NY 172: Another Large Normal (GAME OVER)

[Nero Cain]

like I absolutely do not want to lynch Nero/Rach/4nx/snow/twie (yes I changed my mind here)

I rather hold off on Matt/six/Gant and DV. I guess Snork too

So I have like 6 players which I wouldn't mind lynching

penguin_alien
AngryPidgeon
Yates
PeregrineV
mastin2
ThAdmiral

[TheWayItEnds]

Wheres egg on that list?

[Snork]

TWIE, Egg does not belong on any lynch list. Trust me.

penguin_alien
AngryPidgeon

not today

Yates

PeregrineV
mastin2
ThAdmiral

not today

So, not a bad list except for Yates which I crossed out. As far as alignment goes, I have no fucking clue on mastin, but I dunno. For, lynching her would be more utility than any real suspicion. I think you are tying PV and ThAd together without knowing the alignment of either, and it would probably be better to get more out of them before deciding a lynch.

[Snork]

EBWOP: for me*, lynching her would be... etc.

[TheWayItEnds]

He has a list of everyone in the game in sections of lynch and dont lynch. Egg is the only person in the game not on that list. I would just like to know where he goes.

[TheWayItEnds]

I would also like to know why I'm apparently the only person in the game who has a major problem with 2286.

[Snork]

Egg goes on the no lynch list.

[Nero Cain]

egg is on the hold off list

[SnowStorm]

PA is acting like scum aren't capable of faking rage or frustration and that it is obviously town because he had no reason to do it as scum either. Whenever ThAd's concerned he just takes things at face value. His interpretations fit what I think are ThAd's intentions, but I don't think they fit PA's thought process. What I liked about PA was involved, he asked questions and interacted with people, to me his posts demonstrate a level of involvement thinking and experience that does not match some of his opinions. Sometimes, like in this case, he just seems to be dumbing down to achieve the reads he wants. In this post he's basically saying. "Look at ThAd's rage and emotion. Emotion is town. ThAd's town!" It's just so simplistic and the way it's written is manipulative. "Do YOU see how town that is? YOu don't wanna vote that!".

First of all, its not like this is the only reason I've been calling Thad town. I've been pretty open about townreading Thad for most of this Day phase, this is just another reason to see it. Accusing me of dumbing down my reads has absolutely no base and is pretty terrible. Im not going to write a 5 paragraph essay about why Thad being recalcitrant makes him more likely to be town than scum and its not an amazing argument on its own anyhow. Combined with everything else I've seen today? Yes. ITs a reason to townread him, much like its a reason to townread Snork but you didn't give a shit when I called Snork town for very similar reasons.

I'm not saying this was your only reason, I'm saying it's a bad one and one which you didn't put any thought into. Ok, dumbing down might not be the most accurate expression, what I mean is that you're being selective on your reasons, which I guess I called dumbing down because I think you're ignoring good town/scum reasons in favor of worse ones, which don't make sense; it's as if you're ignoring the things that make sense in order to achieve the read you want to have. Like with your suspicion on me. You had a town read on me on day 1. Day 2 you vote me for no reason and later say my reactions gave you a reason to stay with your vote on me. You ignore all my previous posts to focus on a couple you didn't like for some unknown reason. "scum caught for the wrong reasons", that's straight up bullshit, the kind scum throw at townies when they want to jump on their wagon but can't find any logical reason to do so naturally. Then "you're desperate" and "OMGUS", more bullshit reasons that mean nothing. You just scum read me for no reason and showed no intention in understanding me or reassessing your read on me. And you're still voting me, for no reason! And now you're just gonna say "waitaminute, I have reason, I don' like these posts you made after I voted you". Which is the Bullshitiest thing ever!

So, I didn't want to deviate from the subject, but that's just how bad your suspicion of me is and it's an example of you ignoring the logical stuff in favor of whatever it is that fits your scum needs.

Moving on, what's Snork got to do with this? Did Snork post an overly dramatic wall in which he OMGUS's someone who suspects him and refuses to lynch anyone else?

Also, you flatout refusing to comment on TWIE is absurd and pretty hypocritical if you are going to accuse me of "dumbing down" my stance on Thadmiral. I find it hard to believe you have actually nothing to say about TWIE/Pmatt if you just ISOd them. I mean really? Did you or did you not just read all those posts and if so, you sure are dumbing down your read on the slot by refusing to say anything about them, I dont care if the conclusions is "Dunno, Null".

When did I refuse to comment on TWIE? I said I had a null read on him, even after ISO'ing him. What do you want me to say? "I kinda like this post, then I kinda don't. I kinda think he might be scum and town." Yeah, I don't think there's much to say about null reads, they're null for some reason! I don't see how I'm dumbing down by giving a null read on that slot, probably because I'm not, much like I'm not refusing to comment on him. Way to twist things, huh?

This just reads fake and overly dramatic, the whole post does. He's blowing something out of proportion to give himself a reason to vote Nero. The follow-up posts are even worse.

What is he blowing out of proportion? Nero has been tunneling on him for a while and, much like Snork who you seem to not give a shit about, Thad has been trying to get RM lynched to no end and reporting frustration about that. Why is Thatds frustration over done? Why is Snork's not? You argue with me about how emotion isn't town (and sort of imply its null) but then go off to paint Thad as scummy for this emotion because....? You flatout said:

PA is acting like scum aren't capable of faking rage or frustration

which is to say that rage/frustration is often genuine and town in the first place.

He's blowing his reasons to suspect Nero out of proportion. They're not something that could logically warrant his attitude of refusing to lynch anyone but Nero. They're not the epiphany he's playing it out to be. It is dramatically blown out of proportion.
Again, wtf does Snork have do do with this? Why do you think I should have the same opinions about ThAd's and Snork's behavior when they're two completely different players, whom I have completely different reads on?
I don't think rage/frustration/emotion are town tells (well, it depends on the player), but they're usually generally seen as town tells, because it is often genuine. In ThAd's case, I don't think his frustration is a scum tell because I don't think he had any good reasons to be frustrated and I think his acts of frustration are a mean to get town cred to make use of the general belief that emotion is town. Through his frustration he's also giving himself excuses to tunnel people and do nothing else. - Something I don't see Snork doing. - So yeah, I don't see how that comes from town.

He's assuming an anti-town position by being stubborn

Once again, Thad is not the only person to do that in this game, so your push here is selective scumhunting.

Is it? Who else is refusing to vote anyone but one player who's generally town read? I must have ignored them when I decided to selectively scum-hunt ThAd.

He's basically calling us all dumb because we can't see how town he is and how scum Nero is.

Yes and? Why is that scum motivated exactly, this is something people who are upset are likely to say. I know I can do this as both alignments although would be more likely to get indignant and pissed and call people idiots so I can mock them later as town.

It's an appeal and a bad one. He's not insulting us because he's frustrated with us. He's insulting us as a way to make us side with him. I don't like it and I don't like the way he does it. It doesn't give me any town feelings.

This is just bad. So overly dramatic and so manipulative.

Why is it manipulative? What is he doing that is manipulative? Getting Nero Cain lynched for shit reasons? fuck no, I dont think anyone could realistically expect Nero to be lynched Today..even remotely. IF you think hes specifically going for towncred here by fake raging...ok? You really have no base for thinking its that over it being legitimate (which scum rage often is anyways).

It's manipulative because he's appealing to our sense of possible future shame to not lynch him. I don't for a second believe he actually thought he could get Nero lynched. This whole thing is about him putting on a show to gain town cred. He's not trying to convince us to vote Nero, he's trying to convince us not to vote him.

[SnowStorm]

If you think ThAd is scum, then you'll need to show it. 2296 is ThAd spelling out reasons why he's calling bullshit on Nero's read. Since you disputed none of it, I take it you agree with his take on it?
Hint: "I don't like his tone/emotion/font color" is not the same as examining his argument.

WTF? How about you read my posts. I explain my scum read on ThAd and the reasons behind it in like every other post I make.

[ThAdmiral]

I don't think me being V/LA for a chunk of the beginning of the game constitutes lurking.

Eh it was more of a conglomeration of you, rach and bjc.

But umm...I'm not happening today so pick someone else.

In fact, tell me about projectmatt, PV, TWIE and Mastin.

and Yates

I'm at work now so I don't have time for lengthy iso's or anything but my general feelings are:
projectmatt - don't have a problem with him, generally understood where he is coming from, he can be town
pv - low quantity, decent points, standard pv. No strong read but I lean town.
twie - I was in two minds over pisskop yesterday and twie hasn't done anything that screams town today - I certainly wouldn't lose sleep if he was lynched. At the same time I think people are overplaying how scummy he's been. I think there are better options.
Mastin - I'm not going to lie, I like the town read on me. I've generally agreed with her reads but I would like more mastin-like levels of activity from her slot.
Yates - probably need to reread but I can't remember many strong stances, if any. A bit wishy-washy, leaning scum.

[ThAdmiral]

@ snork: It doesn't matter what I do you will read it as more "proof" that I'm scum.
I make a case against someone - "you're going after people that look scummy/low hanging fruit"
I blow up against nero - "you're faking it"

I bet you if I didn't make any cases I'd be scum for lurking.
I bet you if I was all chill with nero I'd be scum for "sounding too calm" or some bs

[ThAdmiral]

Sorry that was supposed to be

@ snowstorm:

[ThAdmiral]

If you think ThAd is scum, then you'll need to show it. 2296 is ThAd spelling out reasons why he's calling bullshit on Nero's read. Since you disputed none of it, I take it you agree with his take on it?
Hint: "I don't like his tone/emotion/font color" is not the same as examining his argument.

WTF? How about you read my posts. I explain my scum read on ThAd and the reasons behind it in like every other post I make.

Your reasons boil down to: "he's scum because I think he's scum and I don't agree with him"

[SnowStorm]

These seem to be the bulk of what I bothered looking for. I guess to sum it up, I don't see the same things you are in ThAd's posting. Having different opinions about who is scum is not scummy if they can explain the thought processes to reach them. Both of ThAd's cases do that.

You should have bothered to read more then. So you're saying that bad opinions that have a thought process behind them are not scummy? Thus can't come from scum? Thus you're saying scum don't think? You're not making any sense. ThAd had an opinion I didn't like, I found it scummy. He explained it, demonstrating his thought process, but just because there is one it doesn't mean I have to accept it or that I have to disregard it as a scum tell, after all, I think it's a thought process that fits scum more than it fits town.

See, nulls at this point are because
1. They have posts that seem town and that seem scum, and those posts move your reads in that direction. In which case, specifics help us understand YOU.
2. You're scum, and it's a hell of a lot easier to have nulls than to make up fake reads.
3. Some other good reason, which you can explain in detail, which helps us understand YOU.

There, we talked about your scumreads.
Since none of them are today's lynch, talk about Mastin, TheWayItEnds, and projectmatt.

4. I have not yet formed a strong opinion on them.

I don't care if you can't understand me because I have null reads. I have plenty of other reads and posts that you can use to understand me and judge me.
We didn't talk about my scum-reads, you commented on the brief explanations I wrote as a guide to my reads as if they were THE reasons for them and disregarded them completely. You're not dictating the lynch and I have already said I have no strong opinions on those three players or intention to lynch them today, so if you do want to talk with me, lets go back to talking about ThAd, AP and Damon.

Speaking of Damon. I found it pretty amusing that pisskop called him Demon_Gant. I only noticed that when I ISO'ed him a while ago.

[SnowStorm]

AP and PV's "look at Thad be angry. That's soooooooooo town." Which is IGNORING the fact that he's been ignoring all of the day phase and specifically parking/placing votes on wagons that won't happen.

How the hell is

THAT

town?! His rage thing reads fake and is like a big OMGUS. If Thad flips scumthen I'll prob want a PV/AP lynch. Might even go for Yates who was all like "vote parking is scummy" but ignores the fuck out of Thad sitting on Rach all day...

^this, with it I agree.

If anyone has a problem with this lynch, explain why, because I haven't seen a single good reason to believe that ThAd is town.

Everything about him is ridiculously town, even if not sheeping-town. Look at his posts from his perspective. They're not calculated. They're not artificial. They're not precise. These are all traits of a scum ThAd. They're impulsive. Rash. Emotional. Argumentive rather than manipulative. He's not trying to push an agenda; he's frustrated about the game. His posting looks genuine, like he's trying to figure out the game.

Like, I'm just about as disjointed from the game as can be, yet I can tell all of this basically instantly.

I disagree, but I'd like it if you could point out a previous game where he showed those traits as scum.

I dont see how Snow is pulling "Thad is being manipulative" out of this. There is really no direct point to Thad doing this as scum, unless you want to argue hes just trying to look town by doing something townie. But making that distinction is gonna take more backing than "its overdone" cause saying Thad is being manipulative is... well...manipulative.

That manipulative bit was a really minor point and you're talking about it as if it was a main one. It's another example of your dumbing down, since you're ignoring all the other points I've raised against ThAd and focusing on the least important one, which only applied to his appeal. You also show that you do understand that I think ThAd is playing to get town-cred and not to catch scum, but you couldn't get that from the manipulative bit so why is that the thing you mention? Yeah, dumbing down.

@ snork: It doesn't matter what I do you will read it as more "proof" that I'm scum.
I make a case against someone - "you're going after people that look scummy/low hanging fruit"
I blow up against nero - "you're faking it"

I bet you if I didn't make any cases I'd be scum for lurking.
I bet you if I was all chill with nero I'd be scum for "sounding too calm" or some bs

It's not just a matter of what you are doing, it's also HOW you are doing it.

Your reasons boil down to: "he's scum because I think he's scum and I don't agree with him"

When you over-simplify things like that, all reasons do boil down to that, bar he ones that involve scum-slips, partner analysis or claims.

[Egg]

Unvote, Vote Penguin

Can we really make this happen?

I'll post for real tomorrow if I can.

[Nero Cain]

Egg, I want your full case on PA next time you post.

[penguin_alien]

Eh, PA isn't exactly a townread for me. Her recent posting has felt pretty uninspired.

Gee, almost like I was on V/LA for a reason. If you don't mean my most recent posting by recent posting, do elaborate. Otherwise, the last three days weren't very conducive to game posting for reasons.

Current thoughts on players:

Town reads, will be annoyed if any are lynched today: Snork, Egg, Nero Cain, SiX, PeregrineV, Damon_Gant, 4nxi3ty

Town leans, not endorsing lynching them: Yates, RachMarie, ThAdmiral

Not reading as town (and kind of bummed about that): AngryPidgeon, DeasVail

Scum leans, wouldn't mind seeing them lynched: projectmatt, TheWayItEnds

Scum reads, would happily lynch: SnowStorm, mastin2

Unvote, Vote Penguin

Can we really make this happen?

I'll post for real tomorrow if I can.

You'll have a better shot at it if you bother to make a case. (P-edit: what Nero Cain said, since he's feeling more sociable than I am)

If mastin's scum, I'd be very leery of AP. Looking at the bottom four names, I'd almost rather lynch mastin or projectmatt here, maybe projectmatt. His town reads felt perfunctory, and he didn't engage with my attempt at discussion about SnowStorm.

VOTE: projectmatt

[DeasVail]

Wow, thank god you are paranoid of me. Like I really could not understand why you were seemingly writing me off as town all game.

Why would it be so odd for mastin to read you as town if you are?

I liked Nero's reason for voting ThAd, but I'm still hesitant to lynch there.

Snork, I don't see 2080 as being that incredibly town.

I have a townread on PV.

Regarding the current wagons/suspicions, I'm not going to support lynches on Nero, PMatt or PA without some heavy swaying. SnowStorm I could compromise on, but he's certainly not a preferred lynch right now. I'd probably go with ThAd over Snow, but I wouldn't make a decision between those two without going over ISOs again first.
TWIE and AP are my favoured options right now. I don't know how to reconcile the fact that they're attacking each other, but I think they're each individually scummy, so one of them lynched would be real nice.

~~

With the TWIE slot, I'm going to focus on TWIE himself, as I had mixed feelings about pisskop and it's only since TWIE's appearance that my read there has solidified.

The first post that concerns me is 1977. I think it's really easy to see from Yates' post that he may not necessarily mean that every player second on a wagon is scum, but TWIE pretends that that is what Yates is saying (without even asking for clarification) and makes a huge deal out of it while discrediting Yates in the process. Also, in this post it's really unclear what TWIE actually thinks of Yates. The mocking tone of both the first line and 'GG town. Yates just broke this game wide open.' make it sound like he thinks Yates is town, but then there's the weird vote thing? I feel like the post as a whole shows that TWIE cares too much about the accusation in a way that is completely unrelated to his read of Yates. I believe this is scummy.

As I've alluded to before, a lot of the sarcasm in 2117 feels to me like what scum would fake rather than what town would naturally say. The line, 'looks like you got me,' is probably the most significant example.

So this is the way it must end for TheWayItEnds... With rope!

[Damon_Gant]

PeregrineV has done a lot to further his town credentials since I last posted I think. Not sure why people are suspecting him. I have basically no understanding of the case on penguin_alien. Projectmatt I can understand more with his horribly non-commital posting, someone said something about "not making enemies", and that's pretty much what I think. However:

Unvote: SnowStorm
Vote: TheWayItEnds

This is the wagon I like. I think Peregrine did a lot to advance this case. I always felt uncomfortable with pisskop but I couldn't quite place why. With TWIE's play being scummy in my opinion, it has definitely cleared up my feeling about this slot.

[SnowStorm]

PeregrineV has done a lot to further his town credentials since I last posted I think. Not sure why people are suspecting him. I have basically no understanding of the case on penguin_alien. Projectmatt I can understand more with his horribly non-commital posting, someone said something about "not making enemies", and that's pretty much what I think. However:

Unvote: SnowStorm
Vote: TheWayItEnds

This is the wagon I like. I think Peregrine did a lot to advance this case. I always felt uncomfortable with pisskop but I couldn't quite place why. With TWIE's play being scummy in my opinion, it has definitely cleared up my feeling about this slot.

What did Peregrine do to advance the case on Way? I'm not seeing it.

[Egg]

Pere, I agree that if anyone has a null red on Mastin they should say why. I can't see the kind of null where they just can't pull any info out of his posts. What I could see is someone wavering in their read.

Theway, what specifically are you even talking about in that post I made? The part where I know Rach to be town?

Nero, when I replaced in I looked over the vote counts and picked three names that I thought were positioned the worst on major wagons. Kind of an unofficial VCA kind of deal. Then I guaged their responses to my calling them scum for non random reasons. I can't call any of those responses town responses. I seriously doubt that I came in here and successfully named three scum, but I can't figure out who I'm wrong about. Also, a penguin lynch beats a thewayitends lynch because theway obvtowned in the post I quoted earlier and a few others. Honestly though, I'd prefer lynches on Deas, projectmatt, or Mastin because I've seen more from them that points to scum since I came in (see my ISO for more info).

[Nero Cain]

I AM growing increasingly wary of DV.....

[SiX]

I've read from Page 70 back to page 89, the last 8 pages I've just rushed through before digging in the past.

There have been a couple of things bugging me.

ThAdmiral

, his vote on Aptil is obviously confusing to me. Regardless if he read him as Scum or not, him leading the bandwagon with his arguements seemed oddish to me.
Yes I'm surprised that he today stands alone on his fight against Nero Cain and some others(?).

RachMarie

, I don't like the amount of randomness that I've rad in her posts and her ways in defending herself at times.

Nero Cain

, I don't like how he comes playing the white knight with RachMarie. No offense meant here but RM seems like a player the mafias could consider trying to buddy.

AngryPidgeon

, I don't like at all, actually if I were to vote someone it would be you.
Checking Day 1, you were leading the band of 7 against Talah, someone Aptil apparently wasted my bullet on.
What I mean her, jumping as the last vote on an obvious town from scum-sight would be a bad play, instead Talah would have been a solid ground.
I also don't like your white knighting on Nero Cain (Someone I suspect as mafia), 4nxi3ty (someone I also suspect as mafia) and holds a suspicion which might actually go through late game against Aptil (me), thought it may also be seen from town side.

4nxi3ty

, I don't like the reasons you're trying to use to lynch players, Eg Aptil. How you lurk around to only turn up once in a while.

SnowStorm

, I don't like your vote which came without an elaboration, just an "I agree!"

Snork

, The enthusiasm seems townish to me, yet I'm questioning some things at time. You seem a little too naive with your beliefs, eg as soon as a claim comes you're supporting it throughout like you wouldn't dare to lead a bandwagon on someone claiming, instead it's better to 'buddy attempt' (Eg Aptil's claim) though the condition might be like AngryPidgeon explained.

I'm really up for lynching Angrypidgeon here.
Based on Angrypidgeon's flip, ThAdmiral and 4nxi3ty might be worth looking into.
Based on ThAdmiral's flip, Nero Cain might be worth looking into.

Some ATM thoughts of mine.

VOTE: