Mini 1556: Greetings Without Spain (GAME OVER FAREWELL)

[Kthxbye]

Back home. Expect content post late tonight. Anything to pay special attention to when I read what I missed? Questions that need answering or things you want me to post my thoughts on during catch up?

[ICEninja]

Lots of claims. The scum team is almost certainly RC, fitz, and one of Rubicon, you, and Rhinox in that descending order of likelihood.

[N]

I don't think Hiders can be roleblocked, so Rhinox suggesting that and trying to smear iceninja's clears concerns me.

[N]

We need some more replacements.

Why do you say this?

[Rubicon]

fitz hasn't posted in 8 days

[Rubicon]

N's right that hiders can't be roleblocked.

I want ICE to target me.

[Kthxbye]

Ok, so I didn't miss much.

I am very wary of these claims. If both were true, that means town has/had a tracker, a doctor, AND a hider? Either the scum team is stacked with PR's or like was said before, the MOD is on crack.

"This setup features at least one Vanilla Townie, at least one

non-standard

Hider-

like

role, at least one

standard

protective role"

I think this is important and would like everyone to weigh in:

What is everyone's take on what "non-standard" and "xxxx-like" actually mean.

Do you think the "compulsive" modifier makes a hider non-standard? Does the modifier also make the Hider not a Hider but "hider-like"?

That said, I don't see any CC's to either claim. Rub, RC, Rhinox, N, and now myself have all posted and not CC'ed. I think the above is important for everyone to answer, but I'm not going to go and push a wagon on ICE as it very well could be the compulsive modifier that makes his claim fit the game specifics.

If Equinox and fitz both post without a CC, then it's safe to assume (for now) that both claims are legit and town....at least for today.

VOTE: RC
^looooooong time coming.

[N]

Do you think the "compulsive" modifier makes a hider non-standard? Does the modifier also make the Hider not a Hider but "hider-like"?

I think the "can't target the same person twice" bit is the non-standard bit. Compulsive Hider is a weird combination, but it's still considered Normal.

[evilpacman18]

meh it's been a long week, I was gonna post but I'm just gonna sleep and get back to you all tomorrow

[ICEninja]

I'm both compulsive and disallowed to target the same target on consecutive nights (probably to ensure I'm dead before D3 or so). The role is modified fairly heavy so I'm guessing that is what the mod meant?

[Rhinox]

I don't think Hiders can be roleblocked, so Rhinox suggesting that and trying to smear iceninja's clears concerns me.

N's right that hiders can't be roleblocked.

Huh I didn't know that. Well great then. Anything preventing ICE and EPM from targetting the same player (me, Rubi, or kthx) tonight then to either confirm another townie or catch the last scum? A mafia strongman could screw things up I guess. Anything else?

[Rhinox]

I'm both compulsive and disallowed to target the same target on consecutive nights (probably to ensure I'm dead before D3 or so). The role is modified fairly heavy so I'm guessing that is what the mod meant?

:shrug: unless anyone wants to CC as a hider-like role then there's really nothing to worry about in regards to your role.

[RedCoyote]

The thing is, Kthx, I don't have a cc "per se", but I do have a PR. I didn't want to claim this until I got pacman to talk some more, but since it seems like he's ignoring the thread and I know the town is probably getting antsy to start voting, I'll go ahead and claim.

I have a 2-shot commuter role. I have two breadcrumbs for it in post 578 and 628. Post 578 was my first post and I laid it on kind of thick about me needing to check whether or not pisskop had claimed (*hint hint because he has a PR hint hint*), and in 628 I crumbed the actual role (emphasis added, of course):

C

ome on. I do this pretty often. Granted, I generally like to do it when I have really big posts because I think votes need to kind of stick out, but still. I don't see the issue here.

---

^This.

O

h, now this post, Kthx, is the one that troubles me. Aisa agrees that my role slot is scum, but she self-votes anyway.

M

e, I'm not inherently against self-voting, but I am against trying to draw attention away from substantial issues (e.g. a significant wagon on pisskop). Further, to acknowledge the wagon as good while doing this distracting makes it twice as bad.

---

I'm not the Page 2 L-1 kinda guy

M

mmm... But pisskop wasn't at L-1, nor was he threatened of being put at L-1. What a strange comment.

Also, pkop and I will probably buddy quite a bit this game, because we chose to join together.

U

h, yikes, this doesn't sound too good either. I can understand your L-1 mistake though.

---

Wouldn't the "hammer" have given good info had he flipped town?

T

his a rhetorical question? I don't like this.

---

E

h, Luc's 52 is solid.

---

Last time I voted someone to L-2 early during the game people didn't appreciate it very much. I can't go into further detail because it's an ongoing game.

R

ight...

As far as pisskop breadcrumbing, I haven't been able to find any apparent ones.

pisskop used one of the shots on N1. I did not use the last shot last night because, one, in case there was a chance my role could be confirmed somehow by the town, and two, I didn't think I would get shot last night.

So, with that all said, I'm at a weird position. Does my role count as a protective role? I can protect myself with it. The commuter wiki page lists it as a protective role as well. The Mod's link to the classification of "protective" roles (see 1) has commuter on that list. Does my role count as a "non-standard Hider-like" role? The commuter is not part of the normal list of roles that are explicitly defined as normal, but then again, it's not on the list of roles which are explicitly "non-normal" either. What's more, the hider role

is

on the list of explicitly normal roles, and the compulsive modifier (as well as X-shot) are both listed as explicitly normal as well.

So where does that leave us? Does my role specifically preclude one of the other two from existing in this game? Could all three PRs conceivably be in the same game? Is it possible that either pacman or ICE has a scum-aligned version of their roles?

Again, I didn't really want to claim this until I could pressure pacman a bit more because, frankly, I have not liked his play at all in this game. I do not think his protection makes sense based on the things he's said. I do not like his claiming so early today because it smacks of premeditated strategy. I did not like Aisa's play at all prior to pacman's replacing in. I saw nothing that would otherwise point me to thinking that that role slot had a PR. I've yet to see pacman show us any sort of breadcrumbs.

Now, with that part said as well, pacman has two major things going for him: 1) Doctor is as "standard protector-y" role as you can get. The flip side of this argument is that, as Rubicon said, although the Mod clearly states that there is a protective role in this game, it does not specify that the role is necessarily town-aligned. Further, I would've never considered a commuter as a standard protector role until I actually read the wiki that had it listed under the category of protective roles. 2) The lack of a night kill last night. The flip side of this argument is that we have a player that has claimed hider. Further, I contend that pacman's play is unusual today. I do not think it is ridiculous to consider the prospect of a deliberate no kill by the scumteam last night in order to then immediately have a player claim doctor that visited a non-controversial player like Equinox who is generally thought of as town by a majority of players here.

You know, if it was any other player that had claimed doctor, I'd be much less critical of the position we are in. Additionally, it's easy to dismiss everything I've said and say "occum's razor; vote: RC" because, in truth, I know I'm in a bad position here. I'm at the point though that I have to put all my cards on the table and we'll see what happens. I've got to say that I do not trust pacman and I think there's more to this setup than meet's the eye. I'm going to spend a little time researching the Mod to see if he has ran any games prior to this.

VOTE: evilpacman18

[Bicephalous Bob]

Not voting (5): Equinox, Rhinox, evilpacman18, havingfitz, N

pacman (2): Rubicon, RedCoyote
RedCoyote (2): ICEninja, Kthxbye

9 alive, 5 to lynch

(expired on 2014-04-24 08:16:57) until deadline

fitz has been prodded.

[ICEninja]

Well either one of RC and pacman is lying.

I know he isn't a "hider role" because that is what I am, and a standard protective role is a cop not a commuter. I'm inclined to believe pacman at this point and prefer a RC lynch. I really don't think there's going to be both a hider AND a commuter.

This is getting frustrating though. We can't get this lynch wrong because we're probably going to need a mislynch for the last scum slot, so we cannot make this decision lightly.

[Kthxbye]

Hmmmm. Well, at least one of them is for sure scum. Going to look back later when not on phone.

UNVOTE:

[Rubicon]

Well either one of RC and pacman is lying.

Why?

Hmmmm. Well, at least one of them is for sure scum. Going to look back later when not on phone.

Why?

[ICEninja]

Do you really think there is BOTH a commuter AND a hider in the same game?

[Kthxbye]

Hmmm. Well now its basically POE. Thought it was 1 protective role but it is AT LEAST 1, so its not what I originally thought. A tracker, a doc, a hider, and a commuter for town though is very unlikely imo. One is confirmed, one is in the game and not CCed, so....

[Rubicon]

@ICE:

Titus, Vanilla Townie, was lynched on day 1.
d3x, Tracker, was killed on night 1.

me = pisskop
Thom = Equinox
Kcda = Rubicon
Lord = Rhinox
Aisa = pacman
Konowa = PrivateI

Xay (VT)

This setup features at least one non-standard Hider-like role, at least one standard protective role, and exactly one anti-town faction.

Why did RC saying this last sentence not bother you?

[ICEninja]

I don't understand your question.

[Rubicon]

Well, you're a town hider and out of nowhere your top scum read declares that a town hider exists in the setup. I'd expect that to bother you. It would bother me.

[ICEninja]

I only glanced through his spoiler for things directed to myself and my other scum reads. I don't recall seeing that to begin with.

[Equinox]

This post is not a counterclaim.

I hate you all.

[Kthxbye]

Alright, for shits and giggles, let's assume for this post that all claims are true.

ICE clears: (note: I don't see last nights not kill as going after ICE due to the suspicion of him throughout the game)
Equinox
N

RC claims and crumbed commuter which is a standard protection role. (note: the claim that PK used one shot to protect himself N1 makes zero sense as scum would never even considered killing him. Also, since the 2nd shot wasn't claimed used, last nights no kill does nothing to confirm or deny this claim)

Pacman claims doc and claims to have protected Equinox. (note: the no kill last night could easily mean scum targetted Equinox which is valid as Equinox was neither super town or super scummy.)

If all 3 claims are true and town, then that leaves:
Rubicon
Kthxbye
Rhinox
havingfitz

I'm not scum and I have a hard time believing the scum team is Rhinox, fitz, and Rub.

Now, even though it's likely one of the claims is false, today we should go with the assumption they are true and town. Scum must decide to leave Pacman alive or confirm his role by killing him. If they don't kill him and target someone else, it's possible they will go another night with a no kill.

As for ICE, we get info from him whether he dies or not. Scum have info now that he must hide behind a smaller pool of people. My suggestion is that RC does not commute tonight and ICE hides behind RC while pacman protects RC.

If ICE dies, then RC is scum. If pacman dies, we get confirmation of his role. The only down side is that Scum nk one of the 2 ICE'ed confirmed townies. Even if that happens, we get info on RC (by ICE living or dying). It's still possible after all this that pacman could be scum and in order to prove it, him and his scum buddies don't kill RC and claim the protect worked. If RC is the scum, then pacman protected scum but is still alive and we have confirmed on RC with ICE's death.

The only thing that could throw a ratchet in this is if RC is scum and protected by doc, ICE get's protected from being killed due to the doc being on RC.

MOD: if you can answer this, please do. In your game mechanics, hypothetically, if a hypothetical hider hides behind scum (which would kill the hider) and that scum is under a hypothetical doc protect, does the hypothetical hider get protected from the death caused by the hypothetical scum or does the rule of hider supersede the hypothetical doc protect?

______________________________________
All that said, whether the MOD answers or not, today's pool of lynches is down to Rub, Rhinox, and fitz. Of those three, I have less of a town vibe coming from fitz.

VOTE: Fitz

What really throws a wrench into everything is that I have a hard time believing a scum slot was replaced not once, but twice. Sadly, that goes for not one but THREE fucking people in this game. One is claimed doc, one is ICE confirmed and the other is in a small pool of people that are scum.

I also have a hard time believing all 3 claims. Let's say all are actually true and of the 4 people it leaves, we lynch me today. That would mean after 3 mislynches, town now know EXACTLY who the scum team is? No way any MOD let's that even come close to happening.

We really have no way of figuring out which claim is false today though, so it's best to assume they are true until tomorrow.