Newbie 1449: Return of the Van [Game Over!]

[fferyllt]

I think this is correct.

Trisania

thiscantgowrong

SafetyDance

Cervantes

fferyllt

Montosh

hayatoBL
WBOCampfire1104
Grimgroove (SE)

GuyInFreezer

Nobody Special (IC)

Thanks for replacing in, SD. Long time, no play!

[Untrod Tripod]

Votecount 2.7

fferyllt
Grimgroove - 1 (WBO)
hatatoBL
Nobody Special - 2 (Grimgroove, Trisania, fferyllt)
SafetyDance
Trisania
WBOCampfire1104

Not Voting - 2 (Nobody Special, hayatoBL)

With 7 alive it's 4 to lynch. Deadline is 12/5 at 5PM EST.

[SafetyDance]

I think this is correct.

Trisania

thiscantgowrong

SafetyDance

Cervantes

fferyllt

Montosh

hayatoBL
WBOCampfire1104
Grimgroove (SE)

GuyInFreezer

Nobody Special (IC)

Thanks for replacing in, SD. Long time, no play!

Cheers. Yes, long time. I take it by the fact this thread isn't 50+ pages and you haven't self-hammered that you're scum? This should be easy.

Unvote

Because I don't know where my vote is or who's it on. Standard practice anyway.

I've read 8 pages of these walls and going insane, so will continue on tonight. Liking Cervantes/Trish slots so far for newb-Scum, if not one of Grim/GiF.

Looking at the flips, will probably just vote whoever is skating today and I find most scummy. Although TNE was a good lynch, so bonus points for pushing that through even if it didn't work out.

[fferyllt]

I didn't like the TNE lynch. Would have opposed it if I had been in the game at that point.

[Grimgroove]

Why do you continue making a point of that?

[Grimgroove]

Have you got time for a 1 on 1? I feel like frying you

[fferyllt]

It's 6 am. I haven't started a pot of coffee.

It's probably the ideal time to 1v1.

[Grimgroove]

Something suddenly came up at work, back now, hope you found time for coffee.

So yes, fferyllt, why the repeated emphasis on the TNE-lynch and you not liking it? Why do you keep bringing that up?
Could you also say "why"' you would have stopped that lynch and which arguments you would have used in order to do so?

[Grimgroove]

From my perspective he's fine, since he heavily questioned mine.

I'll be frank with you fferyllt: you're my second biggest scumread this game. My concerns from when you arrived have still not been dispelled.

I can tell.

I'm not impervious to signs that someone is suspicious of me.

To be frank in return, I'm more concerned with figuring things out than with dispelling your suspicions.

That's just the thing: I haven't really seen you try figure things out like I'm used of you.
The interactions you've been having in this game look far less meaningful than what I'm used to of you, and give the air of windowdressing.
What have you figured out so far?

[fferyllt]

Something suddenly came up at work, back now, hope you found time for coffee.

So yes, fferyllt, why the repeated emphasis on the TNE-lynch and you not liking it? Why do you keep bringing that up?
Could you also say "why"' you would have stopped that lynch and which arguments you would have used in order to do so?

I tend to perseverate about stuff. The TNE lynch is a stake in the ground, and the player it most incriminates is GiF because I feel like he should have known better and recognized the town-defiance in some of TNE's posts. It's the main reason I'm voting NS.

My argument would have focused on that tone - the town-defiance. What I'm not sure about is who I would have found more suspicious if I had been in-the-moment during day 1. Possibly GiF, though I think he would have played the game a little differently if I had been present.

[fferyllt]

From my perspective he's fine, since he heavily questioned mine.

I'll be frank with you fferyllt: you're my second biggest scumread this game. My concerns from when you arrived have still not been dispelled.

I can tell.

I'm not impervious to signs that someone is suspicious of me.

To be frank in return, I'm more concerned with figuring things out than with dispelling your suspicions.

That's just the thing: I haven't really seen you try figure things out like I'm used of you.
The interactions you've been having in this game look far less meaningful than what I'm used to of you, and give the air of windowdressing.
What have you figured out so far?

We have two games together, one of which was a complete clusterfuck, and the other of which I think I played quite solidly, though town lost in the end. I can see expecting competence from me, and I think I've brought competence to the game. The problem is that for the most part, players I want to sort further haven't been present. Though at this point, I don't expect NS to wow me with his towniness and turn the game on its ear, the question of where the second scum (assuming NS is scum) is hiding maybe should be consuming me, but I want certainty about NS before moving onward.

[WBOCampfire1104]

Honestly, I don't think I'll vote for Nobody Special. The last two people who died were "fart" townies; really horrid town players. Nobody Special is acting the same way, and his only case is my case; he's said he's constructing it, but we've been waiting, 5,6,7 days? So, I won't set a vote on NS.

I'm going to analyze the NK for tonight, with SD's replacement. If it has no effect on the lynch (based on noobiness level), I'll probably lay off my case. But as of now, my case of Grimgroove stands strong. My vote's still going to be cemented there until lynch.

[WBOCampfire1104]

Scumlist: (Explanations might follow, scum to town);
Grimgroove
SafteyDance
hayatoBL
Nobody Special
Trisiana
fferylit

[Grimgroove]

You have no case WBO. What you have shown is imagination, but not a case. The fact you have not convinced a single person should ring a bell that you're not doing it right.

[Grimgroove]

We have two games together, one of which was a complete clusterfuck, and the other of which I think I played quite solidly, though town lost in the end. I can see expecting competence from me, and I think I've brought competence to the game. The problem is that for the most part, players I want to sort further haven't been present. Though at this point, I don't expect NS to wow me with his towniness and turn the game on its ear, the question of where the second scum (assuming NS is scum) is hiding maybe should be consuming me, but I want certainty about NS before moving onward.

So you think the people who are present don't need further softening?
Can you explain your townreads on those people?

[Grimgroove]

Something suddenly came up at work, back now, hope you found time for coffee.

So yes, fferyllt, why the repeated emphasis on the TNE-lynch and you not liking it? Why do you keep bringing that up?
Could you also say "why"' you would have stopped that lynch and which arguments you would have used in order to do so?

I tend to perseverate about stuff. The TNE lynch is a stake in the ground, and the player it most incriminates is GiF because I feel like he should have known better and recognized the town-defiance in some of TNE's posts. It's the main reason I'm voting NS.

My argument would have focused on that tone - the town-defiance. What I'm not sure about is who I would have found more suspicious if I had been in-the-moment during day 1. Possibly GiF, though I think he would have played the game a little differently if I had been present.

I don't think this adds up.

"He should have known better" implies there was a strong argument for TNE-town, but there wasn't. Town defiance is not a strong argument and you of all people know that fferyllt. When did defiance become a town-tell? Can you show me where you used that before as a towntell?
And even if it were a towntell, how does it incriminate people not considering it as such, and why GiF specifically?

[WBOCampfire1104]

Here's some poking at believed town players (short, negative explanations that accompany the scumlist)
HAYATOBL: Why do you ask so many questions? It's not because I can't answer them (putting @WBO in front of the paragraph or bolding the question helps), but you seem to have a tendency to always rock players off. This is starting to seem like a more town-tactic than scum-tactic, but you could really screw your PR's if you aren't careful. PR's can act scummy sometimes.

NOBODY SPECIAL: Why don't you post much? And when you do, it's practically useless? This is getting you lynched. Your don't care attitude comes from either having strong trust in a scumpartner (still for GG) or having some type of partially-invincible town role. Which would call you for NK's, if possible.

TRISIANA: I don't really have much to say (and haven't for a while), but you seem to get rocked off balance easily. Beware. A hayato-assault might get you a lynch.

FFERYLLT: You seem to have a "I'm the boss" attitude. You kind of peck on everyone's TNE-lynch mistake, and get everyone else off balance. Kind of like hayato; a fferyllt-hayato team? Unlikely but possible.

[fferyllt]

We have two games together, one of which was a complete clusterfuck, and the other of which I think I played quite solidly, though town lost in the end. I can see expecting competence from me, and I think I've brought competence to the game. The problem is that for the most part, players I want to sort further haven't been present. Though at this point, I don't expect NS to wow me with his towniness and turn the game on its ear, the question of where the second scum (assuming NS is scum) is hiding maybe should be consuming me, but I want certainty about NS before moving onward.

So you think the people who are present don't need further softening?

Hayato has yet to reply to my last post to him.

Can you explain your townreads on those people?

I'll update my reads list later today.

[fferyllt]

Something suddenly came up at work, back now, hope you found time for coffee.

So yes, fferyllt, why the repeated emphasis on the TNE-lynch and you not liking it? Why do you keep bringing that up?
Could you also say "why"' you would have stopped that lynch and which arguments you would have used in order to do so?

I tend to perseverate about stuff. The TNE lynch is a stake in the ground, and the player it most incriminates is GiF because I feel like he should have known better and recognized the town-defiance in some of TNE's posts. It's the main reason I'm voting NS.

My argument would have focused on that tone - the town-defiance. What I'm not sure about is who I would have found more suspicious if I had been in-the-moment during day 1. Possibly GiF, though I think he would have played the game a little differently if I had been present.

I don't think this adds up.

"He should have known better" implies there was a strong argument for TNE-town, but there wasn't. Town defiance is not a strong argument and you of all people know that fferyllt. When did defiance become a town-tell? Can you show me where you used that before as a towntell?
And even if it were a towntell, how does it incriminate people not considering it as such, and why GiF specifically?

GiF specifically because I know that he has played other games with TNE and I think he has a similar level of caution to mine when it comes to scum-reading TNE for being TNE.

The last game I played with TNE (and GiF as part of the Psychlone hydra) http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=32587

TNE came under fire on day 1 of that game. Here are a few of my posts about him.

btw i'm pretty sure TNE is town here. or at least his play here is totally unlike the play from when i was scum with him.

I was also recently scum with him. Cabd was town in that game (Chef Mafia). I think it was the 3rd or 4th game I've played with him. In the others we were both town IIRC, except for hunterxhunterx. I've found that his play is very much dependent how much time he has for mafia. In general, looking back at earlier games that I didn't play but meta'd during the first game or two we played together, being (relatively) involved and serious about the game is associated with his scum play.

I'm going to review hunterxhunterx. The scum game we recently finished he only made 2-3 posts iirc and was the day 1 lynch.

Gonna quick throw my read changes in:

Mac - Town.
TNE - leaning town.
Slight niggle about Mastin for that claim demand given the caution in bork's post.
Kinda like GiF but he needs to step it up if he's town.

TNE ISO Highlights

I liked his entrance into the thread, and the first post that really gave me a town sense was actually pretty early: 291. I liked that he wasn't avoiding GiF. He didn't back down about Varsoon's early AtE. The question mark, really was his assertion of familiarity with Varsoon's xenogears play. I have'nt really seen TNE as a meta-heavy player, and this was a game he didn't play.

350 is a pretty strong stance on BRO.

356

and next post in ISO are pretty cheeky responses to being scumread by thezmon.

630 reads list is pretty iconoclastic in some ways.

885, 886 cases on his scumreads. This is way more detailed and thoughtful than what I'm used to seeing from TNE. If he's town I hope he'll play like this more often.

Subsequent back and forth with BRO feels very much like someone who thinks they are talking to scum.

I'm townreading the fuck out of this ISO.

I imagine I would have put together a similar defense in this game.

My hydra partner wasn't convinced, but we did wind up voting elsewhere.

TNE was a town PR in that game.

[Trisania]

TRISIANA: I don't really have much to say (and haven't for a while), but you seem to get rocked off balance easily. Beware. A hayato-assault might get you a lynch.

So you're basically saying I'm the weak link. Could you please cite.instances where I got "rocked off balance easily"? Because I think I was able to adequately address hayato's concerns/suspicions about me.

It's funny that we view two people differently. Grim is your scum, while hayato is mine.

[Grimgroove]

I'm liking fferyllt a bit better. It's reassuring to know her expectations of GiF are not based on thin air.

[hayatoBL]

@WBO

Please point out, which questions of mine could lead to the outing of a PR.

[fferyllt]

Here's some poking at believed town players (short, negative explanations that accompany the scumlist)
HAYATOBL: Why do you ask so many questions? It's not because I can't answer them (putting @WBO in front of the paragraph or bolding the question helps), but you seem to have a tendency to always rock players off. This is starting to seem like a more town-tactic than scum-tactic, but you could really screw your PR's if you aren't careful. PR's can act scummy sometimes.

Rocking players off balance and seeing how they react is a fundamental scumhunting tool. There are other tools: including doing the complete opposite - not rocking the boat and observing what sorts of ripples other players make in the game without interference.

NOBODY SPECIAL: Why don't you post much? And when you do, it's practically useless? This is getting you lynched. Your don't care attitude comes from either having strong trust in a scumpartner (still for GG) or having some type of partially-invincible town role. Which would call you for NK's, if possible.

There is no town role that protects from being mislynched. I wish you would stop speculating out loud about power roles. Day 3, especially if we don't lynch scum today, is when town's PRs can make a huge difference in how the game day proceeds.

TRISIANA: I don't really have much to say (and haven't for a while), but you seem to get rocked off balance easily. Beware. A hayato-assault might get you a lynch.

Your certainty that she's town, and your blantant buddying her, are two of the aspects of your play that look scummy to me. Newbtown players almost always retain suspicions about other players.

FFERYLLT: You seem to have a "I'm the boss" attitude. You kind of peck on everyone's TNE-lynch mistake, and get everyone else off balance. Kind of like hayato; a fferyllt-hayato team? Unlikely but possible.

I'm assertive in my own way, I guess. The TNE-lynch annoys me because it should have been averted/avertable, but I'll eventually get over that aspect of day 1. It stays on my mind because it's hard evidence about who is town and who is scum in this game in much the same way that Zipperflesh's NK is. I'm not primarily a hard-evidence based player, but it's something tangible from the days when I wasn't in the game and couldn't interact.

[hayatoBL]

@ffreyllt

Why are you, a new-ish to MS player, not suspicious of me - a player whose style leads to body of work reads - and those take time to tilt to town, especially among new-ish players.

Suspicions lead to questions about stances, votes, lack of votes, etc. Until this post, you haven't questioned me about stance, votes, etc.

I have a certain amount of suspicion towards every player in the game. Towards some greater than others. Though, I prioritize and choose which argument, I would like to present. My way of posting should already indicate that I spend only a fixed amount of time for MS. Thus, the argument which I think is more important comes first.

I had a disagreement with you about your move towards WBO. Besides the WBO case, the NS case and other case which include a lot about meta mainly about GiF, I don’t recall you having any other case which you strongly addressed.

My trajectory on NS is pretty solid IMO. My vote was drawn by the deadline approaching. Now that it's there, I'm leaving it because NS is dragging his heels.

Your trajectory on NS is as solid as on WBO IMO. Now that you’ve voted for NS, it just seems like there was no (or a weaker) trajectory on WBO.
Are you denying this?

You didn’t vote on WBO to apply pressure. Maybe applying pressure would work. According to your meta, you vote on someone when you want that person to be lynched. Why not be flexible about it? Why must you follow your own meta?

[fferyllt]

@ffreyllt

Why are you, a new-ish to MS player, not suspicious of me - a player whose style leads to body of work reads - and those take time to tilt to town, especially among new-ish players.

Suspicions lead to questions about stances, votes, lack of votes, etc. Until this post, you haven't questioned me about stance, votes, etc.

I have a certain amount of suspicion towards every player in the game. Towards some greater than others. Though, I prioritize and choose which argument, I would like to present. My way of posting should already indicate that I spend only a fixed amount of time for MS. Thus, the argument which I think is more important comes first.

I had a disagreement with you about your move towards WBO. Besides the WBO case, the NS case and other case which include a lot about meta mainly about GiF, I don’t recall you having any other case which you strongly addressed.

My other case is pretty tinfoil hat, and I'm treating it as such. It involves WBO, but I'm not pursuing him on that basis.

I tend not to do a lot of scenario-based research until I have reason to think the scenario could be real. I'm usually in the middle of 5-8 games at once, and this game is no exception. So, I have to prioritize my meta lines of inquiry.

IF

NS flips scum, then I'll do a deep dive into his scum games to see what his tendencies are toward his scumbuddies - ignore, townread, scumread, etc. It's possible that my suspicions about WDO will shoot through the roof if NS is scum, but it will be based on something more than my tenuous sense that there's some sort of connection between WDO (and possibly trisania) and Zipperflesh's NK.

My trajectory on NS is pretty solid IMO. My vote was drawn by the deadline approaching. Now that it's there, I'm leaving it because NS is dragging his heels.

Your trajectory on NS is as solid as on WBO IMO. Now that you’ve voted for NS, it just seems like there was no (or a weaker) trajectory on WBO.
Are you denying this?

In mafia, trajectory means something pretty specific to me. And my trajectory on WDO has more of a trail mostly because he's been around at times to at least talk to. If my vote on the GiF/NS slot came as a surprise then you really need to look at my ISO again.

You didn’t vote on WBO to apply pressure. Maybe applying pressure would work. According to your meta, you vote on someone when you want that person to be lynched. Why not be flexible about it? Why must you follow your own meta?

I don't follow my meta. My meta follows me.

-------

If you were going to make a 2 sentence case on trisania what would you include?

Who do you see as her partner and why?