NY 172: Another Large Normal (GAME OVER)

[Nero Cain]

You have a scum read on me?

[TheWayItEnds]

Not especially.

But i wasn't fully onboard with your reasons for voting MR yesterday, so while I think there are reasons to put naked votes on PA today, I dont think you and I have the same ones.
The end result is a vote on PA, so w/e, but if that exact post had come from someone else I would have liked it more.

[Nero Cain]

What do you think of PA's reaction to the vote?

[Nero Cain]

What do you think of PA's reaction to the vote?

[TheWayItEnds]

Not great. I don't really know how you respond to a player who has previously explained his scum read on a slot with "you can be more persuasive than that" and a naked vote.

[Nero Cain]

I don't know either but the whole "you can be more persuasive than that" seems like taunting me and seems kinda lame. What did you think of Rogers/PA sans vote reaction?

[TheWayItEnds]

I thought he looked pretty town for most of the game. Essentially not the first 5 pages, and not his last 5 pages or so were good. His start and the pages before his exit were questionable.

[penguin_alien]

UNVOTE: aptil

Town claim is town. Also town reading ThAd and 4nxi3ty for seeing what I did yesterday. Mild town read on mastin2 for not trying to blend into a wagon.

Nero feels slightly town for pushing forward on his read. I'm actually thinking that I want to look at what happened after both leading wagons were claimed VT. Who tried to push the wagons toward potential unknown PRs.

As far as other analysis goes, I don't really have much insightful. Two wagons on known VTs, not much need for scum to stick their necks out. Day of travel means I've about hit the wall, but I'll see what I see when I look for momentum shifts after the claims tomorrow.

[Damon_Gant]

UNVOTE: aptil

Town claim is town.

Also town reading ThAd and 4nxi3ty for seeing what I did yesterday.

Mild town read on mastin2 for not trying to blend into a wagon.

Nero feels slightly town for pushing forward on his read. I'm actually thinking that I want to look at what happened after both leading wagons were claimed VT. Who tried to push the wagons toward potential unknown PRs.

As far as other analysis goes, I don't really have much insightful. Two wagons on known VTs, not much need for scum to stick their necks out. Day of travel means I've about hit the wall, but I'll see what I see when I look for momentum shifts after the claims tomorrow.

What do you mean by the bolded part?

And with regards to your post, how about sticking your neck on the line a bit with some scum reads rather than just trying to form a little group of buddies. In particular I'm always suspicious of someone who calls the person tunnelling them town without very good reason.

[DeasVail]

Ugh. sorry. Tomorrow.

Really sorry/

[ThAdmiral]

Is it that reasonable? I mean, would we start a counter-wagon on someone just because they did it too? That's just dumb, especially when you're not taking our reads in consideration. Would we start a CW on ThAd if we did not have a scum read on him? Well, I wouldn't. So to think that we'd start a CW on ThAd just because he had started one too, not taking into account our reads on him, is not reasonable at all. Add to that that he did knew we had scum reads on him, so it's not like he wasn't aware like you're suggesting.

Spoiler:

Snork and Snowstorm trade reads. Not terrible lists but I'm in both scum piles so I don't love them

that

much.

His reaction was just bad and the only purpose it had was to discredit our votes on him based on something he "assumed" for no logical reason.

Vote: ThAdmiral

Ok I'm going to take you back to how things were going down at that time. This is going to be fairly in depth and since the main purpose is to clear all this up for you I'm going to spoiler it. Other people are welcome to read it if they want but I doubt they will find it too interesting.

Spoiler:

ok so we are back at page 58 and I've just tried to start a counterwagon from the main two wagons on aptil.

Not many people commented on the suggestion, however Deas vail said "maybe tomorrow" (post 1446) and yates suggested me voting luca instead (post 1461).

In post 1463 snork analyses the people on the various wagons, and at the end of the post says:

-- Also, ThAd trying to split the votes with his aptil "epiphany"...

Here snork clearly indicates he thinks I am scummy for creating a counterwagon, particularly one with express intention of splitting the votes.

Gant in 1471 also says:

Also, ThAd's vote on aptil is at best, really odd. I didn't like that.

Yates questions Gant about it in 1477:

Are you thinking Luca-ThAd scum team? talah-ThAd scum team? What? I have to double check but my impression of ThAd is that he'd bus his mother.

Gant replies and elaborates on his position:

Or maybe they're both town and ThAd would like to distance himself from both of their wagons? I can't quite pick apart what the motive was, but I just didn't get it from a town POV. At least when he was on 4nx it seemed like he was on some one-man crusade he did believe in. Moving his vote onto another dead wagon...I don't know, just something doesn't feel right. It feels tokenistic - something I'd attribute to scum rather than town.

Gant is showing how he feels I could be scum now because I started a counterwagon - not necessarily because a counterwagon is in itself scummy, but because my attempt felt tokenistic.

Snork adds in:

ThAd lynch would be good too, imo.

Which is where you come in with:

Let's do it.

Vote: ThAdmiral.

Now it's possible that I've misinterpreted your reason for voting me, but I don't think I misinterpreted snork's. He himself expressed suspicion due to me trying to form a counterwagon, and also responded to gant's argument that my attempted counterwagon made me look scummy. The timing of your vote lead me to believe that you were also jumping on for similar reasons. You say you weren't. Ok. But looking at the history and timing of everything can you still say that it is

illogical

for me to think what I did?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm still waiting for these supposed actual reasons btw.

And don't try and pretend you didn't use the negative sentiment surrounding me because of my proposed counterwagon in an attempt to get a wagon started on me. Otherwise why vote me right then and not any time earlier in the day?

You're waiting, since when? You never showed any interest in the reasons behind my read on you until now. Well, this approach is actually one of them. You just don't seem interested in getting reads on people. Like you say, you're just waiting, waiting for people to do something "scummy" that you can throw against them. Your posts just don't show a town mindset.

Honestly I saw myself on a number of scumlists but couldn't remember much, if any, reasons why. I generally don't respond to people unless they make a case against me because otherwise what am I responding to? I feel like I've responded to most questions that have been asked of me however.

I don't understand what you mean by me "waiting for people to do something "scummy" that I can throw against them". Can you point out where I've done this? The point is sort of baffling to me.

I did not vote you because of your attempted Aptil CW. I voted you because at that moment I wasn't happy with either of the main wagons and Snork had expressed that he'd like your lynch too. So I decided to give it a shot. I must say though that I do think your suspicion of Aptil is BS, so yeah I didn't like that you tried to start a counterwagon on him, but it wasn't the act in itself that made me vote you.

Ok, can you explain why my suspicion of aptil is bs? I don't think you've mentioned this before but I'd love you to explain your stance now.
And just to be clear you are saying that my attempt to start a counterwagon

did indeed

influence your decision to vote me? (although wasn't the sole/main reason you voted me?)

As for my other reasons to suspect you:

I don't like ThAdmiral. I didn't like the way he approached the bjc situation. His vote on him doesn't bother me as much as the fact that he seemed frustrated that bjc would get away with town reads, the only reason to be frustrated about that is if he's scum. IDk why town would express being so annoyed at bjc and the claim. His whole position on the matter doesn't make sense to me. Aside that there's nothing in his posts that make me lean town on him. Oh, also, I'm not thrilled about his reaction to the fake Vig. One second he was voting Z. the other he's kneeling before him praising the gambit. Too much.

^Here. Your approach makes no sense coming from town. You voted bjc for his scum claim, then you said it was a null tell, but you kept expressing frustration towards people town reading him. So if you were not voting him for the scum claim what were you voting him for? And if you really thought the scum claim was a null tell why did you only complain about the town reads and not the scum reads based on it?

Let me break down the bjc situation for you:
1) I voted bjc because I hate stupid scum-claim gambits like that. I did not vote him because I thought he was scum

at that point

. It was more to teach him a lesson etc.
2) People started defending bjc and attacking his attackers, and I found it odd because I didn't see why anyone could think he was town. I felt the scum-claim was a null-tell at best.

I most clearly state my position at the time here:

Do I think bjc was literally claiming scum? No, not really.
Do I hate it when people post shit like "I'm scum" and then act all defensive/surprised when people vote them? Yes.
Do I think he's town for his behaviour? Fuck no. I don't get why anyone would think so, he's null at best.

And also here, where I admit that I'm not necessarily voting bjc because I thought he was scum (to a question

you

asked me):

Do you actually suspect bjc? If so, why? The only reason I find for your vote on him is that you don't like that he claimed scum.

Yeah, that's pretty much why I'm voting him.

My stance on bjc changed somewhat when I took in to account his reaction to the people voting him. I explain my stance here:

bjc - the scum claim itself is null (but annoying). The fact that his scum reads are based solely off people who voted him, and the fact that he has only interacted with people who voted him/questioned him looks bad. leaning-scum.

Does this clear everything up? Given that I already answered a question

asked by you

about my stance on bjc far earlier in the game I hope and trust you will actually remember my response this time.

[ThAdmiral]

A game where she supposedly was cleared?? And you had no reason to believe at that time the cop was lying since he flipped town cop... so you voted Luca based on that game where she was a "cleared" player...

Yeah that doesnt hold up Rach. That is the shittiest excuse ever, not to mention why are you bothering with excusing your vote? Do you feel guilty about it?

VOTE: RachMarie

I actually agree with snork here, this definitely needs to be explained.

I used my 1-shot vig abilities to kill Talah . That is why i did not care about who it was at the end of the day because we were very close to the deadline and i had made up my mind to shoot the survivor if the person lynced out was town .

unvote

No reason not to believe him at this point.
If there are further multikills he's probably an sk and we'll deal with him if and when.

vote: rachmarie

[penguin_alien]

ThAd lynch would be good too, imo.

Let's do it.

Vote: ThAdmiral.

Eh, scum read. Feels quite half-assed. In conjunction with the part where reading through his ISO, the only real case he makes on ThAd is 675, and things like praising Zdenek's gambit are juxtaposed with not liking that ThAd is praising the Zdenek move. Then he's willing to ressurect this read when he also seems happy to lynch Luca or talah.

VOTE: SnowStorm

UNVOTE: aptil

Town claim is town.

Also town reading ThAd and 4nxi3ty for seeing what I did yesterday.

Mild town read on mastin2 for not trying to blend into a wagon.

Nero feels slightly town for pushing forward on his read. I'm actually thinking that I want to look at what happened after both leading wagons were claimed VT. Who tried to push the wagons toward potential unknown PRs.

As far as other analysis goes, I don't really have much insightful. Two wagons on known VTs, not much need for scum to stick their necks out. Day of travel means I've about hit the wall, but I'll see what I see when I look for momentum shifts after the claims tomorrow.

What do you mean by the bolded part?

And with regards to your post, how about sticking your neck on the line a bit with some scum reads rather than just trying to form a little group of buddies. In particular I'm always suspicious of someone who calls the person tunnelling them town without very good reason.

I mean by the bolded part that they were also trying to actively look beyond the easy wagons. I kind of get that aptil was playing to get off the vig shot and was planning to shoot any counter wagon to a town lynch, which explains the tone of his posts. It was still scummy play day one.

In my experience with town-Nero, he can get kind of fanatical about his scum reads when he's engaged in a game. I wanted to see how fervently he'd push his scum read on me. Answer: enough that I'm not worried about him today.

Scum-wise, I don't like SnowStorm's push on ThAd as discussed above. RachMarie does need to explain her thought process.

I thought he looked pretty town for most of the game. Essentially not the first 5 pages, and not his last 5 pages or so were good. His start and the pages before his exit were questionable.

Not especially.

But i wasn't fully onboard with your reasons for voting MR yesterday, so while I think there are reasons to put naked votes on PA today, I dont think you and I have the same ones.
The end result is a vote on PA, so w/e, but if that exact post had come from someone else I would have liked it more.

So what are your reasons? Since you weren't here to be onboard or not with Nero voting MR yesterday. Because this looks like you stirring the pot to me.

[AngryPidgeon]

That is not at all how I'm acting. In fact, you're asking me questions about my reads, and I'm answering in the context of my reread. How can you then say that I'm excessively talking about reevaluating when you're the one who keeps asking me about it?

Thats the point, you've just been saying that you need to and being all dramatic about it without actually doing anything? And somehow DV and Bipolar made it into your TOPTIER town reads and when I ask you about why, I get these OMGUSy posts from you in which you argue the exact nature of your re-evaluation instead of explaining where the damn Bipolar read came form:

Post-flip reads:
Town:
DeasVail
Aptil
BipolarChemist

Probably town:

Am I wrong in assuming this was supposed to be a STRONG READS list? You grouped Bipolar in with aptil who is ridiculously town for his claim right now.

Second, I never said he was a super strong townread. I even mentioned it yesterday when he posted that, that I liked the post and thought it made him town. I also never said it was based on talah or luca being town. I don't know if you are just not understanding what I'm saying if you are purposely trying to twist it to fit your agenda, but in either case, I'm not "refusing to talk" about it. That's all I've been doing.

Ok? Then your posted reads list was rather confusing. How strong of a read is it?

It's not a strong read. There aren't a million details I can point to be all like "LOOK HOW TOWNIE HE IS" cuz it's not there.

Can you point at 1 detail at least?

I don't really know how many times I can answer the same question - IT'S A GUT READ BASED ON HIS RETURNING POST. IT SOUNDED GOOD TO ME. I LIKED THE THOUGHT PROCESSES, I LIKED THE RESPONSES.

I mean.. what the fuck do you want? Why are you all of a sudden so hung up on BPC? If you think he's scum, fucking push him.

Im hung up on YOU for grouping BPC into a towntowntown list then getting upset when called out on it and never actually giving a good reason for him being there when I go back and reference the post in question.

Ugh Nero, are you right about this?

[AngryPidgeon]

Also town reading ThAd and 4nxi3ty for seeing what I did yesterday. Mild town read on mastin2 for not trying to blend into a wagon.

Really? Can you explain the Thad and Anxiety reads?

And this feels like a realllly weak reason to be townreading mastin. I could easily see mastin hard defending 2 town lynches as scum, why can't you?

[Snork]

No AP. I am getting frustrated with you because I've already answered the question and you just want to rush my process. Idgaf if you aren't satisfied with my reads. They make sense to me and if you're town, I hope they will eventually make sense to you. If you don't get the concept of how I group my reads, oh well. That's your problem, and not mine.

[AngryPidgeon]

Or maybe they're both town and ThAd would like to distance himself from both of their wagons? I can't quite pick apart what the motive was, but I just didn't get it from a town POV. At least when he was on 4nx it seemed like he was on some one-man crusade he did believe in. Moving his vote onto another dead wagon...I don't know, just something doesn't feel right. It feels tokenistic - something I'd attribute to scum rather than town.

In hindsight, this looks an awful lot like just assigning scum motivation to Thad's vote arbitrarily.

I actually kind of like Thad's last wall.
And TheWayItEnd's entry feels genuine? His stance on Rogers makes a lot of sense and his engagement with Nero felt townie a little.
PA slot is still town although her reads are wack.

UNVOTE: TheWayItEnds

[AngryPidgeon]

No AP. I am getting frustrated with you because I've already answered the question and you just want to rush my process. Idgaf if you aren't satisfied with my reads. They make sense to me and if you're town, I hope they will eventually make sense to you. If you don't get the concept of how I group my reads, oh well. That's your problem, and not mine.

No, you never really justified the BPC read at all other than gut. Sure, I'll give you that, I get a lot of gut reads. But when I do I TRY to figure out why I have them so I can at least justify them if nothing else and hopefully vet myself to a degree? Your whole process on BPC makes no sense to me right now and you getting prickly about me talking about it (and not responding to my post ABOUT his to even try and talk to me about him?) is just .

[Damon_Gant]

In hindsight, this looks an awful lot like just assigning scum motivation to Thad's vote arbitrarily.

Well if something does not have town motivation then one should presume and hunt for scum motivation, don't you think?

My stance on ThAd right now is confused - but I think that's partially because he has a tone that will always leave me feeling uneasy but I think ultimately I return to my old read of him leaning town. I agree with you AP about his recent wall, which I thought read excellently.

I'm really struggling in this game now and I'd like to vote Rach but I just can't in good conscience. The only problem I have with Rach is the hop onto Luca's wagon, which was not great, but would've been a lot worse I think if Luca had flipped scum. I get that people also don't like her post justifying that, but I honestly don't mind it. It was a much attacked post, so she tried to explain it, and I dont' feel the explanation is awful.

I'm in a very bad place with this game right now, and I think that can only mean that scum are hiding in amongst the players I've been presuming town. Literally my only real scumread right now is 4nx and I consider that to be an unacceptable situation. I am working very hard to resolve it.

[PeregrineV]

Back, and apparently 0 for 2 (Sorry Talah)

[AngryPidgeon]

Ya, Talah flipping town makes me mostly uninterested in lynching Rach right now.

[Snork]

Yeah I get it AP. And I'm lazy. I haven't done that yet. I'm only getting prickly at you rushing me and seemingly not understanding that's all there currently is to that read. I didn't really read your response to his return post in depth yet cuz I'm busy. That doesn't mean it's not gonna happen here in the next day or so. But the more you pester me, the more time I spend just responding to you rather than doing the rest of my ISOs and it's not like I have unlimited posting time.

[AngryPidgeon]

Ok

Gun to your head, top 3 scumreads right now?

[Snork]

RM thad .. and one of 4nx or... I kinda wanna say PA. Despite how much I was townreading MR, I really dont like her lack of analysis thus far. I've read some of her other games and like... her posts here seem busy but unproductive. Also i am liking nero more and more so i think he might be onto something there just not sure yet.

[Nero Cain]

?????????

What the hell do you like all the sudden?