Red Wine Mafia: Game Over

[fferyllt]

No, that would be being nice.

No, that would be refining a currently shit read. If you're town, it behooves us both to work this out.

[Cabd]

Fine. Do tell. Why do you think I voted you in the first place, and what is it you think was missing from your posts?

[fferyllt]

I think you voted me because I was doing what I called Tammy out for, more or less floating through the game. There was a point between my vote and yours where the lack of something to sink my teeth into bothered me, but not enough to shake things up in a player list with a number of players unknown to me. I wanted to observe longer. The lack of stuff going on pushed observation in the direction of apathy.

[Cabd]

Wrong. Two more tries.

[fferyllt]

No reason to try. If that's not it, it's something in a personal blind space and I won't see it from my own vantage point.

[Empire]

Putting up the strong townreads now (Tammy / Katsuki / chamber / Llamarble) first, the weaker townreads (T S O / projectmatt / CTD) when I come back tonight.

Tammy:

• The best way to read Tammy is to see how she reacts to suspicion. There's a colossal gap between how she takes being suspected as town vs. scum -- as town, she tends to takes suspicion almost as a personal attack and reacts very violently / explosively whereas she tries to tone that down quite a bit more as scum. The way she responded to Cabd / ffery in posts like #282 is representative of her town game (in particular, the sarcastic / dismissive way she calls Cabd "Mr. Tammy Meta Extraordinaire" and tells him to go talk to me about her meta).
  
• I like that her statement in #254 that she put herself in observation mode early in this game because she felt like she could just do that here, it shows she's not interested in catering to the audience and has confidence in her ability to naturally be obvtown over time (these are particularly strong Tammy-town traits as she has about as much confidence in her scum game as I do).
  
• Her comment in #437 where she's suggesting that I've been ignoring her is also a great sign of the Tammy-town as I think she'd be, well, scared shitless around me frankly if she were scum in this game with me.

chamber:

• The major thing with chamber is his sheer level of mad at Pjovek. From my understanding, chamber tends to only really feel some sort of investment in the game when he's town and when he's having fun (see: this post + his dislike of being scum generally). His reaction to Pjovek seemingly disrupting the game fits the bill with how I'd expect him to react as town (shows that he cares about the game and is steamed that someone is disrupting his enjoyment), I think he'd be a lot more likely to let it slide / not really give a shit as scum.
  
• Llamarble already went into this, but I liked his knee-jerk reaction scumreads a lot, especially #308 and the level of surprise / shock in it. As a general matter, I think scum try to be way more careful with their reads / thoughts / positions in the game and are way less likely to post unprompted, unedited responses like those.

The Silver Bard / Katsuki:

• The kind of cheeky / wifomy claim in #9 is stuff that for some reason I see come from town way more often than scum (if I had to go Pretentious Mafia Theory for a bit, I'd say it's probably because scum tend to play a lot more stiff / awkwardly in the early game than town usually do). The reason I didn't see it as a slam dunk at the time was because of his off-site experience at teamliquid, where they apparently do some uh pretty weird shit, and I wasn't sure he'd appreciate me talking about where he came from -- I know when I first started playing games here, I really didn't like talking about my old site due to the flack it gets.
  
• The "I know I'm town so people scumreading me makes me question their motives" attitude in #93 rings genuine, especially given what he says in #97 about the transparency of his town game. It gives me the impression that he thinks his townieness should be so apparent to everyone that he finds it hard to believe others wouldn't see it.
  
• Speaking of #97, I liked that he was so open about the level of transparency / accuracy people should be expecting from him + the suggestion that people should lynch him if he fails to meet this standard. I don't think he'd created such expectations for his play he knew he wouldn't be able to fulfill as scum.
  
• Katsuki's a lot harder to get a handle on because I find his playstyle very hard to read but I really liked #152. My interpretation of the post was that it was a kind of "sigh of relief" type of reaction from Katsuki -- from what I remember, Katsuki tends to view himself as an easy target as town due to his playstyle so I saw the post as him being relieved that he doesn't have to worry about being attacked.

Llamarble:

• I tend to really hesitate to give Llamarble an early read as I've learned the hard way that he can have a really slow start as town. That being said, as a general matter, he tends to become way more involved in the game the more it continues when he's town whereas when he's scum, he just kinda stagnates in limpness for basically the entire game. The progression from the more cursory stuff #65 to more detailed / intensive posts like #412 + #420 fits the aggressive gamesolving I know he does when he approaches the game as town.
  
• Minor things like his confidence / cheekiness levels also strongly point in a town-'marble direction. Examples include the "teachings in Advanced Mafia" line in #412 and the entirety of #359.

P-edit:
@Llamarble: *sigh* whatever then. For what it's worth, my soup is a ways smaller than yours.

[Pjovek]

Wrong. Two more tries.

No reason to try. If that's not it, it's something in a personal blind space and I won't see it from my own vantage point.

Can you guys post even one line about somebody that's not the other person of you two?

[Llamarble]

It's good to have things going on in parallel.
Tammy-Empire ought to bring good things, and ffery-cabd also seems to be leading to good things.

If you're feeling left out, you could keep attacking Chamber-town for a while until we lynch you for it?

[Llamarble]

In my current heightened state, I have noticed that ABR is scum.
So that can be today's lynch.
But there is still the rest of the game to figure out first.

[Katsuki]

Not much need to figure the rest of the game out right now if we already have ABR.

One scum at a time~

[Llamarble]

Projectmatt iS OBVSCUM HEHEHAHHAHAHA
KIWF
Maybe not as obvious as ABR though hard to say.

Anyhow Empire + Projectmatt + ABR are all scum.

Chamber, Kats, Cabd and I are not scum.

Tammy has made progress toward not scum. As has Pjovek, much as he deserves to Get Dunked.
Ffery will hopefully become town off of this interaction with cabd or something.
Mindgamer has that ehhhhh this guy would probably end up flipping town maybe quality to him.
CTD has the minorest hint of towniness.
I do not get the Espy wagon.
TSO, Cephrir occupy the maybescum slot, but we're not lynching either of them today because they aren't completely clear cut yet.

[Katsuki]

Mind as well do this today.

Unvote, Vote: ABR

[Llamarble]

Not much need to figure the rest of the game out right now if we already have ABR.

One scum at a time~

My IQ may only be this high once in November. Caffeine is a powerful drug and must be maximized.
I will VOTE: ABR though. This is the chosen wagon of the townblock.

[Llamarble]

Hrrmph. It is possible PM & ABR are not both scum.
So maybe we just proceed with ABR turbolynch and I shall just have to drink more soda D2.

[Llamarble]

Cabd is town for complete failure to scumhunt.
Chamber is town for being mad.
CTD is scum for not self-voting.
Empire is... VOTE: Empire
Espeonage is probably town.
Mindgamer is town so far.
Pjovek should probably be replaced.
Tammy / Projectmatt may contain an empirebuddy.

Actually I may have gotten everything right on the first try (well except maybe CTD who I did admit was not a :reallly: real read).

[Cabd]

So is the empire-scum read something you can explain or is it beyond the understanding of the rest of us?

[Llamarble]

I want to let Tammy-Empire develop a little more but after that sure.

[Cabd]

MMkay~

[Pjovek]

It's good to have things going on in parallel.
Tammy-Empire ought to bring good things, and ffery-cabd also seems to be leading to good things.

If you're feeling left out, you could keep attacking Chamber-town for a while until we lynch you for it?

Something might have come out of it 10 pages ago but now they're just repeating the same meta shit over and over without ever saying anything so it's just clutter by now

[mykonian]

votecount

espeonage (5): empire, tammy, projectmatt, fferyllt, mindgamer
mindgamer (3): Albert B. Rampage, espeonage
Albert B. Rampage (2): katsuki, Llamarble
fferyllt (2): cabd, cephrir
pjovek (1): chamber
chamber (1): pjovek
T S O (1): crashtextdummie

Not voting (1): TSO

With 15 alive it takes 8 to lynch.

[projectmatt]

I sort of townread Llamarble in spite of the fact this reads are almost the polar opposites of mine. I am shamelessly prod-dodging right now because I know I won't be able to get to this game again until Sunday, probably.

Empire, I am interested in hearing your other townreads but more specifically I am interested in knowing who you have scumreads on apart from Espeonage. Get to that.

[Espeonage]

Unvote

I'll come up with a better spot for this vote later, it really didn't serve its purpose where it was.

Tammy is still my biggest read, empire pings me as pretty terrible for not mentioning at all where his scum reads lie. However I'm not seeing this supposed empire/tammy thing that Llama seems to.

I get the impression that one of Cabd and ffery is scum, but I really can't point out which one. One is stringing along another to stay away from having to engage with the rest of the game, just not sure which way that goes. And I want this isolated banter to end. So if you are the townie in that couple, please make an active attempt to get into the gritty of todays play. If only so we can get a good read on the other.

Outside of them, I'm not getting anything bigger than little pings from various people for isolated reasons. Still not happy with Mindgamer, I'm hoping ABR gets more interested closer to deadline otherwise he's pinging me, I have no read whatsoever on Project thus far. Everyone else is sitting in my town to townish pool.

[Cephrir]

Llamarble, do you also have something against reasons?

I agree with you about ABR, but didn't you shoot me down for that earlier? Maybe it was someone else.

ffery is still scum though, and I don't even know what Cabd's talking about.

[Tammy]

I was having trouble deciding on a top suspect between Espeon and ffery. Other scumleans include ABR and Pjo.

I guess what it boils down to is, I've seen you be town quite a few times, and I've doubted you a couple of those times, but in none of those cases did you look like this! I don't agree with your objection that people aren't playing mafia- we do have some lurkers, and we do have Pjo not really playing, but that's not that big a deal. You recovered a little with the Tammy interaction but it's not enough for me.

Even though I like the Espeonage wagon, it's a little scary, because ffery's on it and because Mindgamer's vote was so bad. So for now I'm gonna go with this. I'm worried about possibly costing the town a valuable asset, but I can't let that hold me back all the damn time.

VOTE: ffery

More on this story as it develops! I may also try looking at fferyscum again even though I failed pretty savagely at it in Hard Boiled.

:/

You've never played with scum-me so it's at least a little understandable that my play here rings alarms. Cabd on the other hand knows that I'm not a ball of fire in every town game, so if he's town he's not going to have a whole lot of excuse for misreading me after my eventual flip.

Would you expect that Syry would be able to read you just as well or differently than you expect Cabd to read you? Because, in mafia.raptured when Syry was reading you completely wrong, you didn't set up this preemptive blame to get him to change his read; you tried to work with him.

[Tammy]

Okay I thought the ffery/cabd dance would be interesting, but it's not.