Mini 1532: Mac's Mini Normal - GAME OVER~

[My Milked Eek]

And fuck. There's nothing of value in that ISO. Literally nothing. A whole lot of posturing: "I am scumhunting", "I scumhunt from the top of a tree" or "I don't give reads this early".

A lot of noise. Almost no signal. The first reads he's giving is that stupid analysis and even then it's worthless

as it still feels like IIoA

.


Here are my reads:
I have townreads on everyone but TV and frog. And I'm only excluding frog because I can't remember him posting lately, but from my vague memory I know I liked his posts. The only one I didn't have a townread on was pieguyn, but his replacement BBMolla was null-town (not a strong townread in other words), but I got an investigation on that slot.

Vote: TunnelVision

Way to go stupid TAB key. Bolded is what was left out.

[TunnelVision]

MME, you need to read my posts, not skim. You've got at least two blatant misreps/misunderstandings in your analysis of my last post. I directly mentioned the Aegor guilty, that post to flame and Don was my last post of the night (before bed), I frigging started the heat on SoS and the wagon but got off post claim pre mod post, and didn't have a chance to get back on (I wasn't around.) It was an easy claim to test/verify with a little time and patience.

Also, I believed you had something even before your claim. I just didn't go all willy nilly because I didn't want to tip your hand and paint a target on your back. Hence my frustration with the not so subtle escalation after a couple hours of game time. You didn't give anybody the chance to do the dirty work of trying to lynch Aegor without your claim. But it was your play, and your call. I thought it was less than ideal, given the game state, but we lynched scum and you survived the night so no complaints.

You're also ignoring the fact that both SoS and Aegor ran me up to L2 on D1. Pretty quickly. With little to no reason. Doesn't that seem fishy? SoS started the vote on me, and Aegor piled right on shortly after. Think it through

- Bauss -

[My Milked Eek]

Sorry, it took me until post #30 (29, w/e) to find something that remotely resembled anything of value. I really got demotivated by the barren wasteland that is your ISO. I shouldn't need to read your posts in detail to find your reads, I should get them from a glimpse.

MME, you need to read my posts, not skim. You've got at least two blatant misreps/misunderstandings in your analysis of my last post. I directly mentioned the Aegor guilty, that post to flame and Don was my last post of the night (before bed), I frigging started the heat on SoS and the wagon but got off post claim pre mod post, and didn't have a chance to get back on (I wasn't around.) It was an easy claim to test/verify with a little time and patience.

If you frigging started the heat on SoS, why did you get off of the wagon? Are you trying to claim you pushed that lynch?

Also, I believed you had something even before your claim. I just didn't go all willy nilly because I didn't want to tip your hand and paint a target on your back. Hence my frustration with the not so subtle escalation after a couple hours of game time. You didn't give anybody the chance to do the dirty work of trying to lynch Aegor without your claim. But it was your play, and your call. I thought it was less than ideal, given the game state, but we lynched scum and you survived the night so no complaints.

No you didn't think I had anything, you accused me of rolefishing for fucks sake. You didn't believe anything.

Let's recap your reactions to my D2 play and claim:

Role fishing is wicked scummy. I shall lynch all role fishers.

- Bauss -

Role fishing is wicked scummy. I shall lynch all role fishers.

- Bauss -

You're an idiot.

Refute with logic. I'd love to hear your brilliant responses to my "idiotic" assertion.

- Bauss -

1. I'm not rolefishing. I'm straight up asking for a claim.
2. Aegor is scum.

1) Effectively the same thing at this stage of the day. We have players that haven't even posted yet, and you're pushing for a premature claim. How'd that work out with ICENinja? K, thanks.

2) Oh yeah? I see a Wonka meme brewing...

- Bauss -

Those posts don't tell me you're preventing me from painting a target on my back, they tell me that you're the one fishing for what I knew.


And I played how I played because it's what I had to do to survive N2. I had to make sure scum really thought I was a one shot so that they might let me live, going into the thread guns blazing was my plan and it worked. It was calculated. I didn't and don't need you to keep me from painting a target on my back. Because your play D2 didn't suggest anything of that kind.

In fact nothing of your play indicates anything what you're saying. It's all tell and no show. You say you started the heat on SoS, all I'm seeing is you placing a vote:

Why the fuck aren't we lynching SoS

Lead the way!

VOTE: SoS

- Bauss -

Wow, such heat, many suspicions, too hot for silence

Nowhere did you address anything to SoS. Nowhere. There is one interaction or two:
#467 - very minor suspicion in the last sentence of the last paragraph (you're voting ICE at this post)
#468 - hydra business
#479 - you claim to have a small case on remembrance (which ceased to exist after this post)

And then that vote post.

Man, if this is putting heat on someone I can't even imagine what it must be like if you think somebody is town.

You're also ignoring the fact that both SoS and Aegor ran me up to L2 on D1. Pretty quickly. With little to no reason. Doesn't that seem fishy? SoS started the vote on me, and Aegor piled right on shortly after. Think it through

- Bauss -

Oh my, the horror. Are you ok?
Thanks for reminding me that they were going to bus you.

TL;DR for the others

TV is telling us he's doing all kind of stuff during D1 and D2 and he's lying about it.

[TunnelVision]

Lol. Critical thinking not your strong suit, huh? D1, two confirmed scum start and push a lynch on me. You think that's a hard bus? Your presumed scum QT went like this: "Hey guys, great idea... let's start a hard bus on D1. Who should we sacrifice? Not the goons... let's pick TV." ?????? Aren't we under the impression that from a game balance perspective team scum has a godfather or some other power role? Use your brain.

You're literally ignoring my explanations and logic in general.

Further, you think mafia is played on a level where a person always says what they're thinking/doing with 100% transparency? I'm not going to school you on mafia theory and play, but there is a whole other level of play that you're either unaware of or ignoring. I routinely obfuscate my real reads until game state reaches a point where those reads are critical for town knowledge and play. 20 hours into D2, sure I said I wanted to lynch you. Doesn't that leave the scum thinking "Hey, another mislynch opportunity... let's not NK MME...maybe TV will help us hang him." Couldn't that in a sense help protect you?

Also, your most recent response is even more douchie. I don't care that I got run up by scum on D1, I was just pointing to it. I didn't rage and role claim in frustration, I avoided the mislynch and we hung scum instead. That's how the game is played. Kudos to team scum for getting me to L2 on D1. Kudos to us for lynching scum two days in a row.

Go re-read my exchange with SoS. Take into account that I was only a couple votes from lynch. Read between the lines there. Actually, try reading between the lines in general. Its quite obvious I thought Fferyllt was scum, but used an angle to get her to unvote me as we neared the deadline.

- Bauss -

[ChannelDelibird]

D1, two confirmed scum start and push a lynch on me. You think that's a hard bus? Your presumed scum QT went like this: "Hey guys, great idea... let's start a hard bus on D1. Who should we sacrifice? Not the goons... let's pick TV." ?????? Aren't we under the impression that from a game balance perspective team scum has a godfather or some other power role? Use your brain.

Yeah, MME, we're not lynching this today.

Will go through this as best I can today before I leave for the Reckoning but, as of right now, I'm more likely to vote Hayato than Frog or Don.

MOD: I'll have Limited Access from the 18th-26th due to the Reckoning. I will attempt to check the thread as often as possible but it'll be busy.

[My Milked Eek]

Lol. Critical thinking not your strong suit, huh? D1, two confirmed scum start and push a lynch on me. You think that's a hard bus? Your presumed scum QT went like this: "Hey guys, great idea... let's start a hard bus on D1. Who should we sacrifice? Not the goons... let's pick TV." ?????? Aren't we under the impression that from a game balance perspective team scum has a godfather or some other power role? Use your brain.

I meant distancing. And we're thinking there's no godfather. Keep up with the times.

You're literally ignoring my explanations and logic in general.

What explanation? What logic? All I'm seeing is sad excuses and silly justifications for a non-committal-play (lol obfuscation).

Further, you think mafia is played on a level where a person always says what they're thinking/doing with 100% transparency? I'm not going to school you on mafia theory and play, but there is a whole other level of play that you're either unaware of or ignoring. I routinely obfuscate my real reads until game state reaches a point where those reads are critical for town knowledge and play.

If you intentionally obfuscate your reads you shouldn't get this worked up on someone calling you out on it.

20 hours into D2, sure I said I wanted to lynch you. Doesn't that leave the scum thinking "Hey, another mislynch opportunity... let's not NK MME...maybe TV will help us hang him." Couldn't that in a sense help protect you?

I'm not going to school you on mafia theory and play, but there is a whole other level of play that you're either unaware of or ignoring. I'm pretty sure that if you're town, the scum didn't think not to kill me because he thought that you were going to mislynch me, he didn't kill me because he's preoccupied with finding the vigilante and he thought I was useless.

Also, your most recent response is even more douchie. I don't care that I got run up by scum on D1, I was just pointing to it. I didn't rage and role claim in frustration, I avoided the mislynch and we hung scum instead. That's how the game is played. Kudos to team scum for getting me to L2 on D1. Kudos to us for lynching scum two days in a row.

How did you help in the scumlynch? I'm really curious to hear this answer. What did you do to get SoS lynched?

Stop coasting on other people figuring out who scum is. You did nothing to get SoS lynched, in fact you did the opposite. You took away your one tool to get SoS lynched. If you don't want me calling you out on that, then you shouldn't have done that and you shouldn't call me a douche in the process.

Go re-read my exchange with SoS. Take into account that I was only a couple votes from lynch. Read between the lines there. Actually, try reading between the lines in general. Its quite obvious I thought Fferyllt was scum, but used an angle to get her to unvote me as we neared the deadline.

- Bauss -

No, you're going to explain everything that "was in between the lines" instead of calling me a douche and telling me to do it myself. It's not obvious who you thought was scum, it never was, it isn't right now and it won't be in the future.

[frog]

Catch-up post incoming.

[frog]

Can we stop discussing whether BBMolla could be a Godfather or not? MME is most probably cop, and lynching an inno unless we truly suspect foul play is never a good idea. Nothing, literally nothing, has indicated the presence of a GF so far. TV, Hayato, drop it please. CDB, have town points. There's better stuff to do today.

TV: whether there's something going on on another level, it would be nice to have some clear reads from you. I don't buy your vote count analysis either, since Aegor not being on his own wagon is irrelevant, meaning you have only D1 to look at. You could conclude almost anything. However, you make a convincing case for yourself, (and may I apologise for calling your posts awful; they have been, but that fakehammer yesterday was something I loved).

@Don: Flameaxe has been proactive (rude, but proactive) and I haven't noticed anything overtly scummy from him. There was an exchange back in D1 that raised my eyebrows, but since then, nothing. Through the hostility, look at where and what he's pushing. My conclusion is that he is town. May I also point out that you're criticising Hayato for putting off the Aegor lynch, despite the fact that you literally asked for everyone to stop posting yesterday? You're more guilty of opposing progress than he is. Being on both lynches isn't inherently towny. I don't like 939. Calling bullshit, by the way: you were posting it to get towncred.

[BBmolla]

Nothing, literally nothing, has indicated the presence of a GF so far.

Two goon flips implies scum's third power is very powerful to compensate.

[TunnelVision]

Nothing, literally nothing, has indicated the presence of a GF so far.

Two goon flips implies scum's third power is very powerful to compensate.

You know, with a doc and a cop and all.... And a Vig/SK in the mix.

At least somebody gets it. Game balance considerations suggest this very strongly.

- Bauss -

[Flameaxe]

I, for one, love having someone ask why I haven't interacted with them all game. Especially when its someone who hasn't done it in the reverse way either.

Throwing that thought out there.

954 is sort of where I'm at with that lynch. Just makes the lynch a shaky idea to me. Sorry Eek, I'll sheep another day .

I'm glad my thoughts about 939 seem to have made it to frog too. I couldn't be the only one that had a bad taste regarding that post.

This thread is in dire heyato-need.

[TunnelVision]

I, for one, love having someone ask why I haven't interacted with them all game. Especially when its someone who hasn't done it in the reverse way either.

Throwing that thought out there.

954 is sort of where I'm at with that lynch. Just makes the lynch a shaky idea to me. Sorry Eek, I'll sheep another day .

I'm glad my thoughts about 939 seem to have made it to frog too. I couldn't be the only one that had a bad taste regarding that post.

This thread is in dire heyato-need.

And this is a perfectly townie response to what I did. Excellent.

- Bauss -

[Flameaxe]

Can you be less full of shit any time soon?

[don_johnson]

wasn't posting for town cred. posting it as fact in my defense. if you want to call it town cred, then call it town cred. arguing semantics is rather pointless. what you should be acknowledging is the fact.

FACT: dj was on both scum lynches and did not try and pussyfoot off either or hold either up. scum generally give themselves away in that manner. just cause you guys want to ignore that fact, does not make it any less a fact. and me bringing it up in the context in which I did should be fine. I think heyato is the last scum, so I'm not arguing this with you guys to make you think I'm town. I'm trying to explain it so you don't make a mistake in future games by ignoring things which are pretty common sense types of things.

[TunnelVision]

Can you be less full of shit any time soon?

I already said we should hang HayatoBL, and gave some of my reasons. What else would you like? Should I expand by saying I'm town, slight town, or null on the remaining players? You were my only other real suspicion outside BBMolla (cop inno), but your response is so town town town I feel warm and fuzzy now.

Don't like my style? From a very simple question, my profile of you as a player, and your response to my simple question, I strongly believe you to be town. You can call what I'm doing BS or think I'm absolutely crazy, it doesn't bother me one bit. You won't be the first to hate on it, and certainly won't be the last.

I think Hayato is our lynch for today, hands down. I'm open to discussion, but I don't see a better option for today given what we have in front of us. I'd lobby harder, but I think this will come together with relative ease. I'm holding my vote as a courtesy, as a number of players have requested he get in here and post, and we spend some time chatting through our options for the day.

I shared some voting analysis that has helped me find scum in the past, with high levels of success. I thought it helpful, though some disagree. That's fine. I pointed to a behavior that stood out to me, and shared my insights there. Some may think it helpful, some disagree. That's fine too. This is mafia, this is what we do.

Tell you what, I've worked the numbers and scenarios pretty hard and I think that if we are correct in assuming 3 scum, we should win without too much trouble. We could mass claim, but I don't think that'd help too much, given what I think the setup looks like.

What do you think about any/all of the above?

- Bauss -

[My Milked Eek]

/facepalm

[don_johnson]

wow. eek, if heyato hadn't disappeared I'd think you were onto something.

TV: please vote heyato. withholding your vote serves no purpose.

[hayatoBL]

I'm not asking for a POE

Again, who is scum according to you? I want your reads

now

and not after a reread that isn't going to happen.

Patience is key. Btw I DID some reread.

TV – SoS fakeclaim makes the most sense, if TV is their scum-partner.

Jon – IMO, Jon’s thought process doesn’t matches town.

Will elaborate on these two right now.

Flameaxe – He’s in my lynchpool because there is no reason for me to think he’s town. Getting question answered from him feels like pulling a tooth out. He keeps saying I’m not answering questions and coasting. Yet, I think he’s the one who’s doing that. Though, would like to lynch either Jon or TV.

[hayatoBL]

@Jon

Listen.

The scum-motivation behind defending another scum is obvious. There’s no reason to argue about that. I’ve revisited the post where I defended SoS. I assume this is the post, which made you scum-read me. Am I right?

I can't think of any motivation for scum-SoS to postpone from getting lynched. Scum-SoS could have fake-claimed gunsmith or cop and asked Ice (if he's town) to protect them at night. Instead they crumbed Miller and soft-claimed IC/vig. Seems too silly to be GiF. I'm pretty confident, SoS is town.

Though, I want to see Mac's post first to confirm it.

That's why, while we wait for Mac's post, we should decide on an alternate lynch-candidate, just in case. I say we go with TV because biggest wagon. My preferences are still RC, Flameaxe and Jon in that order. And I won't be missing Aegor either. We should think about this. It's going to be messy, if we decide on it too late. I'll be around tomorrow and hammer if needed.

Yes. I defended SoS. But read the bolded part. That part should indicate to you that it was a conditional defence. I was convinced at that time of SoS’s innocence, but I was pretty much willing to hammer SoS if no news from the Mod came about SoS’s claim.

If that was scum-Me trying to derail that SoS wagon, what was my plan after that? Was I hoping for some miracle to happen? That suddenly Mac will post and confirm SoS’s innocence knowing full well it won’t happen? Come on….think.

About Aegor:

@MME
Aegor is town. I'll tell you why later. We’re not lynching him today.

So, if this is me trying to defend Aegor, what do I do next? Claim cop and fake an innocent result on Aegor? Come on….

Although, this does not prove I’m town, but it shattered your reasoning for thinking I’m scum.

Two suggestions: 1) Vote for someone else. 2) Restructure your case and keep that vote on me.

[hayatoBL]

My Jon case.

My problem with you is, you seem to not think things thoroughly, when you put your vote. You don’t consider alternate theories, which only scum does.

ICE twisted MME’s words => you voted him

SoS claimed day-vig => you called it BS, and told people to just lynch them.

I defended both scum => you voted me


You never consider the alternative.

Maybe ICE misunderstood MME? Was it a good strategy for scum-ICE to twist words, knowing full well that MME can retaliate and point out that he was twisting his words?

Maybe SoS was really the vig?

You wanted your vote somewhere. You saw you could give an excuse for your vote. So you put it there.

VOTE: don_johnson

About scum-You couldn’t have hard-bussed both scum-partners. How does bussing Aegor considered hard after clearly there was a guilty-investigation result?

[hayatoBL]

@Tunnel

I have to admit. That’s a strong case. I’m also a fan of cases which involves behavioural pattern, so I kinda like it. I just don’t like how it’s going against me.

Rebuttals:

1) I’m town. (Obviously I’m going to say that) herp-dee-derp? Wtf?

2) You call it a classic behaviour. According to whom(or who) exactly? To you? Do you have samples of data to allow yourself to call it a classic behaviour?

3) Let’s say that it’s a classic behaviour. It doesn’t mean that it’s 100% accurate. So where does this inaccuracy comes from?

From people who behave differently.

Scum-Me behaves very differently from those behaviour you described. Scum-Me goes with the flow. Scum-Me doesn’t look at what his other scum-partner is doing, and then does the opposite.

Proof:
My previous game was a scum-game. In the QT, I did a bit of coaching. Here are one of my post. My scum partner asked me, who we should try to lynch the next day. This was my answer:

I think it's better if those thoughts come from you, to avoid coming out tomorrow with the same opinions. Not that I'm saying it would be suspicious if we had the same opinions. If during the game, you share the same opinion, don't hesitate to express it. Just put yourself in town shoes and do what a normal town would do. If I'm playing suspicious, point it out. If I look town, say I'm town.

That was Newbie 1449 – Return of the Van. We scum, were victorious. We had a perfect win. Which means, it’s very likely that if I’m scum right now, I’m going to follow the same tactics.

In that game, both me and my scum-partner weren’t on the lynch-wagon on D1. Both of us were on the lynch-wagon on D2 and D3, without planning to do so. We unconsciously sticked together at each Day.

As scum, I make sure to have zero planning (besides choices of NK of course). And I’m not effected by what my scum-partner do. Thus, if in the future I did follow that pattern you describe, then it is happening by chance, not by choice.

This post proves, as scum I don’t follow any voting patterns, thus rendering your argument useless.

I suggest, that you lobby harder. Read my case on Jon and tell me what you think.

If you’re town and you still trust your case and believe that I’m scum, why not try finding something else, which might point to me being scum? There should be some, if I’m scum, unless you think I’m super good at playing scum.

[hayatoBL]

My TV case.

SoS fake claim is still bothering me. Why would scum crumb as miller, then claim as vig, when they can easily claim cop, with an attempt to out the real-cop? Why make a claim, where town could wait for confirmation from Mod and Flameaxe and lynch SoS anyway?

They might as well claim VT. Why the attempt to

postpone

the lynch instead of doing something

beneficial for their faction

?

Let say SoS claims cop. People will start unvoting them and vote TV, the second biggest wagon. (Other wagons at that time was Molla’s and RC’s). So, here are the benefits of claiming cop.

1) SoS survives D1.
2) Town-TV gets killed.
3) Real-cop gets outed the next Day.

Instead of doing that, SoS did a Day-vig claim.

Let’s say TV is scum. If SoS claims cop, everyone unvote SoS, and vote scum-TV and he gets lynched. The next Day real-cop out himself. SoS gets lynched. Two scum lynched, with Aegor following shortly after.

So, from preventing that from happening, SoS claimed something that won’t cause people to unvote them.

Thus, I think SoS’ fakeclaim makes the most sense if TV is a member of their alignment.

To your “There could be a godfather, thus it’s not logical for Aegor and SoS to vote you, since you would be the godfather” defence, you’re ignoring the possibility of 3 goons + 1 traitor setup. Or you already think that is the case, and tried to take advantage of other people’s ignorance?

[hayatoBL]

(Suspicious of Aegor on D1) + (MME gets a guilty result on Aegor) + (believes in MME’s claim) = (genuinely not at all sure about Aegor’s flip)??

I thought it would have been obvious that, after SOS's flip and my decision to start Day 2 voting for MME rather than Aegor, my suspicion of Aegor from Day 1 was not necessarily as strong as it was then. My recollection of my thought process from the time was that I remembered MME's behaviour around the time of the SOS lynch as being possibly suggestive of a buddy (I'd have to go and look back to get a clearer picture, tbh), so that was where I started, rather than Aegor.

It wasn’t obvious and it can’t be unless it’s there on the thread, black on white. An increased suspicion towards someone else does not mean a decrease of suspicion towards your prior suspect. You actually wanted to vote for Aegor on D1:

Ah crap, can we lynch Aegor instead?

And the conversation after seems like you have something on Aegor. Ref: 697 - 703

With my suspicion of Aegor less firm than Day 1 -

and my not having a particular problem with his claim

, in so much as I thought I could buy that he might not have claimed on gamestart as a miller - it's not unreasonable for me to worry that both could have been telling the truth.

His claim shouldn’t increase or decrease your suspicion towards him. What? Is a miller-claim out of the ordinary for scum to make?

What I'm saying is, your suspicions towards Aegor shouldn't have decrease so much for you to suddenly to be unsure about his allignment after that investigation-result comes out. I’ll post it again:

I'm genuinely not at all sure which way this flip will go but, for what it's worth, I believe MME is what he says he is.

It felt like you were trying to emphasize that you don’t know how Aegor would flip. Because only town don’t know.

[hayatoBL]

I think frog and Molla are town. As to CDB, I'm not sure where to put him yet. Which makes the rest of the players my lynch pool(TV,jon,flameaxe). Need to do more reads to narrow down that pool. Will give update...

If you don't know where to put me, why wouldn't I be hypothetically in your lynch pool? You clearly don't expect there to be as many as three scum left, hence your desire to narrow down, so if you're uncertain about me, why wouldn't I be a possibility?

You are correct. I’ve unconsciously put you in an unknown category. That reflects my reluctance to put you in my lynch pool because of my town-read on you on D1. You are in my lynch pool right now, though. Hypothetically....

[hayatoBL]

Actually, after writing all that, I’m getting excited to know TV’s flip. Jon could just be a lazy player. Please give me some better reads for me to figure you out, jon. And I want some response from CDB.

UNVOTE: don_johnson

VOTE: TunnelVision