LoL eSports Discussion

[BROseidon]

C9 lost 1-2. The third game was kind of a stomp, but to say C9 played below the world level is taking it a bit far.

[JDodge]

C9 lost 1-2. The third game was kind of a stomp, but to say C9 played below the world level is taking it a bit far.

did you watch game 2? it came down to fnatic picked TF into fizz extremely greedily and xpeke misplayed early (which was a completely critical mistake)

game 1 was close until a point where fnatic

could

reasonably force something, at which point they took complete control

[Bub Bidderskins]

It was extremely close. Who out-rotated who was up in the air throughout and C9 played extremely well.

[yessiree]

Fnatic has a history of losing to Chinese teams

The final will likely be a rematch of OMG vs SKT

[Brandi]

I'm hoping they can change history this time

[KageLord]

Eh C9 didn't play their best I think. Lemon got caught a couple times uncharacteristically and their rotations in game 1 were below their normal level.

[Bub Bidderskins]

Eh C9 didn't play their best I think. Lemon got caught a couple times uncharacteristically and their rotations in game 1 were below their normal level.

Fnatic plays in a way that really fucks with a team's rotations, though. C9 played well, but there is still room for improvement. If other NA teams bring themselves up to C9's level then NA will be a much better region.

[mykonian]

I also have the idea that if you aren't really confident on gragas, xpeke of all people might not be the person you want to play him against. It might not get played by the top European teams, but you aren't catching him out with an unknown matchup.

[JDodge]

[pickemgenius]

can't remember the last time elise jungle was impactful in a game.


g-bears pickin that shit twice is sad.

sktt1 should win this one 2-0 now.
zz.

[Tamuz]

I am so happy Tabe is speaking English.

It has really bothered me that all the Europeans (had to?) speak English, yet not a single Asian got or took the chance to show their English until him.

Then again, I'd have liked one of the Americans to speak a 2nd language in some broadcast, just for show.

[TheIrishPope]

Yay SKT won
Why did OMG lose with only one match? The bracket says Royal already qualified for Semis

[Brandi]

can't remember the last time elise jungle was impactful in a game.


g-bears pickin that shit twice is sad.

sktt1 should win this one 2-0 now.
zz.

Elise jungle in Royal Club would like a word!

[TheIrishPope]

oh ok 2-0 poor omg

[Tamuz]

I'm still kinda annoyed by the immediate China-China elim round.

[pickemgenius]

can't remember the last time elise jungle was impactful in a game.


g-bears pickin that shit twice is sad.

sktt1 should win this one 2-0 now.
zz.

Elise jungle in Royal Club would like a word!

if you can hit nearly every cocoon it doesnt matter if you have 30 cs at 20 minutes.

omg played both their '2v2s(jungle and top vs ad/support)' shockingly bad'

ofc uzi is a beast tho so no shock.

[KageLord]

TheOddOne effectively jungles Elise a lot. I think Meteos played her as well. And maaaaaaybe Cyanide.

[JDodge]

some worlds stats on jungle elise:

9 wins, 9 losses overall

if you take out games that involved gg.eu and mineski (which i feel we can all agree were not fair matches), the record sinks like a stone to 5-8

the main strong jungle elise player is gambit's diamond, who sported a 3-0 record on her through worlds (against najin, mineski, and vulcun) - likewise, another of those wins was najin's watch securing a win against gambit, meaning that in games gambit, mineski, and gg.eu were

not

present in, jungle elise had a much-storied 2-8 record overall

RE: meteos and theoddone on elise through worlds, every time TSM picked jungle elise at worlds, they lost (they also lost to a jungle elise being played by lemondogs' dexter); likewise, c9 lost the one game that meteos picked jungle elise and won the one game where cyanide picked jungle elise

im pulling EU LCS stats now (NA LCS stats are not relevant due to the massive disparity in skill level between the teams)

[JDodge]

EU LCS raw elise stats, sorted per-jungler, per-week, and per-opponent for the summer split (was not picked once during playoffs)

EG Snoopeh 0-1
EG Shacker 1-0
Fnatic Cyanide 1-1
LD Dexter 3-1
ALT Araneae 2-3

Week 3 1-1 (First week on patch 3.8, which included Hecarim nerfs, Kha'zix rework, Nautilus nerfs, Sejuani nerfs, machete/spirit stone change, spirit stone upgrade buffs, buff XP changes to prioritize the buff monster itself, and wolf/wraith/golem respawn timer changes))
Week 4 1-1 (Patch 3.8)
Week 6 4-0 (Patch 3.8)
Week 8 1-0 (Patch 3.9, which included more Hecarim nerfs, Nunu nerfs, Shyvana quasi-rework, tear stack change on form-shift ulti champs)
Week 9 0-4 (Patch 3.10, which included Elise nerfs which are touched on later, Zac nerfs, changes to MR items, wraith/wolf/golem spawn time changes, baron damage reduction changes, turret changes, and a reversion to the buff XP change)

vs Fnatic 1-2
vs SK 0-2
vs GMB 3-0
vs NiP 1-0
vs EG 2-2

Overall 7-6

These point to the following possible conclusions:

1. Gambit has a severe problem with Elise, and Diamond picking it up at Worlds and playing it was likely done to pave over this weakness (I believe Gambit has done this in the past)

2. It is run into EG with considerable frequency with mixed results - both times EG lost, it was to Alternate, and both times EG won were in week 9 - once to Lemondogs and once to Alternate. This suggests that the 3.10 balance changes (Spiderling durability/damage change, Volatile Spiderling speed nerf, Rappel bugfix/nerf) severely impacted Elise jungle between week 8 and 9.

3. In the 0-4 week 9, Elise was run twice by ALT's Araneae (who had a 2-1 record on her going in), once by LD's Dexter (3-0 going in), and once by EG's Snoopeh (only time playing Elise in summer split) - this reinforces the conclusion that a balance change was not appropriately adjusted to in the valuation of jungle champs by professional teams.

4. The emphasis on and then subsequent removal of emphasis on the actual buff monster for XP in jungle camps may have significantly hurt Elise's win rate, as did the change to the way Baron's damage debuff works from an AD debuff to a magic/physical damage debuff.

So for the sake of further analysis, let's look at when Alternate's Araneae picked Elise as the most prolific Elise jungler in EU (and also as a quick comparison, lane Elise in EU LCS had a 14-13 win rate).

Araneae was the most prolific jungle Elise player. He played her in a win in week 3 vs EG when EG banned out his Lee Sin and Hecarim. It was picked in Alternate's first round of picks alongside Thresh after EG had first-picked Nunu; as Kerp did not play Elise during the summer split, it can be assumed that they had planned all along to run jungle Elise, but perhaps were willing to feign a possible top Elise pick to allow Kerp to pick a much riskier Kha'zix later on.

In week 4, he played Elise in a loss to Fnatic. Fnatic had once again banned out his Lee Sin and first-picked Nunu - this indicates Alternate possibly using Elise as an attempted counter to Nunu. Unfortunately, I do not feel its entirely possible to use this game as a fair analysis of jungle Elise - it included Alternate using WhiteKnight as a sub for their mid laner ForellenLord (WhiteKnight would later sub for Creaton after his injury) and running mid Quinn into xPeke's Zed - so we'll skip over looking too hard at it.

In week 6, they managed another Elise win vs EG. This time, Alternate had first pick, and first picked Elise after a Lee Sin ban by EG. Their late top lane Malphite pick after forcing out the top lane pick from EG (in this case, Renekton - at this point they had also shown their hand with Xin Zhao jungle) is potentially indicative of a plan to use Elise either top or jungle depending on enemy picks. It is worth noting that this was during Shacker's debut with EG at Tenerife - while I have not watched the game personally, it appears that it was fairly one-sided in the favor of Alternate, including sub WhiteKnight's Varus going 10/3/10 to yellowpete's Twitch going 3/8/8.

In week 9, they lost to SK. This one is important because it was the first time Lee Sin was not banned against them and they first-picked Elise anyways. Lee Sin was then grabbed by SK in their first round of picks alongside Twitch, followed by Alternate picking their own bot lane. Europe has a meta centered around leaving mid picks to last - this ensured that Alternate would see SK's top lane prior to committing once again. SK called Alternate's bluff, and picked Zac in their next round of picks, allowing them their own flexibility. Alternate picked up Renekton for top, and Ahri for mid, turning full control over both solo lanes to SK in the pick/ban phase. Araneae's performance was statistically weak (similarly to Jree's performance on Fiddlesticks).

They then proceeded to run it against EG for the third time. Lee Sin was once again banned by EG, meaning it was only left on the table once vs Alternate. EG first-picked Shen, meaning Alternate already knew the top lane for EG and was able to pick around it. They rather bafflingly proceeded to pick Ahri and Thresh, leading EG to respond with a safe jungler (Nasus) and their own support (Sona). Alternate then proceeded to pick Elise and Varus, once again leaving that level of ambiguity on the table, alongside Varus. This did mean, however, that EG was able to counterpick both the bot lane duo and the mid lane, responding with Caitlyn and Fizz (who is historically picked by EU teams as a counterpick to Ahri when Kassadin isn't on the table), alongside their safe picks in Shen and Nasus. Alternate finished off their lineup with a Singed and EG finished off their regular season with a win. Of particular note here is yellowpete's 9/0/4 performance on Caitlyn.

This fits in line with a pattern of early Elise picks, indicating Elise is not picked for her value in the jungle but for her versatility as both a top laner and a jungler. It is possible that she is strongly overvalued by teams at the moment, or that her still high ban rate is indicative of teams knowing how to play against her when necessary to do so.

[BROseidon]

This game.

Is a stomp.

[xRECKONERx]

Great series.

[quadz08]

GO FNATIC

They are clobbering every teamfight in Game 3, but they aren't getting objectives like they ought to be. Should win here to force Game 4, but even a stomp is taking > 30 minutes. Not a good sign.

[zoraster]

it's been a lot of fun.

[Nexus]

First pick Fizz in the first game was so odd from Fnatic.

Much better Game 3 though.

[quadz08]

Yeah, I'm quite concerned about the fizz pick. I think FNC has a chance if fizz keeps up and jarvan plays well.