Mini 1517 - Game Over - The Sun Sets on Duskville

[AbboTT]

You do realise noone other than Mhork is going to read that so anything expressed by either of you in what I assume will be larger and larger walls will not be discussed by the town as a whole.

Oh yeah. It was for him. The TL;DR was to spare everyone else the bullshit.

[AbboTT]

Abbott: That makes a lot more sense. Care to join me on his wagon?

I don't know what to think of the guy right now, to be honest. He really seems defeated. Lots of ego in this game so I understand the feels. He's a difficult read for me.

I am starting to see that some of my thoughts on Espeonage might have been overly nit-picky. For example, the big smoking gun I thought I had (all the way back on page five) looks like it may have just been an accident in retrospect.

Kind of confused at the moment. My vote is looking for a new home, but I think I need to sleep on it.

[Alduskkel]

Vote Count 1.13

Espeonage (4) - AbboTT, jmo16mla, Blueberry, Elyse
Albert B. Rampage (3) - Thor665, Haschel Cedricson, Micc
FakeGod (2) - Sir Bastion, Illume
Elyse (2) - Espeonage, Albert B. Rampage
Illume (1) - FakeGod
AbboTT (1) - Lord Mhork

Not Voting (0)

With 13 alive it is 7 to lynch. Deadline is on December 1st at 8 p.m. PST.

Countdown:
(expired on 2013-12-01 20:00:00)

[Thor665]

So, take your votes, and place them somewhere else, that's my recommendation. Unless you think that you're better than the 40 players that formed a majority to mislynch me in the past 4 games. Then you can go right ahead and vote for me.

Yeah, those...waaaaait a minute, *I* was one of those 40...
Of course I was cum, so maybe I was better

You do need a PR management team if it's happened to you 4 games in a row though, that's not just dumb town, that's something in your playstyle, and I am not fond of it as a meta setup either, wherein you can do gak like you did last game and be able to say 'whelp, do that as town, so...' which fills me not with joy-joy.

Come on, Thor, Elyse is overdue for a lynch.

I actually agree with her on the Illume based aspect of her case, but, sure, let's rattle around and see what happens, she ahsn't screamed town to me yet, and it's new and fresh smelling.

Unvote: ABR
Vote: Elyse

I'm done arguing about this dude, if you want to get a read off a joke vote not even two pages in, that's fine I don't Smurfing care, feel free to use it to peg me as scum, for whatever reason you can come up with. People(Including yourself, several times) have asked me repeatedly and repeatedly about it, and if you don't like my unchanging explanation, that Smurf well sucks, cause I don't have another one. Like I've already said in post 89, I wasn't aware we were out of the RVS yet, seeing as not three posts before my "counter-counter-counter wagon" post(AT THE TOP OF PAGE SMURFING 2) Blueberry had placed an RVS vote on me as well.

1. Clearly you do care, because you're not even talking about the rest of the game - you can add that to the list of 'bad reasons Thor thinks you are scum.'

2. I do not find your unchanging story to matter one way or the other - I'm pretty sure scum are capable of sticking to a story and find it odd that you even bring this up, I wasn't even aware people were saying they wanted the story to change, or that they'd find a change scummy. You invented a point out of whole cloth, and then knocked it down to act like you proved something.

3. Yes, I understand that since it was the magical joke phase that you want me to believe it cannot be held against you. I have explained to you why I do not agree and you responded to my stance by just Smurfing screaming at me. Color me very unsold.

If you'd like me to buy that you should remotely be thought about as town do me a turn and comment on the rest of the game.
I still am very interested in fitting you for a rope necktie.

[Thor665]

I actually ended up missing Page 13+14.
Then I read them and realized I hadn't missed much

I sort of want to write off both Mhork and AbboTT as pure town v. town because both of them care so much about being right. I didn't read any of their stuff but will go ahead and declare that I feel AbboTT won simply because he looked townish prior to this. In any case those are pointless attacks and too complicated to be doing anything with at this stage - both of you should find another target and talk about the issues with each other a bit later and in more digestible bites.

@Mhork - to answer your question about ABR...well, I suspect you should probably just do a bit of meta research for yourself. With a player who has been around as long as he has let me just go out on a limb and say 'yes, he has done that multiple times as town...and also probably multiple times as scum' It's a side effect of being in so many games you start playing triple blind fake outs with your meta and having to debate how complicated of a read you want to apply on someone.

If you want to lynch him because you think he is scum, sweet, call me up I'll still be game for the wagon. But don't make the case around 'he posted an awkward sounding opener, does he do that as town?' because...seriously?

Now we can both potentially look forward to Day 3 when I fakeclaim SK to get someone lynched, and we'll have this conversation again.

[Thor665]

I've never fakeclaimed scum though, or Miller...but I think I've fakeclaimed SK as town more than once and I have claimed Mafia as Mafia to get a win.
...hurm.

[Blueberry]

Why do you find Espeonage the worst of the wagon compared to the others?

I didn't like how he opportunistically/sheepily jumped on the most popular wagon instead of having reads of his own/being unconfident in his reads. That said, I saw him scummy in his own right, I didn't see the whole Illume wagon scummy (rather horrible like I said) and just picked a random dude from it. At the time, anyway, he seems much more town right now.

To everyone making comments about how I'm not "driving" like you would normally expect me to be.
Take a look at the wagons at the moment.
Figure out which is, by far, leading.
Then ask yourself which one I started - and if you don't think I started it tell me who did.
Then kindly facepalm yourselves for me.

No, you didn't start the Illume wagon. Everyone literally decided to vote Illume for a dumb reason at the same time. It wasn't you leading the wagon and others following you, not at all.

Stop prodding me, ugh.

Maybe I like lurking?

What the hell, FakeGod? Are you serious?

Illume was at L-1, but no one hammered. It means we're dealing with a scum team who's more patient and isn't prone to hammer someone out of the blue. Further attempts to bait quickhammers are futile and unnecessary.

Wait, do you actually think that scum would quickhammer/practically commit suicide like that? At many times I swear you sound like you're playing for the first time even though you joined in 2010, which is kinda suspicious/fakey.

Vote: FakeGod

[Elyse]

@Micc
Espeonage is voting for me for terrible reasons, one of which he explicitly told me not to suspect Albert for. I can't ignore that. Albert is still a good wagon but Espeo is a much better one.

@Thor
Please tell me you aren't serious. You agree with me concerning the validity of Espeo's case but still vote for me? What kind of backwards logic is that?

And if you repeat that bullshit of my wagon being fresh I will make it my mission to get you lynched this game because I know you're better than that.

[Espeonage]

Because wagoning gets info m'dear.

[Elyse]

I don't believe that question was directed at you.

And yes I know it does but why not wagon something you think is SCUM? Or someone with awful reasoning?

[Espeonage]

Doesn't mean I'm not allowed to answer.

Because you might not be in a position to make such a wagon happen given the current game momentum. So why not ride it while you have time.

[Thor665]

I didn't like how he opportunistically/sheepily jumped on the most popular wagon instead of having reads of his own/being unconfident in his reads. That said, I saw him scummy in his own right, I didn't see the whole Illume wagon scummy (rather horrible like I said) and just picked a random dude from it. At the time, anyway, he seems much more town right now.

What is your read of ABR at the moment?

@Thor
Please tell me you aren't serious. You agree with me concerning the validity of Espeo's case but still vote for me? What kind of backwards logic is that?

And if you repeat that bullSmurf of my wagon being fresh I will make it my mission to get you lynched this game because I know you're better than that.

1. I don't see what agreeing with you about Espeo has to do with voting you. Even if Espeo is wrong about that situation it's not like you look brilliantly townish last I checked - why, do you think you do?

2. You wagon is super fresh.

why not wagon something you think is SCUM? Or someone with awful reasoning?

Because people seem to think Illume isn't scum at the moment, so there is too much horrible reasoning to do battle with.

[Micc]

Do you agree or disagree with my conclusion line? If you disagree please back up that stance with evidence.

Hey Jmo, please answer this.

Espeonage:
Can you explain your case against Elyse again? I'm not sure I understand it at this point.

Thor:
Where is this fakeclaim SK discussion coming from?

[Haschel Cedricson]

Doesn't mean I'm not allowed to answer.

Actually it does. Thor's a big boy; he's capable of defending himself.

Unvote; Vote: Espeonage

.

Right now, I can tell you that I have no strong scumreads. HC is my best bet, and Sir Bastion. I can't prove it nor do I have a written case. I can also tell you that I'm underslept and overworked, and have had little time to focus on this game so far. I'm better at discerning scum after a few kills. I've never been endgamed as town. The beginning is not where I shine, and yes, I've been lynched as vanilla town in the last 4 games I've played in the past month and a half, and it makes me tired, and it makes me not care about how I come across, because, what's one more? So, take your votes, and place them somewhere else, that's my recommendation. Unless you think that you're better than the 40 players that formed a majority to mislynch me in the past 4 games. Then you can go right ahead and vote for me.

This is the most blatant appeal to emotion I've seen in a long time.

It's just as bad to think that someone who doesn't have any strong reads is scummy. You want to lynch me because I'm less certain than everybody else? Fine, then just say so. Don't convince yourself I'm scum because "hur dur antitown".

No, I want to lynch you because you stated two players were scummy, gave a specific accusation (distancing), claimed that other people could find the evidence on their own, and then admitted that you had no actual evidence of distancing at all. Nothing is wrong with being less than certain about a read. A lot is wrong with being uncertain about a read and making up a fake case to justify it.

I'm fine with either an Esp/ABR lynch today.

Why do you find Espeonage the worst of the wagon compared to the others?

I didn't like how he opportunistically/sheepily jumped on the most popular wagon instead of having reads of his own/being unconfident in his reads. That said, I saw him scummy in his own right, I didn't see the whole Illume wagon scummy (rather horrible like I said) and just picked a random dude from it. At the time, anyway, he seems much more town right now.

To everyone making comments about how I'm not "driving" like you would normally expect me to be.
Take a look at the wagons at the moment.
Figure out which is, by far, leading.
Then ask yourself which one I started - and if you don't think I started it tell me who did.
Then kindly facepalm yourselves for me.

No, you didn't start the Illume wagon. Everyone literally decided to vote Illume for a dumb reason at the same time. It wasn't you leading the wagon and others following you, not at all.

Stop prodding me, ugh.

Maybe I like lurking?

What the hell, FakeGod? Are you serious?

Illume was at L-1, but no one hammered. It means we're dealing with a scum team who's more patient and isn't prone to hammer someone out of the blue. Further attempts to bait quickhammers are futile and unnecessary.

Wait, do you actually think that scum would quickhammer/practically commit suicide like that? At many times I swear you sound like you're playing for the first time even though you joined in 2010, which is kinda suspicious/fakey.

Vote: FakeGod

Hey Blueberry, do you have anything to contribute that comes from the latter third of the game?

[Lord Mhork]

I am very curious to know what Thor and Haschel think of my Espeonage observations.

I don't like an Illume lynch for reasons stated in 106.
More importantly I don't like

any

lynch this far from the deadline having not heard anything from our two prodigal lurkers. L-1 with two absent and

weeks

left on the deadline? Odd behavior in my book.

I'm going to VOTE: Espeonage. I can't believe he has zero votes right now. He has to be at least in the top 3 scum-reads right now.

I don't like the focus on the lynch aspect of wagons over the pressure aspect. No townie would seriously think that a lynch would happen this early. They're more focused on trying to figure one another out. Scum tend to be the ones who worry about quicklynches and early day lynches because that's what wagons are for them.

Also DING DING DING DING 'the top 3 scum reads'? Not his? Since when are townies so concerned about who everyone else thinks is scum?

I have two. But I was talking collectively and therefore including myself, as that seems to be a popular one.

DING DING DING DING

Why the hell would any townie talk like that? Who cares if you are a popular target? You should know that you're town. It shouldn't be a question. This is one of those things where scum try to be over reasonable and act like they're super protown to an absurd degree.

I was going to OMGUS him. But I _actually_ smelled scum and therefore had better things to do. I was done with RVS and therefore not interested in OMGUS.

It's not confusing. It's not contradictory. I was focused elsewhere. That whole line of discussion is almost as boring and unproductive as the counter counter counter wagon conversation.

There are legitimate things to discuss. The case on espeonage and his inability to rebut, for one.

I don't understand or care why you guys seem to think I'm stupid, but I don't like it getting in the way of the hunt.

"Look I'm a really protown player and I didn't have to time to attack what I said was scummy behavior instead I found other things other people said were scummy so I went along with those. I'M SUPER PROTOWN GET OFF MY BACK."

Seriously though. You can only focus on one thing at a time? Also why are you so arrogant? This line of discussion isn't even close to unproductive. Neither was counter counter counter conversation.

In post 146, AbboTT wrote:
I have two. But I was talking collectively and therefore including myself, as that seems to be a popular one.

Can you explain this more?

Sure thing. What I meant was if we were taking an honest tally of the

town's

scum reads right now, I believe he'd average out into the top three. I also believe I would.

To clarify, marking oneself as a scum read is just bad. Uou know you're town, if you're town. Townies don't entertain the notion they could be scum.

His "on the ball" does not mean town explanation seems fake. I think he didn't want to lock himself into a townread on Micc so early on and bs'd his way out of it.

Then why would he ever say that he was on the ball then? It seems like a sloppy set of reads and explanation, I'll agree...but I actually think that makes it more likely a town tell.

Can someone please direct me to the illume case? I'm very interested in his L-1

I made mine here
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 5#p5460885
Micc is the only other one, and this is his;
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 3#p5465153
Which...really, is just mine again, but this time ABR noticed it. Not so stoked about the ABR vote at this stage.

What's your take on the case and wagon?

I like those reasonings and wagon and stuff, but what I really want is more AbboTT pressure. He's being mega scum here.

Not really, I think it's foolish to be saying you have to have top reads to be an active participant in the game. I have a heap of town reads, doesn't mean I'm going to go throwing them all over the place because READZ IS AWESOMEZ!

It is 7 pages in with a bunch of barely content.

PEDIT: No, I really don't. We have discussion parts of the site, keep it out of my games.

See I enjoy the first part of this post, but that PEDIT drives me insane. It's posts like this that give me anxiety.

Not getting the Abbott votes right now. To me he seems like a little bit dumb town (no offence).

Here, allow me to explain.

He votes for jmo16mla on the premise that "Calling people's actions scummy during RVS feels scummy to [him]". Putting aside the fact that he's wrong, jmo16mla was the not the first person to do so; Lord Mhork had already stated that an RVS-stage post made by AbboTT himself looked bad. So why doesn't AbboTT attack Mhork? Because doing so will increase scrutiny on him.

Later AbboTT says that he "almost OMGUS'd him". Earlier I described the use of the word "OMGUS" as fascinating, and here's why: An OMGUS vote is one made with no justification except "Player A is voting for me." In this case, AbboTT SHOULD have found Mhork suspicious for calling an RVS-stage post scummy, so a vote for Lord Mhork would NOT have been OMGUS. If a player is being scummy, then they're scummy; you don't worry about if they're voting for you because if you have a valid reason to vote them in the first place.

This suggests to me that AbboTT's stated reasons for his vote on jmo16mla are fake.

I understand the reasoning, but honestly to me Abbott seems like a player who doesn't even know what OMGUS exactly means. I'm not ruling him out just because of that of course, but I think we should look at other players first.

He has been on site for awhile though, BB. What do you make of that with regard to not knowing what OMGUS exactly means?

To clarify, marking oneself as a scum read is just bad. Uou know you're town, if you're town. Townies don't entertain the notion they could be scum.

Uh, sure they do. I promise you I'm not going to think of you a any more townie if you say "well I know I'm town" and crap like that.

I'm not saying you vomit the "I know I'm town" stuff, but you don't talk like you're possibly scum. Because you konw you aren't. There is literally no reason at all any townie would entertain the notion they could be scum.

Because they know they can't.

~Through Page Eight~

[Elyse]

1. I don't see what agreeing with you about Espeo has to do with voting you. Even if Espeo is wrong about that situation it's not like you look brilliantly townish last I checked - why, do you think you do?

If you agree with me then you agree that Espeo is scum. Otherwise, you don't agree with me. And if you agree that Espeo is scum, then you should be voting him or at least saying why the person you are voting is scummier. You are instead voting for me. Do you see my problem here?

And yes I do think I look brilliantly townish. Ok maybe not brilliantly but definitely a dull glow. I feel like I'm one of the few logical people in this game right now and I can't see why everyone isn't jumping all over Espeonage for his scummy contradiction and fake reasoning.

2. You wagon is super fresh.

why not wagon something you think is SCUM? Or someone with awful reasoning?

Because people seem to think Illume isn't scum at the moment, so there is too much horrible reasoning to do battle with.

You don't have any scumreads besides Illume?

If so, who and why aren't you voting them?

If not, how will voting for me get people to vote for your only scumread?

[FakeGod]

@Blueberry: I've been around since 2010, and I see things like that all the time.

For example, last game I played (it ended a week ago) contained a scum who quickhammered a player d1. He was lynched d2 for his sins.

I also lurked heavily d1 in the same game. I was town.

Elyse was in the same game, so she would know what I'm talking about.

[Elyse]

Um.

Dominic was also retarded and he was only lynched because I roleblocked him and there wasn't a kill, not because he quickhammered.

You scum FG?

[FakeGod]

No. I rolled my favorite role again.

Are you scum?

[Elyse]

No.

But are you going to address the fact that your reason for keeping someone at L-1 was incorrect?

[FakeGod]

Dom was going to be policy lynched at the end of d2 regardless of what you said.

Your claim was just icing on the cake.

My reason for keeping someone at L-1 was very correct.

[Elyse]

No he wasn't.

People weren't even voting him until I kept saying "Dom is scum. I'm almost 100% sure."

[Thor665]

Thor:
Where is this fakeclaim SK discussion coming from?

I'm fine with either an Esp/ABR lynch today.

Your ABR case seems to be better formed and more issue filled - why are you choosing Espeo over him? It's not like there's a lack of ABR lynch support, and you're calling him out big time right now, so...?

If you agree with me then you agree that Espeo is scum. Otherwise, you don't agree with me.

I agreed with you that the case on you as presented by Espeo is bad. If people using bad logic and cases always equated to scum this would be a much easier game than it is.
Sadly, town use bad logic and reasons all the time.

And if you agree that Espeo is scum, then you should be voting him or at least saying why the person you are voting is scummier. You are instead voting for me. Do you see my problem here?

...no?

You don't have any scumreads besides Illume?

I do.

If so, who and why aren't you voting them?

ABR, because there isn't enough heat to make any cracks yet, and also you, because there is. Honestly, I'd be willing to vote and lynch a large number of players in this game currently.

If not, how will voting for me get people to vote for your only scumread?

Regardless of my read on you and my read on others, a strong wagon on you will force others to react to it one way or the other. That's Mafia 101, yeah?

[Espeonage]

HC, it was a pretty simple question. It was entirely moot about whether it matters if I put in my 2c or not.

[FakeGod]

I'm pretty sure on this, Elyse.