Newbie 1466: ICECREAM! (Game Over)

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Post Post #575 (ISO) » Tue Jan 28, 2014 9:03 am

Post by Bert »

In post 574, Thor665 wrote:I don't think there is evidence to suggest I haven't. Why, what info do you think I overlooked?
OK, I see your point about bullsmurf (never heard that word before, but I guess it just means BS).

Why do I make sense as Surye's partner? Why would Mindgamer/Hua or Von Flare make secondary sense should I flip town?

I haven't found any associations you've made or explanations as to scumpartner pairings. Am I right about that?
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Post Post #576 (ISO) » Tue Jan 28, 2014 9:18 am

Post by Thor665 »

I never said I had made those associations either.
I just asked you about the ones I overlooked. Are there any?
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Post Post #577 (ISO) » Tue Jan 28, 2014 9:21 am

Post by Bert »

Why are you asking me? You want me to give them to you? I can try, I guess...
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Post Post #578 (ISO) » Tue Jan 28, 2014 9:54 am

Post by Thor665 »

I am asking you because you're complaining that I'm not doing it - and I'm asking you what evidence I overlooked.
If your answer is "I dunno if there even is evidence, because I haven't looked yet" then what in the world are you doing complaining that I'm not looking for something that a) may not exist and b) you haven't looked for either?
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Post Post #579 (ISO) » Tue Jan 28, 2014 9:57 am

Post by Bert »

I already outlined what I thought were associations, by the way Awesomeusername and Vonflare talked about an arbitrary scumpool of <Ulysses, ___, and Surye> and still picked the one NOT named Surye for some reason that I don't even understand.

Maybe I'm not skilled enough to understand what associations really are, or what I post doesn't make sense to you?

There HAS to be associations that you can look for, being an IC and experienced AND considered on top of that a strong player. Yet you're not looking for them and are asking me "tell me what I have overlooked"
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Post Post #580 (ISO) » Tue Jan 28, 2014 12:05 pm

Post by awesomeusername »

Okay, so I went back and ISO'ed all the living players plus Surye.

Interactions with Surye


Salmon - Specifically expressed a gut scum read on Surye Day 1, and stated he would like a Surye wagon, but never voted him. Got a null in Surye's read list () when most people were town reading Salmon, so that seems to make the scum team unlikely. Salmon immediately got on the Surye wagon Day 2. Overall, I don't think it's a very likely scum team, more because of Surye's read on Salmon than Salmon's read on Surye. This association read is weaker than all the others though.

vonflare - Scum read Surye on Day 1, but focused on Karlos. On Day 2, he initially voted Surye, putting him at L-1, but turned on Thor and got off the wagon. Surye gives vonflare a null read in . I think this scum team is quite possible; they were on the same wagon Day 1.

Mindgamer/hua - The slot has expressed literally no thoughts on Surye. Surye puts hua as leaning scum in his reads post, and seems to think hua is pretty scummy in a couple of other places, too, but never acts until day 2. In Day 2, pretty much all Surye did was push hua. The accusation was made that scum intended for hua to be lynched Day 2, but Surye could've rolled with that to clear his partner. Overall though, the scum team seems unlikely to me, though certainly possible.

Ulysses/Bert - Ulysses also said literally nothing about Surye, even on Day 2. Surye scum-read Ulysses in , but never mentioned this read again. What's interesting is Bert's hammer. We've agreed it's not a town tell, as it was pretty obvious Surye was dead at that point. Bert's lack of caution actually strikes me as a little anti-town. This seems like a fairly likely scum team.

Thor - Though he actually gave Surye a slight town read early on, and never really talked about him Day 1, he abruptly led the Day 2 lynch. Surye called Thor town in his read list. Thor does bus pretty hard when he's scum. But since it wouldn't have been very weird at all for Thor to not push Surye, I think this scum team is unlikely.

Independent reads


Salmon - I don't like Salmon's play and I don't know why you all are town reading him. Reading his ISO, he's contributed so little to scum hunting and such. I realize he "lacks motivation" and stuff but that's pretty easy to say. Without the Surye flip I actually think Salmon's the scummiest.

vonflare - Some of his posts from really early on (, , ) seem very town-like to me. I don't like his play a whole lot, especially some of those ridiculous arguments against Karlos, but overall he seems quite town-motivated.

Mindgamer/hua - My head is still spinning from the Thor v. hua debate. Looking back, my gut reaction is that the arguments were so subtle and nitpicky in places that neither side was probably that strong. The Karlos hammer was weird; it tells me hua really didn't want to die. She was pretty frustrated throughout the debate, which seems a little more town than scum to me. Call it a small town read, but more because of the interactions with Surye than anything else. I want to hear from Mindgamer soon.

Ulysses/Bert - Reading Ulysses' ISO, he wasn't as bad as I remembered. Still though, I didn't like his voting patterns, and he was pretty lurky. Besides the eager hammer, Bert seems more town to me. I find going on gut reads annoying but it's not a tell. Given that Bert has kind of made himself the center of attention, I find the slot overall leaning town.

Thor - Thor is the leader of the game, and as such he would be in excellent position as scum. In fact, I'd advocate any investigative role investigating Thor tonight (if tonight happens) since he'd be extremely useful as confirmed town. He's done a lot of pro-town things, instigating discussion, leading the lynch on Surye, and scumhunting. I don't like how yesterday he seemed to be trying to ride town cred, especially since I thought he was giving himself more than he deserved. Nonetheless, his play seems town.

---------

My problem right now is that the players I think would work best as Surye's partner are players I think are pretty pro-town otherwise. I think for now I'll VOTE: SalmonellaDreams, but I'd also be willing to lynch vonflare or Bert.

@Bert: Can you post your reasoning behind your reads please? This quibbling with Thor is going nowhere.

@Thor: Let me put it this way. If you didn't have any other reads, would you be scum-reading Bert?

I do kind of see your point, but I'd still like a reason beyond process of elimination.
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Post Post #581 (ISO) » Tue Jan 28, 2014 2:53 pm

Post by SalmonellaDreams »

I believe in hua scum more than I do in Bert scum.

VOTE: Mindgamer

Thor, why does logic seem to suggest Mindgamer's slot is town?
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Post Post #582 (ISO) » Tue Jan 28, 2014 5:48 pm

Post by Bert »

Being brutally honest tonight - brain is fried, plus head feels like pulp, can't think clearly. I will answer you guys's questions in a terri-Bert way tomorrow.
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Post Post #583 (ISO) » Tue Jan 28, 2014 6:22 pm

Post by Thor665 »

In post 580, awesomeusername wrote:@Thor: Let me put it this way. If you didn't have any other reads, would you be scum-reading Bert?
I don't even know how to answer that. If I had no reads but my read on Bert I wouldn't be pressing on him because I'd be desperate to get other reads. I feel like you're asking 'ignoring all the evidence you have, what does your evidence say about Bert'... :neutral: I dunno.

But, basically, if you look at the votes, I'm pretty sure either Bert is scum or you are, and I think you're probably town. If I'm wrong about Bert we'll revisit this.

Your Salmonella vote is bad. He is town, don't waste time, just sheep me on that one. Even you were aware he doesn't make sense as a Surye partner - it doesn't matter that you find him interdependently scummy at that stage, not unless you're at a loss for other suspects, and you aren't.
In post 581, SalmonellaDreams wrote:Thor, why does logic seem to suggest Mindgamer's slot is town?
Scum didn't try to kill me Night 1.
I was hard focused on Hua.
Surye entered the game day wanting to lynch Hua to some degree.

Odds suggest that means Hua was town. I don't think it's a 100% clear, and like I've said - I dislike pretty much everything the slot has done, but for now I'm content to leave it as a town lean.
In post 582, Bert wrote:Being brutally honest tonight - brain is fried, plus head feels like pulp, can't think clearly. I will answer you guys's questions in a terri-Bert way tomorrow.
Third time is the charm!
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Post Post #584 (ISO) » Tue Jan 28, 2014 6:23 pm

Post by Thor665 »

@Mod - can you confirm that Mindgamer has picked up a prod or is due to be replaced, or whatnot? That slot is ruining my buzz.
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Post Post #585 (ISO) » Tue Jan 28, 2014 7:17 pm

Post by GuyInFreezer »

In post 584, Thor665 wrote:
@Mod - can you confirm that Mindgamer has picked up a prod or is due to be replaced, or whatnot? That slot is ruining my buzz.
He has less than 24 hours to post or he will be replaced.
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Post Post #586 (ISO) » Wed Jan 29, 2014 3:27 am

Post by vonflare »

@awesomeusername: you asked for my opinion, here is is:

AUN looks completely town to me. I would, personally, not vote for him as the game stands, and a lot of other players are saying similar.

Mindgamer/Hua: Hua looked a little town-ish for a while at the beginning, mostly because he was making an effort to scumhunt, but no read from me, because Mindgamer is yet to post.

Useles/Bert: Random usleless comments, garbage fluff, garnished with random filler. Mix thoroughly, add Thor's vote, let simmer, and lynch when cool.

Thor: You are not seeing what we are asking you. listen carefully:
Basically, your whole argument against Surye was that Hua was town.
This means that you think (or thought) that Surye and Hua/Mindgamer must have opposite alignments.
Yet you say that Hua is scum. But you also say that Surye is scummier.
then, Surye flips scum.
You proceed to say that Hua is scum.
But you also say that Bert is scummier.
This looks to me like day 2 and day 3, you say "Hua is scum, but [someone_else] is scummier."
Now, if there were three scums, I would go ahead and say that Hua/mindgamer and Thor were the remaining. bu as there is 1 left, neither of these people seem to be scum-like, because the connection rests between all 3 of them.

Salmon: Kind of lurky, not really contributing a lot, staying in the shadows. leaning scum, but far from certain.

So to me, Bert seems the scummiest so far.

VOTE: Bert
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Post Post #587 (ISO) » Wed Jan 29, 2014 3:40 am

Post by vonflare »

so scummiest to towniest:
BERT
SALMON
THOR
HUA
AUN
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Post Post #588 (ISO) » Wed Jan 29, 2014 5:04 am

Post by Thor665 »

In post 586, vonflare wrote:Thor: You are not seeing what we are asking you. listen carefully:
1. Basically, your whole argument against Surye was that Hua was town.
2. This means that you think (or thought) that Surye and Hua/Mindgamer must have opposite alignments.
3. Yet you say that Hua is scum. But you also say that Surye is scummier.
4. then, Surye flips scum.
5. You proceed to say that Hua is scum.
6. But you also say that Bert is scummier.
7. This looks to me like day 2 and day 3, you say "Hua is scum, but [someone_else] is scummier."
8. Now, if there were three scums, I would go ahead and say that Hua/mindgamer and Thor were the remaining. bu as there is 1 left, neither of these people seem to be scum-like, because the connection rests between all 3 of them.
1. No, it was never this. I even had this discussion with Surye yesterday and he made the same statement and I showed it to be false at that point.
2. No, I never thought this, and no, it doesn't require me to.
3. Yes.
4. Yes.
5. Yes. (Well...scum*my* which is a bit different, but yes)
6. Yes.
7. Yes, I most assuredly did this.
8. ...so, basically none of this matters?

I don't get your point, though you are provably wrong on a couple of your beliefs.
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Post Post #589 (ISO) » Wed Jan 29, 2014 5:08 am

Post by vonflare »

sigh
.

ok then.

I'm tired of arguing this point.
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Post Post #590 (ISO) » Wed Jan 29, 2014 5:53 am

Post by GuyInFreezer »

Mindgamer will be replaced.
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Post Post #591 (ISO) » Wed Jan 29, 2014 6:46 am

Post by Thor665 »

In post 589, vonflare wrote:
sigh
.

ok then.

I'm tired of arguing this point.
I feel that's an awkward stance to take when my reply was 'you're provably wrong about this thing you think' and also 'I don't even understand what point you're trying to make'.
I guess you can type 'sigh' and walk away from it if you want - but if you are town and your goal is to understand me you re doing yourself and town a disservice.
If your goal is to express yourself clearly you are doing yourself a disservice.
And if your goal is to make me understand your point you are doing yourself a disservice.

So, as long as none of that matters to you, then, fine, no worries. And, really, if my questions appear so bone headed as to be not worth discussing...okay, fine, no worries. But if any of the above was part of your goal...then you're doing it wrong.
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Post Post #592 (ISO) » Wed Jan 29, 2014 6:46 am

Post by Thor665 »

In post 590, GuyInFreezer wrote:
Mindgamer will be replaced.
Thank gawd.
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Post Post #593 (ISO) » Wed Jan 29, 2014 8:28 am

Post by GuyInFreezer »

notscience replaces Mindgamer
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Post Post #594 (ISO) » Wed Jan 29, 2014 8:29 am

Post by notscience »

In post 592, Thor665 wrote:
In post 590, GuyInFreezer wrote:
Mindgamer will be replaced.
Thank gawd.
Bet you're rethinking that
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Post Post #595 (ISO) » Wed Jan 29, 2014 8:30 am

Post by Thor665 »

Wasn't aware I had an opinion about you as a player. So far you've managed a post - that still puts you in the lead over Mindgamer even if it was non game related.
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Post Post #596 (ISO) » Wed Jan 29, 2014 8:32 am

Post by notscience »

So, anything in particular you want my opinion on in my reread? I'll have a readslist when I'm done
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Post Post #597 (ISO) » Wed Jan 29, 2014 8:48 am

Post by awesomeusername »

@Thor: Okay, I'll sheep you on the Salmon unvote. I don't understand why everyone thinks Salmon is so town though, so could someone explain that?

As for the PoE thing, not having reads in a vacuum is fair enough I suppose. This discussion is getting us off track, anyway. Point is, there are stronger scum tells than PoE.

UNVOTE: SalmonellaDreams
VOTE: vonflare

I can't decide between vonflare or Bert, but since voting Bert would put him at L-1 and I don't want anyone hammering before notscience can truly weigh in, I'll go for vonflare.

@vonflare: Are you accusing Bert of not posting content? If so, I think you need to reread. Fluff is okay in my opinion as long as it's not everything he's posting.

@Salmon: I'd really appreciate some opinions from you (particularly about Bert and vonflare). Right now you look like you're just waiting out the confusion so you can wagon whoever we decide on, pretty confident it's not going to be you.

@notscience: Not that I can think of. Have you played with anyone here before?
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Post Post #598 (ISO) » Wed Jan 29, 2014 9:01 am

Post by notscience »

No I've never met salmonella bert or Thor before who are they
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Post Post #599 (ISO) » Wed Jan 29, 2014 9:01 am

Post by Thor665 »

In post 596, notscience wrote:So, anything in particular you want my opinion on in my reread? I'll have a readslist when I'm done
Well...basically everyone. Your slot was scummy Day 1, lurked out Day 2, got replaced, lurked more, and now we're in Day 3. Your slot is a filthy black hole that may need lynching simply due to lack of interactions, so the sooner I can see you take some firm stances on other players the happier I'd be.

I suppose if you want to leap straight into the discussion of the day - an opinion on Salmonella and Bert would be apropos.
But, frankly, you need to start providing content asap, because your predecessors decided they didn't like you.
In post 597, awesomeusername wrote:@Thor: Okay, I'll sheep you on the Salmon unvote. I don't understand why everyone thinks Salmon is so town though, so could someone explain that?
i would note, for the second time, that your own presented case on him does this as well as anything. You pointed out how he doesn't make a lot of sense with Surye as partners.
The last scum...he was Surye's partner ;) Ergo...
In post 597, awesomeusername wrote:Point is, there are stronger scum tells than PoE.
Some players here would agree with you, some would not. I, personally, think town tells are better and more useful than scumtells, and almost exclusively town hunt when dealing with tells. I would take pains to at least stress on you the idea that *your* method is simply *your* method - and because someone else uses a different method it does not mean the method is worse than yours.

...also, quite frankly, considering that I accurately pegged the alingments of 2/3 of the flipped players in this game - I'm not sure why you're questioning my method and suggesting it is weak. Clearly it works to some degree. :wink:
In post 597, awesomeusername wrote:I can't decide between vonflare or Bert,
Can you remind me again why you rule out Hua/Mindgamer/Notscience?

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