "actual, real, argument"OBVIOUSLY does not mean that the other stuff I said wasn't. Reading it that way shows your questionable intentions when reading me. What I meant, and what I feel would be a more normal interpretation, is that the "time-argument" got ignored before, possible because people don't take it seriously. "There's always time", some people seem to think. There isn't. I wanted to stress this point by adding what I added.

You do not scumhunt Ravenpaw. You've got a pot of "scumpaint" and you use your brush on whoever you see fit. Hence my vote on you.

Now, I underqtand your request of me replacing out, I should read into other people as well. My promise to you: I will do this before the end of the day.

[Grimgroove]

Just re-read through page 2 and 3 and I'm actually pretty angry with the way Ravenpaw hijacked my attention there. Just look for yourself. And it's so obvious now.

Ravenpaw, you commented on basically everything, but not on my first attempt at a case on Cheery Dog. Why was this irrelevant to you? You only mentioned it indirectly by asking BigTerp questions about it. Questions, all these questions.

And I didn't like your "Why did you ask?" after me asking for your read on Dyslexicon (post 70). Imagine having to answer that for every question you have asked. I reckon you'd be here for a while. Hijack. Plain and simple.

[BigTerp]

VOTE: Ravenpaw

Although I'd like to hear more from the ones who haven't been around much, Ravenpaw is my best feel right now. I feel the relentless questioning of my L-1/L-2 comment early on was just a mafia ploy to get me flustered (which it did) and start a run up on me. Then here 87 I'm all of a sudden town. She seemed to be poking around early on to see who she could get to bite. First it was me, then it was Grim (who didn't bite) and now it's Banksys Flareon. Also the last 4 pages of posts by Ravenpaw are half OMGUS. Maybe that's her playstyle, but that sticks out as scummy to me.

[Michael_Wolf]

Eh... kind of undecided atm. Would like to hear more from the more silent ones.

I agree on hearing more from the silent ones. Not using my newbieness as an excuse but I tend to struggle on Day 1 and I need to find a way to immerse myself in some new conversation.

@Dyslexicon What are your thoughts on Banksys/Grim and Raven so far?

@BigTerp - What is your gut telling you so far? You spent a lot of the early pages on the defense, I'd love to see you go on the offense.

@CatClancer - Are you still set on Pie being scum after the new walls of text?

Edit: There's Big Terp!!!

[Ravenpaw]

Another awesome wall that must be spoilered or else the masses will go blind with its awesomeness:

Spoiler:

So then.
I really really don't feel like going into detail when analyzing everything Ravenpaw has been saying, it's too much. Ravenpaw, I've been ignoring your assignment of "finding three questions that were unhelpful" not because they don't exist (you yourself know that they do), but because 1. it is a tedious assignment in itself, even moreso because 2. I hold you capable of finding some farfetched reason for asking a certain question and attach some equally farfetched conslusion to it. I don't feel like entering that conversation.

Then why even start that line of questioning with me when you had no intention with concluding it? Just wanting to try and sling some mud at me? Yeah just as I suspected. I answered your challenge, so the ball was in your court to do something.

Now I've been getting scummy vibes from you. Before I try to explain I must grant you several things: I'm not as active in this game as I usually am. Apart from you, Cheery Dog and Banksys, I have trouble even remebering who actually is in this game. Now, you can use this to discredit my view oàn you as much as you please, but my read on you, lazy as it may seem, is genuine, and with the aobve two posts I feel I can illustrate my main "beef" with you (or your playstyle). A similar thing is going on with this "he"-"she"-thing that's gonig on between you and banksys.

There is no “she” thing. I have already explained the “he” thing very clearly.
Am I right in assuming you don’t find it odd that Banksy said she felt very bad about saying something that in reality never even occurred?

While during your questioning you may find and raise some good points, it's the above that gives you away in my eyes. Grasping at straws to somehow make your case gain weight. It feels so artificial.

Explain what is wrong with my case on Banksy please.

You say I MISREP you by saying that you ALWAYS add questions of your own to answers that you give. First of all I don't like your inclination to pull that misrecard all the time. There are such things as interpretations as well, and also, like in my case, of agreed upon language. The word "always" is rarely meant to be taken seriously. OBviously you have been giving answers without adding a question to it. Me saying you always do that is not me saying you ALWAYS do that, it's just me saying I discerned a general trend where you do that. You turning this into a misrep shows you are intent on making me look bad.

Okay three things here:
1) Why did you not say anything about this at the time if it so bothered you? Instead you decided to bring it into discussion only later when I questioned you about your odd wording.
2) Seeing as how this is a game done through text we have every right to analyse the words people use and question why they say certain things.
3) Calling out when a misrep happens is good, it shows that a person is looking at the facts.

The same for the other one. The fact that I added this is an "actual, real, argument"OBVIOUSLY does not mean that the other stuff I said wasn't. Reading it that way shows your questionable intentions when reading me. What I meant, and what I feel would be a more normal interpretation, is that the "time-argument" got ignored before, possible because people don't take it seriously. "There's always time", some people seem to think. There isn't. I wanted to stress this point by adding what I added.

My issue with it is pretty clear I feel. Adding that part at the end of your argument felt to me like you were stressing that this was legit Grim talk that had no fakeness about it, inferring that the other stuff you’ve said…not so much.
And note that I didn’t just take your statement and start screaming “this is scummy as heck!”, instead I questioned you on it as I wanted to see your thoughts.

You do not scumhunt Ravenpaw.

That is a bold statement, I would like to see you try and back this up.
And as I said before, the majority of

your

posts are about me, that doesn’t strike me as someone looking objectively at the game and instead just tunnelling towards a mislynch.

Now, I underqtand your request of me replacing out, I should read into other people as well. My promise to you: I will do this before the end of the day.

I find it odd that you’re making promises to someone you see as scum.
And I never requested you to replace out, it was an idea for you to consider as you keep bemoaning how you have no time for the game and that I am such a burden to you by um ….you know, playing.

Just re-read through page 2 and 3 and I'm actually pretty angry with the way Ravenpaw hijacked my attention there. Just look for yourself. And it's so obvious now.

Ravenpaw, you commented on basically everything, but not on my first attempt at a case on Cheery Dog. Why was this irrelevant to you? You only mentioned it indirectly by asking BigTerp questions about it. Questions, all these questions.

Oh I’m sorry, I didn’t realise I had to respond to every little thing in the thread. Gosh how terrible I am at this game, maybe I really am a n00b in SE clothing!
And it was null to me, I had no read on Cheery yet and no read on you yet so I was letting it play out.

And I didn't like your "Why did you ask?" after me asking for your read on Dyslexicon (post 70). Imagine having to answer that for every question you have asked. I reckon you'd be here for a while. Hijack. Plain and simple.

It was still early days and I was getting reads. By asking you why it allowed the dialogue to continue between us. That’s how conversations usually work Grim.

You do realise now that you have continually ignored Dyslexi’s questions to you, have avoided making any sort of response to Banksy’s terribad case on yours truly, I mean, surely if I’m scum then you should be salivating over how awesome and accurate Banksy’s case is yeah? But you’re not, you’re avoiding it like it is riddled with something terrible. How strange.
Put the chainsaw away and start bussing.

VOTE: Ravenpaw

Although I'd like to hear more from the ones who haven't been around much, Ravenpaw is my best feel right now. I feel the relentless questioning of my L-1/L-2 comment early on was just a mafia ploy to get me flustered (which it did) and start a run up on me. Then here 87 I'm all of a sudden town. She seemed to be poking around early on to see who she could get to bite. First it was me, then it was Grim (who didn't bite) and now it's Banksys Flareon. Also the last 4 pages of posts by Ravenpaw are half OMGUS. Maybe that's her playstyle, but that sticks out as scummy to me.

I expected this, seeing as I did go hard at you early on. I've provided my thoughts on why I think you're town.
You can call it omgus, but I see it as me merely pointing out the scum driven case that Banksys has created. And I was poking around, you are absolutely correct on that front. It's called looking for scum. Notice when I voted Banksy I said "finally!", it's because my Raveny senses had finally kicked in, the pieces came together and things made sense.
Do you agree with all the points Banksy made on me? (And just so you know I'm not asking this to try and set a trap or whatever, I'm actually trying to get you to see how her case is bad and that she is scum).

@Michael- What are your thoughts on Banksys and I?

[Grimgroove]

Ravenpaw is a MACHINE !!!!

[Michael_Wolf]

I can't seperate your play style and arguements yet which is why I've stayed clear of it. Your playstyle (Raven) reminds me of someone in my first game that got lynched Day 1 and turned out to be scum. However I refuse to vote based just on that. As far as Banksys, I like her direct approach but I haven't had the opportunity to go back and read Banksys posts through your point of view yet. So far I find myself easily agreeing with anybody who makes a case when I view their case through their eyes.

So to sum it up, I can't make up my own mind yet. I will have a firmer stance on you two before the deadline but it may not be until I have the time and patience to sit down and read more.

[BigTerp]

Do you agree with all the points Banksy made on me? (And just so you know I'm not asking this to try and set a trap or whatever, I'm actually trying to get you to see how her case is bad and that she is scum).

Not with everything, or course. But more so with her case against you then yours against her. Honestly, I've been going back and reading through the thread since yesterday evening, and it's making my fucking eyes go crossed!!! It has turned into a Raven vs Ban post off and that's a bad thing for the town. There are several players who have been less than active, and if they are scum, the focus on you two allows them to stay on the sidelines even longer.

I'm going to disect the thread yet again, and see what I can come up with.

[Cat Clancer]

UNVOTE

I apologies I don't post much on the weekdays. School/work takes up a lot of time. I will try to at least read and be caught up in this situation though.

I think what's going on is it's pretty much between Raven/Blankys as scum.

For now, I'll unvote because there's a lot more to read on those two then pie, but I'm not declaring him town just yet.

Both of them seem like scum (but why would mafia argue with eachother)? I think it's highly likely that one of them is scum though.

I'll have to ISO each properly and come with a decision on their status when I have the chance.

[Grimgroove]

I don't like Cat's last post. Sounds mighty opportunistic and he doesn't give me the impression of knowing what's going on.

So, I'm going to reply to Ravenpaw again, but I invite everyone to read the game from the start again, and see how she has single-handedly made this topic a big ball of mess. She has to put half her posts in spoiler tags for damage control. We are on page 8!!!! Doesn't sound like someone reading too much into everything? This is paralyzing.

Another awesome wall that must be spoilered or else the masses will go blind with its awesomeness:

Spoiler:

So then.
I really really don't feel like going into detail when analyzing everything Ravenpaw has been saying, it's too much. Ravenpaw, I've been ignoring your assignment of "finding three questions that were unhelpful" not because they don't exist (you yourself know that they do), but because 1. it is a tedious assignment in itself, even moreso because 2. I hold you capable of finding some farfetched reason for asking a certain question and attach some equally farfetched conslusion to it. I don't feel like entering that conversation.

Then why even start that line of questioning with me when you had no intention with concluding it? Just wanting to try and sling some mud at me? Yeah just as I suspected. I answered your challenge, so the ball was in your court to do something.

Of course I had an intention of concluding it, that's what I did. Not in the way you liked, but I did conclude. I kept the ball and ran off with it, to show everyone how you mistreated it.

Now I've been getting scummy vibes from you. Before I try to explain I must grant you several things: I'm not as active in this game as I usually am. Apart from you, Cheery Dog and Banksys, I have trouble even remebering who actually is in this game. Now, you can use this to discredit my view oàn you as much as you please, but my read on you, lazy as it may seem, is genuine, and with the aobve two posts I feel I can illustrate my main "beef" with you (or your playstyle). A similar thing is going on with this "he"-"she"-thing that's gonig on between you and banksys.

There is no “she” thing. I have already explained the “he” thing very clearly.
Am I right in assuming you don’t find it odd that Banksy said she felt very bad about saying something that in reality never even occurred?

No. It's very odd. Let's hope it's not a tumor.

While during your questioning you may find and raise some good points, it's the above that gives you away in my eyes. Grasping at straws to somehow make your case gain weight. It feels so artificial.

Explain what is wrong with my case on Banksy please.

I was talking about your case against me, which is a bit (though slightly) less tedious to follow.

You say I MISREP you by saying that you ALWAYS add questions of your own to answers that you give. First of all I don't like your inclination to pull that misrecard all the time. There are such things as interpretations as well, and also, like in my case, of agreed upon language. The word "always" is rarely meant to be taken seriously. OBviously you have been giving answers without adding a question to it. Me saying you always do that is not me saying you ALWAYS do that, it's just me saying I discerned a general trend where you do that. You turning this into a misrep shows you are intent on making me look bad.

Okay three things here:
1) Why did you not say anything about this at the time if it so bothered you? Instead you decided to bring it into discussion only later when I questioned you about your odd wording.
2) Seeing as how this is a game done through text we have every right to analyse the words people use and question why they say certain things.
3) Calling out when a misrep happens is good, it shows that a person is looking at the facts.

1/ These are the questions that make you look bad. And you answering it yourself is even worse. This has got nothing to do with you questioning my choice of words. Argh. It just didn't seem important at the time, even though your literal interpretation of Always already annoyed me. But it kept nagging in my head. Now I burst.
2/ I really don't know what to say to that... Take it up to the Human Rights Watch? I never said you can't do what you're doing, I'm saying the way you're doing it is scummy.
3/ IT WAS NOT A MISREP, SO DO NOT CALL IT A MISREP!! It is not good. Do not talk about FACTS when in point 2 you talk about interpretations.

The rest later. Exhausted.

[Banksys Flareon]

@Mod: Request Replacement

[Banksys Flareon]

But as my final reads, I would encourage you all to take a SERIOUS look at Cat Clancer and Michael_Wolf