Game of Thrones

[Aegor]

So you agree it was sexual assault, then? Didn't you just say that the director, who said that it was consensual, is infallible?

The director did not say the entire episode was consensual. He seems to view the scene as identical to the books: Jaime assaulted Cersei, who subsequently consented to sex. Hence there is both sexual assault and consensual sex.

Are you agreeing with the director, or are you strawmanning his critics? It's high time you chose a fallacy and stuck by it.

Neither, fortunately for me.

(By the way, the shocking thing isn't that rape happens in Westeros. Bad things happen in that world, and that's pretty much the reason we watch it every week. No, that is not an issue. That is part of the story, for better or worse.

The problem, pretty simply, is the director's thoughts on the scene.

You do not speak for everyone. The director's thoughts on the scene are not the problem for many viewers, who may not even be aware of the director's comments. The scene itself is the issue.

So shut the fuck up. :*

[Aegor]

If the director had said it was rape blahblahblah then they wouldn't be arguing with you right now.

Why are they arguing now? It is not even clear to me what the disagreement is.

[Tierce]

Rhinox: this is the last post I'm making on this subject because it makes me uncomfortable.

Yes, elsewhere the director has said it was rape. I've seen those articles. But there is no way, no how, that rape is ever "consensual [in the end]", which was a line that Graves said about it; being turned on by the power struggle does not make it consensual, and with lack of consent, it is rape.

In the book, while GRRM is pretty appalling at sex scenes, Cersei's complaint is about the location. And there is very much an enthusiastic yes. She wants Jaime, she needs him, etc. In the show, there is no instance of consent at any point.

Comparisons to season 1 are unfair for a multitude of reasons. With Jaime and Cersei, we are talking about a sick, twisted relationship, but the core impression has always been that Jaime loves her, and so far we have seen Jaime standing up against rape in the show itself.


To absta, I can only reinforce AniX's post. Alex Graves is a crucial element of the show and when he has a twisted perception of how something he is directing works, the final product is going to rightfully bother a lot of people, and commentary on it is commentary that is pertinent to the show. Please don't dismiss such things as "ruining the thread/discussion". Yeah, it's an important subject. I'm sorry if it bothers you, but it definitely bothered me and my way of dealing with it involves talking about it. You jumped in with a complaint about the discussion of

this

scene, so don't bring season 3 into the mix?


I'm done discussing this. My problem is with the direction of the scene and it means that I'll be more careful with Alex Graves's work in the future.


In other news, Westeros's brothels really need to start locking rooms' doors. I have lost count of how many interrupted scenes we've had.

[xRECKONERx]

It's twice with Oberyn alone. Making me angry.

[quadz08]

In other news, Westeros's brothels really need to start locking rooms' doors. I have lost count of how many interrupted scenes we've had.

Seriously.

That said, if Tywin Lannister walks into your brothel and says "unlock that fucking door," you're prooooobably gonna unlock the fucking door.

[Tierce]

"consensual rape"


I know, Reck. Believe me, I know.

That said, if Tywin Lannister walks into your brothel and says "unlock that fucking door," you're prooooobably gonna unlock the fucking door.

This seems like the perfect time to bring this back.

[Aegor]

Comparisons to season 1 are unfair for a multitude of reasons. With Jaime and Cersei, we are talking about a sick, twisted relationship, but the core impression has always been that Jaime loves her, and so far we have seen Jaime standing up against rape in the show itself.

I may be missing something, but the show has offered no indication to me that Jaime is categorically against rape (or, rather, that he cares enough to oppose it whenever it may occur). Has he ever said anything suggesting this? Has his opposition somehow been portrayed as universal? He certainly helped Brienne avoid rape, but his relationship with Brienne is incomparable to his relationship with Cersei, in part because he does know Brienne's history and her value system.

Does anyone have any non-Brienne examples of Jaime's opposition to rape? I guess that would settle whether this scene was inconsistent with his character.

[quadz08]

Tierce - Bahahahahaha what a good clip



Aegor - I believe he was the one who said something along the lines of "If I were a woman, I would make them kill me before I let them rape me." Don't remember the context and could be wrong about the character saying it.

[Aegor]

Was anyone else a bit sad that

Daario did not take a giant poo in the direction of Meereen

? I have actually been looking forward to that the entire show, so I am sad they replaced it with a lamer variant.

[xRECKONERx]

Did I actually say that? That quote doesn't go to the right post...

P.edi: I think it'd be a little hard to

have Daario take a shit towards Meereen and also be Dany's schoolgirl crush. It worked with Belwas because there was no need to have him be "appealing" to Dany.

[Tierce]

"If I was a woman, I'd make them kill me."

Line by Jaime Lannister.

Try harder.

[Aegor]

"If I was a woman, I'd make them kill me."

Line by Jaime Lannister.

Try harder.

Which tells me that Jaime would rather die than be raped, presumably violently and by strangers, not that he would oppose anyone else's rape or step in to help or that he is conscious of the modern definition of consent or that he thinks rape would apply to what happened between him and Cersei, etc.

[quadz08]

IN OTHER NEWS

this shit is hilarious

[Korts]

(Jaime doesn't have to be conscious of the modern definition of consent, but it would be nice if the director was.)

[absta101]

Alex is doing two more episodes I believe. Ep 8 and 10.

Michelle McLaren is doing the next two episodes. I have high expectations.

[zoraster]

One reason that it's bothersome what the director thinks is because it has obvious implications on how we're supposed to view Jaime. I sort of get the impression that we're still supposed to be on the Jaime redemption train even if he's having some backsliding. That is just not going to work here. And that tears me apart

because it is such a departure from the books

.

It also just seems so needless. The scene could still have been depraved and shocking if they had had sex in the sept in front of their dead love child and king. And the problem is THAT'S what I think the director thinks he's giving us. Just a part in that depraved scene. Not something entirely different. And you can wave your hands and say, "oh, it doesn't matter what the director thinks" but that scene is still there. We still have to deal with Jaime later. If I were confident that the writers were saying "okay, we're making Jaime into an irredeemable villain here, then okay. It wouldn't be how I'd like to see it, but that happens. But I get the sense that I'm going to be called to cheer him on at some point, and I refuse to do that.

[Jal]

The sex scene in the books does have Cersei being consensual with Jaime, although I believe it's written in some weird fantasy male viewpoint of how women work sexually. As is typical GRRM. The sex scene shown last night gave no indication of consent whatsoever, not even in the typically offensive, "you penetrated me and then I started liking it" sense. It wasn't "rapey," a "yes and no" rape, or a "rape that became consensual." It is rape, and there is no good reason for for it to have turned into a rape scene, as usual!

It also goes beyond what the director thinks, because this sort of thinking is actually fairly typical in our culture. Seeing that obvious rape scene and having the director say it (not obviously) became consensual just reinforces a type of "blurred line" thinking when it comes to consent. Either people's weird version of what doesn't constitute rape is validated or others then look back on the show and try to find reason that it was consent. I'm already reading comments from people defending it by saying that Cersei didn't fight back enough, or scream, which would somehow be the

real

indicators that it was rape.

(For other news people, I am a big fan of the out-of-context-motivational Joffrey trend http://i.imgur.com/KhtOa1D.gif)

[Tierce]

I'm already reading comments from people defending it by saying that Cersei didn't fight back enough, or scream, which would somehow be the real indicators that it was rape.

Or that Cersei deserves it for being a horrible person. The idea of rape as punishment being endorsed by real people makes my skin crawl.

(For other news people, I am a big fan of the out-of-context-motivational Joffrey trend http://i.imgur.com/KhtOa1D.gif)

I also love this take on Joffrey.

[Nexus]

The episode was good - Tywin laying the law down in the Sept, and the Pod/Tyrion scenes were highlights, as was the last bit of Dany stood outside Mereen.

I don't mind Sam so much in the books, but fuck me the scenes with him in are so wet and shit.

Littlefinger's accent is fucking terrible.

[zoraster]

SPOILER fwiw here is the sex scene directly from the books: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 6#p5838076 SPOILER

[xRECKONERx]

Yeah Littlefinger is kinda... he's only good when playing off of Varus or Tyrion, I think. In that scene with Sansa, the accent was cringeworthy.

[xRECKONERx]

what have i found

http://www.danbarham.com/dinklage/

[Faraday]

The accent is always bad, in fairness Gillen had a cringeworthy Irish accent in Love/Hate and he's Irish, so etc.

[evilpacman18]

the accent was cringeworthy.

I'm glad it wasn't just me! I swear it changed from last time he spoke.

[Venmar]

The Tywin scenes though