Mini 1501: We're On A Boat! (END?! results inside)

[pitoli]

Fishes live in the sea, as men do on land; the big ones eat up the little ones.
~ Pericles

VOTE COUNT 1.8

Spyrex:

LolWagons, Plum, Empire, Notscience

YYR:

CrashTextDummie

Garmr:

Kazekimaru

Kazekirimaru

: YYR, SleepyKrew, Garmr, SpyreX

Brian Skies:

ChannelDelibird

Not Voting:

Brian Skies, fferyllt

With 13 alive, it takes 7 votes to lynch.

Time until deadline: (expired on 2013-10-17 00:00:00)

Mod Notes

: YYR is V/LA till this Saturday.
Empire is V/LA till this Sunday.

[SpyreX]

Dont fly all you want but this:

Spyrex- Calls me town, no reasoning. I feel like "oh if he's town he's a deadly scumhunter" is a bad reason to keep someone alive js.

is a baldfaced lie.

[SleepyKrew]

Which part is a lie?

[SpyreX]

The no reasoning. If it comes down to it, I'll explain but there should be enough if you look crosseyed to see something is amiss.

[Kazekirimaru]

The SpyreX vote is stupid.

Unvote

VOTE: Empire

This one is better. As grandiose and impressive as his entrance is; it feels wrong to me at second glance. Miller claims...they draw attention. On their own they're null; but here they drew scrutiny faster than shouting "I'm Scum!" at the top of your lungs would ever be. Yet one of Empire's big reasons for voting SpyreX is because Spyre believed Miller claims aren't a shield. Well, they aren't. They may give you an excuse for returning guilty investigations, but in reading some games, Millers are basically a stigma. A Scarlet letter, if you will. There is no good advantage in claiming a Miller(This is my final muse on the subject of Millers.)

But, I digressed a bit. Despite all this, Empire still used his opinion to the contrary as a point to vote SpyreX. I don't like his reasoning. It looks like a mislynch push, and it seems to be working to an extent. I dislike it.

[LolWagons]

I also kinda feel like, having read his catchup post, Slaxx should be voting Brian ahead of Spyrex.

I was voting Spyrex for the same reason you don't want to vote Spyrex. He is usually a much more proactive and aggressive person with a lot to offer as town and it seemed like he was dancing around actually doing anything besides commenting on the Miller claim and lurkers. Plus, I am familiar with his playstyle and a wagon on him would give me more info anyway. I realize the importance of a town block and its something I too utilize but I also try to actively move the game forward. His recent responses have given me pause and I'm not 100% sure how I feel about the wagon anymore. Quite honestly, I don't like the company I'm in on it nor do I like how it formed.

unvote

I like Kaze's recent post as far as thought process. I'm not for sure if I agree with the logic, I want to see Empire's response before I make a decision there.

In the meantime,

vote Brian Skies

.

[SleepyKrew]

Dammit I was gonna maybe start a Brian wagon after my reread/catchup

[Kazekirimaru]

What is a "town block/townbloc"? I've heard it used a couple times now but I can't find the term on the wiki. In context, it sounds like a group of townreads. Confirm?

[SleepyKrew]

It's when a group of people are townreading each other and then they lynch scum and have fun and sometimes scum manages to get into the bloc

[LolWagons]

What is a "town block/townbloc"? I've heard it used a couple times now but I can't find the term on the wiki. In context, it sounds like a group of townreads. Confirm?

SK is correct, I use it more loosely to define a bunch of people I set saide that I think are highly unlikely to be scum. It helps with signal to noise ratio, but you just have to remember to always check yourself occasionally. I can't focus on the game or put peices together if I'm constantly and completely paranoid of 12 other players the entire game, sometimes a leap of faith just helps.

[notscience]

It's actually not a lie, scumrex.

You have yet to try and discern my alignment.

Thus, my point.

[CrashTextDummie]

So a Spyrex wagon forms and loses steam before I even get to participate.

3.) I'm not "keeping options open". I'm stating a fact. If this isn't a sweep, a miller claim gets lynched because it WILL be lynched at lylo for a loss. Its too easy and it has to be dealt with. Period. I'm pretty sure that "the meta" hasn't shifted that much since I've been around and, if it has, thats bad and you should feel bad. I want to win without having to eat what WILL be a mislynch.

The big issue for me here is that you're calling Brian

town

while at the same time stating that he should be lynched later on. If you're against lynching him today for stated reasoning that you think he is town, why are you preemptively in favor of lynching him later? Again, the "we could town-sweep" argument is hogwash, because a mislynch or two has zero bearing on Brian's alignment.

I still didn't move my vote. Even though Empire is probably scum, Kaze is still the better lynch.

Why is Empire scum?

Dont fly all you want but this:

Spyrex- Calls me town, no reasoning. I feel like "oh if he's town he's a deadly scumhunter" is a bad reason to keep someone alive js.

is a baldfaced lie.

Your defense against the accusation that you're not scumhunting is that you're town hunting instead, and here you accuse one of your stated town reads of lying without it having any apparent influence on your read. I don't even.

-----------------------------

The SpyreX vote is stupid.

Unvote

VOTE: Empire

This one is better. As grandiose and impressive as his entrance is; it feels wrong to me at second glance. Miller claims...they draw attention. On their own they're null; but here they drew scrutiny faster than shouting "I'm Scum!" at the top of your lungs would ever be. Yet one of Empire's big reasons for voting SpyreX is because Spyre believed Miller claims aren't a shield. Well, they aren't. They may give you an excuse for returning guilty investigations, but in reading some games, Millers are basically a stigma. A Scarlet letter, if you will. There is no good advantage in claiming a Miller(This is my final muse on the subject of Millers.)

But, I digressed a bit. Despite all this, Empire still used his opinion to the contrary as a point to vote SpyreX. I don't like his reasoning. It looks like a mislynch push, and it seems to be working to an extent. I dislike it.

First of all, I have to once again point out that it is factually wrong that there is "no good advantage in claiming miller". I have posted a link to a game where a D1 miller fake claim allowed scum to coast for the rest of the game and win. I could get into the theory of why this happens, but suffice it to say that few town will just go "hey, time to policy lynch the claimed miller" three, four days into the game.

Secondly, is this the only issue you have with Empire's analysis?

Quite honestly, I don't like the company I'm in on it nor do I like how it formed.

Per your entry analysis, your company on the wagon was a "leaning town" read (Plum) and a pair of null reads (NS, Empire). Please elaborate.

[Kazekirimaru]

- You cannot honestly tell me a Miller claim is an advantage. There is nothing good about it, that's why people generally hate rolling it.

- Yeah, kinda. But it's the important point: the issue is with the reason he has a vote on someone. If I find flaw in voting reasoning, it feels good enough to me to throw a vote on them. Townies are supposed to be thorough when they profess to seriously vote someone. Scum however don't need to put as much thought into their votes. They know who scum is, they just need to mislynch town. So if a person like Empire makes a grand entrance, explains verbosely and at-length about their vote, and appears to have given thought to their selection - yet I still find their vote reasoning fundamentally flawed? It looks like posturing to me. Vote. You best believe I'm throwing it down.

[LolWagons]

Plum is still leaning town, Empire and NS's jump on the wagon I didn't particularly like, they made me a bit wary.

Kaze made a good point about empire's post, and NS has seemed to easily rise and drop suspicions based on the crowd short of leading the Aero wagon early game.

[CrashTextDummie]

Couple more for Spyrex, courtesy of reading his ISO:

CTD is one note and that note is brown.

Still want this elaborated on.

Secondly, why is your Kaze case so utterly terrible?

This is predicated in Kaze's flailing arm inflatable tube man stunt being scum. Smudger is far more gut than the others. More than anything I'm willing to gamble here on SK-town because thats making more sense AND Kaze was a leaper on that miller badness.

The stated reason for your vote on him at the time. You accuse Kaze of being a "leaper on that miller badness". He was the second vote of the game, in the second post of the game, before the miller claim even happened. Strike one.

2.) He hedges his bet on the miller claim and blindly and blatantly as I've seen in forever. There is no committal to anything there and how you get town out of that I dont know.

He "hedged his bet" for a grand total of two pages, during which the miller claim was thoroughly deliberated. He may be accused of going with the flow, but that's not your angle of attack. Strike two.

3.) He then jumps onto the Aero wagon.

The irony here of course being that this was a wagon you fully supported (Aero blood and all that) at the time, without putting a vote on yourself. Strike three.

The general feeling I'm getting here is that you picked Kaze as a wagon target and tried to come up with reasons for it later. It most certainly doesn't feel like an organically developed suspicion.

Unvote, vote: Spyrex

[CrashTextDummie]

Correction to my last post:
Upon rereading the relevant portion of the game, it's arguably fair to interpret Kaze's initial reaction to the miller claim as hedging his bets. Still think Spyrex is grossly over-reaching.

- You cannot honestly tell me a Miller claim is an advantage. There is nothing good about it, that's why people generally hate rolling it.

People hate rolling it because it's a genuinely shitty role to have in a town, because it objectively sucks to claim early because it gives scum information they rather shouldn't have and because people hate claiming in general. I very strongly doubt that "having a stigma" is a large part of why people hate drawing the role.

Yes, it's a disadvantage for the town to have a genuine D1 miller claim, with the only advantage being that you don't risk a false positive from a cop. Scum doesn't share this disadvantage in faking the claim. I have already given you several big advantages scum gain from successfully establishing a miller claim, and the only disadvantage, this so called "miller stigma" is severely overstated in today's metagame.

[Kazekirimaru]

Fair enough. I'm totally willing to accept that Millers and advantages regarding them are subject to opinion greatly.

But a disagreement in said opinion shouldn't be a reason to vote someone.

That's the real point I'm making.

That and the latter point of my 487.

[SpyreX]

It's actually not a lie, scumrex.

You have yet to try and discern my alignment.

Thus, my point.

I'm not sure what song and dance you're up to, still, but it stops now:

I'm in a neighborhood with NS. Without tipping my hand entirely, considering that its a night-only neighborhood and "the meta" as well as personal experience this lended me to believe far more in an NS town than scum. I said this before the game started - as well as suggesting the crumb and trying to bait a fake neighbor claim in case one of us died.

So, like I said before, this is patently false because, while not air tight by any margin, I was willing to call this town out of the gate. That's done.

--------
@CTD:

Brown, as in the brown note. You can go google it if you really need to because this new series of music is just a continuation.

The big issue for me here is that you're calling Brian town while at the same time stating that he should be lynched later on. If you're against lynching him today for stated reasoning that you think he is town, why are you preemptively in favor of lynching him later? Again, the "we could town-sweep" argument is hogwash, because a mislynch or two has zero bearing on Brian's alignment.

I'm not sure what glasses you're using when you read my posts but lets get one thing clear: Being cognizant of something that will happen is not the same as being in favor of it. It is in no way shape or form a leap or a Nostradamus prediction that Brian will end up dead unless the game is in a state where that doesn't need to happen. So, go ahead and drink your own hogwash if you think that the game state doesn't have any affect on the lynch.

And never, never ever did I make any statements about Brian's

alignment

. He's town, but that doesn't change the fact down the road. This isn't even car science, much less rocket science.

Why is Empire scum?

Nope. I'm not playing speak and spell. If you dont see why I think he's scum

from a post you are quoting

you're either being willfully obtuse or *gasp* dont care enough to look. Its almost like its a trend.

Your defense against the accusation that you're not scumhunting is that you're town hunting instead, and here you accuse one of your stated town reads of lying without it having any apparent influence on your read. I don't even.

There's not a "defense". There's nothing to defend. What I did say, and just reiterated is that notscience

is lying

. The original statement was a lie. End point. You either think I am lying about his lie, or telling the truth. End point.

Secondly, why is your Kaze case so utterly terrible?

Its not a case. Its context for someone else about a specific statement they made. WOOOOSH.

What it is is a symptom. Of a pattern of behavior that looks far more scum motivated than town motivated. The faux-rage and nonesense when SK poked him even a little bit is far more tantamount that that.

[fferyllt]

NS? Do you confirm the neighborhood?

[Plum]

After you goaded him about his suspicions of you without a vote, did maintaining his suspicions and voting you make a difference? Do you think that was alignment indicative?

Not the vote, necessarily. The fact that he started in on me after I voted him was clearly reactive. His vote was escalation.

Meh, duly noted.

- If Brian is scum, I don't think he came up with the miller strat all on his own as he seems to be a newer player. My guess is that, if he's scum, a more experienced player suggested the claim to him and coached him on how to do it ahead of time.

Brian: I don't like the presentation of the miller claim in #12 with the "look elsewhere" bit on a gut level mostly because it does feel like he's coming into the thread hoping that the ensuing attention on his claim goes away. The main thing that bothers me, though, is that it feels like he's laying the martyr act way to thick -- all throughout his ISO, there's plenty of mentions about how he's ok with being lynched / killed (notable examples include: #18, #43, end of #347). It almost feels like a WIFOMy dare to get him lynched.

And he was coached to that degree of detail, say you?

I'm assuming since you've been himmin and hawwin and finally voted I'm scum - but I actually did say Maestro was lazy way back in the before times as well. When Sk was starting but before he had truly committed to showing against Kaze's attitude about it.

Even better though - what's the scum Angle? Trading a 180 in a game where the wolves are salivating for any excuse for nonsense (see this power wagon) in order to...secure a D1 lynch on Kaze? Whom all your compatriots seem to think is my scum bro? Which, by the nature of 180'ing on wouldn't even give me that sweet town cred?

I'm rusty, I'm not pants-on-head stupid. I 180'd because it warranted a 180.

You mentioned purging Maestro by fire being a lazy thing 'for the moment'. In passing. While you didn't have a vote on anyone. That is not at all the same thing as instigating discussion about the Maestro wagon and the motives/utility of the votes on him. I gave that as an example of lack of scumhunting investment. Your mention of the Maestro option being lazy isn't, and such investment is all but completely absent from your initial play.

No, you didn't do a 180 for the purpose of saving Kaze; that thought never occurred to me and the notion is absurd. It will save you if anyone - you may be under scrutiny for the 180, but less, I suspect, than if you were currently supporting an SK lynch, with or without a vote. But I'll always dance the dance with you, Spy : Why didn't you vote Aero in the first place?

Plum- Probsscum. Why? "Man notscience is so scummy" and doesn't link to any reasonings why I was scum, but it's fine because he swapped his vote at the end of the post so it's un-VCA'able!

I guess I see why you might say this; it is a tendency I have when I have a largish block to catch up on to vote multiple times along the readthrough. I didn't fill out formally the full reasons for wanting to vote you at that point - if you had been my top votechoice by the end I expect I would have, and done a more thorough overall look at you as well. I did note my dissatisfaction and disbelief at your Aero vote, which was what mainly felt scumy from you at that point in the reread. To fill it out more fully: I didn't at all like the Aero wagon and your vote on him for putting Brian at L-1 seemed to bald and too easy. Perfunctory 'voted dude to L-1 on page 2 before everyone's even posted = votable, I can vote this dude for this reason' without considering or examining the relationship of the behavior to a scum mindset. Biased by my impression that it

wasn't

related to a scum mindset on Aero's part - too large risk of extreme attention for little enough reward, really. Coupled with the equally bland read post that followed shortly. But you didn't turn out to be the scummiest overall up to the point of me catching up.

[Plum]

EBWOP: Also, I'm a girl

[notscience]

I'm not sure what song and dance you're up to, still, but it stops now:

I'm in a neighborhood with NS. Without tipping my hand entirely, considering that its a night-only neighborhood and "the meta" as well as personal experience this lended me to believe far more in an NS town than scum. I said this before the game started - as well as suggesting the crumb and trying to bait a fake neighbor claim in case one of us died.

So, like I said before, this is patently false because, while not air tight by any margin, I was willing to call this town out of the gate. That's done.

And this is the thing.

Our role does not confirm the alignment of the other player.

And he wants to call me town

out of the gate

without actively trying to get a read on me? And then his lying bit- isn't it against my wincon as town (which he says I am) to lie such as that?

[notscience]

Also I'm not as sure about plum anymore because she's being pretty transparent

[SpyreX]

You mentioned purging Maestro by fire being a lazy thing 'for the moment'. In passing. While you didn't have a vote on anyone. That is not at all the same thing as instigating discussion about the Maestro wagon and the motives/utility of the votes on him. I gave that as an example of lack of scumhunting investment. Your mention of the Maestro option being lazy isn't, and such investment is all but completely absent from your initial play.

No, you didn't do a 180 for the purpose of saving Kaze; that thought never occurred to me and the notion is absurd. It will save you if anyone - you may be under scrutiny for the 180, but less, I suspect, than if you were currently supporting an SK lynch, with or without a vote. But I'll always dance the dance with you, Spy : Why didn't you vote Aero in the first place?

Sigh.

"The moment" is a lurker lynch today. All other things being equal, there's no 'discussion' to be had about a player not playing D1. Its either kill, or wait. When actual things are happening, its lazy. There is no utility and there is very little useful - one of the many reasons why lurkers are a plague that do need to be purged by fire.

Yes, trying to scatter the wagon and 'save' Kaze by voting would be absurd - which is probably why I never said I was doing that. I'm saying from multiple people, you included, were sure as hell listing me as scum with Kaze. So, I 180'd a position on SK to bus a partner to get nothing out of it. So, again, whats the motive as scum to 180 there in any situation but especially if Kaze is also scum?

And, how can you even pretend to straight face say that I'd be under more scrutiny when the power train happened after I changed my vote?

As for not voting Aero its almost like I said why back then. The wagon didn't need "steam" - it needed the opposite, in fact. It needed to not be in a position where a hero speedballed it out of control without other things happening or a teehee self hammer. And, of course, its kind of hard to hammer from on a wagon.

And this is the thing.

Our role does not confirm the alignment of the other player.

And he wants to call me town out of the gate without actively trying to get a read on me? And then his lying bit- isn't it against my wincon as town (which he says I am) to lie such as that?

Confirmed is a pipe dream. You can chase that dragon all you want.

What it does, and what I said, is give reason to believe

all other things equal that you were

town.

Says is the wrong tense. Said. Much like after I asked what the hell you were doing and you committed to this nonsense. However, today isn't the day for that. This could still very will be a stupid crusade but it is extremely suspect.

[fferyllt]

I can see why the neighborhood would make town-NotSci freaking paranoid.