[OLD] Open Setup Ideas and Discussion

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Medical Mountaneous

10 1-shot Docs

2 Scum

Don't Drop The Soap Mountainous

10 1-shot Jailkeepers

2 Scum

Twice the amount of possibilities each night rendering the town roles even more useless woo.

Don't Drop The Soap Lovers' White Flag

5 pairs of 1-shot Jailkeeper Lovers

1 pair of Scum Lovers

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You could just straight up give them a regular daykill.

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I don't think it's fundamentally flawed. I actually like the gambler role as a concept, but it probably needs some refinement.

And the night-lynch is an odd extra concept that you seem to have just thrown in with no thoughts on its effect on gameplay. Keep in mind that a night lynch (which I assume means votes are anonymous) means that scum will vote in a block, which gives them basically an extra nightkill as you get close to MYLO/LYLO territory. Again, not an inherently flawed concept, but it needs work, and maybe they don't belong in the same game right as they're being introduced.

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I don't think it's fundamentally flawed. I actually like the gambler role as a concept, but it probably needs some refinement.

And the night-lynch is an odd extra concept that you seem to have just thrown in with no thoughts on its effect on gameplay. Keep in mind that a night lynch (which I assume means votes are anonymous) means that scum will vote in a block, which gives them basically an extra nightkill as you get close to MYLO/LYLO territory. Again, not an inherently flawed concept, but it needs work, and maybe they don't belong in the same game right as they're being introduced.

Well what positives are there for the gambler? I'd like your answer.

I think it's inherently a role that weakens the lynch as a town weapon. This is not inherently a bad thing, in and of itself. It just needs to be placed in a setup that's balanced with that in mind (i.e., not this one).

It's an interesting role, that puts a neat twist on the game.

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Also, phil's game. Not really mafia anymore, IMO.

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The definition of mafia I've seen referenced on this site is "informed minority vs. uninformed majority"

Your game does not fit that definition.

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Just a balanced no flip game really XD

For a no-flip game, I suggest that you make it 11:2. No reveal is hilariously scumsided, IMO.
For possible roles:
1 town living rolecop
1 town dead alignment and role cop
1 town (x-shot?) vig
1 town gunsmith
1 town bodyguard
6 VTs
1 scum dead rolecop
1 scum living rolecop

In other news, Hoopla's game is freaking awesome. Just saying.

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Is it just me or are White Flag games like way scumsided? 5:3 seems too stronk, all things considered. What do you guys think of Less Pressure (2innochil,3maf,3vanilla) for Vent?

Where are you finding a 5:3 white flag? Cause yeah that's hilariously scumsided.

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Scumhunter 8p
Less Pressure
etc

Those both have hilariously townsided mechanics and/or roles to balance it though.

scumhunter

The scum have no normal nightkill. However, after Day One only:
If a scum player is lynched, scum chose one player to kill, but it then becomes White Flag (scum lose when there is only one scum left)
If a town player is lynched, scum must kill one of their own.

That guarantees only two scum left after D1. This makes it 4:2, with no NKs, and possibly in White Flag setup if town gets lucky D1.

Less Pressure give town two innocent children and no scum nightkills. That's hilariously powerful, as it narrows down your lynch pool by two right from the beginning, as well as guaranteeing the good intent of those two players. I'd venture to say that it might even be townsided, depending on the players who get the innocent child roles.

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oh god so much scumsided

far too much potential for tons of town death really fast.

give it 2 goons and 11 town, and maybe give the town 2 x-shot bps and then mafia 1 x-shot bp?

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You'd need 5 vanillas if messenger can be scum.

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Chaos, every player has 50% chance to be mafia. >_>

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ok, so it depends on how you assign the roles / setup.

Do a randomization of 1 messenger, then 6 non-messengers, and THEN randomize again to create 2 scum.

The messenger then has the same percentage of being scum as any other player.

If you randomize by doing Scum messenger vs. Town messenger, then yes, he has a 50% chance.

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Well ok 50% is wrong. What I intended to say was every player has an equal % chance of drawing mafia.

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ahaha sorry. Didn't think about the fact that it would need to be coded.

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Also, can we please call it 'Overrun?' Cause dear lord the grammar.

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Llamafluff, I quite like that setup.

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The mechanic is really cool, but yeah, far too much scum in it. Assuming lynch is picked every day, you then have a single town-controlled PR each night, vs. mafia vs. SK. Preeeeeetty weighted towards the mafia.

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Using the same mechanic, I'd say definitely no SK (at least for the first few runs; a variation with 3rd party could work, probably, but not until it's more familiar how the balance of voting on PRs works out).

Perhaps 1 vCop, 1 vDoc, 1 vVig, 1 x-shot AnyGovernor, 6 VTs vs 1 GF + 2 goons. Perhaps you could make the Governor ability kick in D2, with votes for the person who wields the Governor ability made during the prior night phase?

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However, this setup does lend itself to breaking strategy. Cop outs himself D1, town votes Cop+Doc every day. Doc protects the Cop every night, while the Cop collects investigations until the scum can find and kill the Doc. Then town votes for Lynches and Vigs til scum is dead.

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I'd say private votecount, but who receives the governor ability is made public. (At least, that was my original thought.)

Not sure how the math works out, but it's a possible 5 days/nights of nothing but Cop+Doc interaction. Not sure if it's actually worth the time, but it's possible. *shrug*

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I'd say private, but whatever you feel works best for game balance.

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You could run that in the open queue before (and now, for that matter). >_>

What's the point of making the mafia killproof? Do you mean lynchproof as well?

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The counterpart you mention is Couples Night(less). I'm fairly unconvinced that the EV on that one is 50%; it seems unlikely.

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Huh. Interesting.

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With the amount of wierdness in opens recently... maybe making Elmo's old Popcorn Mafia an open might be something to look at. For those who havent been around long enough to remember it was

8x Vanilla
4x Goon

Nightless, No Lynching

Pregame scum votes to give townie a gun. They have X time to shoot. If shooter hits scum they shoot again. If shooter hits townie, the townie becomes new shooter. Timeout results in suicide and scum vote on new gunholder.

Basically classic nightless with a twist, but with site meta so different from original run im not sure how most would deal with just sitting around.

Uh-- there seems like no penalty to everybody just shooting the next person on the list.

A,

B, C, D,

E, F.

A shoots B. B is the new shooter. B shoots C. C now has the gun. C immediately shoots D. Now D gets a shot. D turns around and shoots E. Hey, E was mafia! D gets another chance, so shoots F.

Do town ever die from being shot, or do they just "become the new shooter"?

Yeah, I was going to say, it seems impossible for Town to lose. >_>

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That setup is going to be hilariously awesome. That is all.

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What if it was a Smallcown (Smallfarm?) game?

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Vanillizing a mafia member just makes them a mafia goon, it doesn't turn them town.

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Fruit Vendor always targets someone he thinks is scummy; mafia gets stuck being unable to NK the good players (and probably unable to NK anyone, in practice). You'd have to balance it pretty hard in favor of mafia.

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^This is a good idea.

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I'd prefer keeping anonymity enforced without interference in the mechanics, to see how the 'addon' effects balance by statistically comparing faction win/loose rate to that of the vanilla setup - assuming it becomes popular.

Anonymity is almost literally impossible. See Author Mafia for an example; everyone was forced into an alt where they were intended to post as someone in a completely different style from their typical posting, and several players still managed to work out who was who.

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I quite like the concept of the SK that flips as a mafia team. It's an interesting thing.

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Instead of doing two janitors, just make a factional 1-shot janitor.

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I can almost guarantee that game is mafia sided. 2 janitor shots in a game with 3 NKs, max? That's fucking brutal for town.

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You could maybe give them 1 janitor shot that isn't spent if they're jailkept? I can see what you're saying, but you have to take into account that the JK being accurate is relatively unlikely, and again, 2/3 NKs being unflipped is pretty rough on town.

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Public cop is obscenely strong, especially if you can have 5 of them. I'd suggest weaker PRs if you're doing multiples. Tracker, Vig, Gunsmith (gets positive on Vigs), perhaps?

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Actually, Vig is probably as bad if not worse than Cop. Hrm.

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Is there a reason you can't have seer and cop be Odd-Night, and both Mafia and Werewolves have Even-Night kills?

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If you want it to be balanced, I think that's the only way it's really gonna work?

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Hider is a different role here; better fit for what you're looking for is Commuter.

That said, I think this could actually work? Not sure.

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I don't know if this is the place to do it, but I have an idea for a set-up that could be fun. No idea if it's been done before either.

Paranoid Psychopaths

9 players

3 Individual Serial Killers, who every night get the choice between: Hiding (rendering them unkillable) or Killing
6 1-shot Hiders, who can during one night of their choosing hide themselves away from danger.

SK wins when he's the sole survivor.
Hiders win when SK's are dead.

Could this work?

I want to bring this back to the fore since it's a setup that's at least reasonable. Thought from people better at this than me? (Hider really means commuter.)

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Try a setup that isn't two cults fighting one another is the only suggestion I can think of.

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Everyone needs

good

Neighbours

9 Town Neighbours
3 Scum Neighbours
Night Start.


Split {T,T,T} {T,T,T} {T,T,M} {T,M,M}
Scum have day talk.

Distribute Neighbors randomly, but guarantee that all 3 mafia cannot be in the same neighborhood.

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I'm toying with an idea, but I'd like feedback on it before I move forward to balancing it. Essentially, while I like multiball, it's far too swingy. This is my aim at creating something that feels a little like multiball, without being as crazy due to crosskills.

2 scumteams of 2, both teams win/lose together. Both have a factional kill. The twist? Both also have a factional cop, and may also choose each night to not kill in return for being able to cop twice. The factional kills will kill a mafia member.

As far as other roles, I definitely want to see a Town Tailor. Maybe Town faction-specific cops as well, although I love the idea of Town Tailor + Scum copping and not much else.

I'm not sure the cop would really get used, or what a reason to use it would be.

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I dunno about a modification to an existing setup, but the concept is still good with a couple PRs.

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That's probably similar balance-wise to Bird 7p.

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Power Play?

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Stack the desk =/= stack the deck

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I mean, Night Start Greater Idea is a fine idea. Nothing wrong with it.

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I like the idea of delayed actions, but I don't think a mountainous setup is the place for it. Mountainous is frustrating enough without adding additional consternation for both sides.

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There's also Timeshift Mafia. I actually designed this setup as part of a mish-mash game, and d3f3nd3r liked it enough to run it. All abilities were delayed, but the SK had a 1-shot timeshift that forced all abilities to resolve "correctly" (on the night they were used), a regular kill, and a 1-shot timeshifted kill (where only that kill resolved the night it was used).

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Werewolves and Mafia are SUPPOSED TO TRY TO KILL THE OTHER FACTION!

Not necessarily. Not to mention that if town is relying on scum to kill other scum, your game is poorly balanced pretty much by definition.

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Well I have seen games like Cheery's Vengeball with 4 scum and 5 town.

I guess you can count them as killing roles.

The sequence goes like this. C targets D, B targets C, and A targets B. C is blocked because he is targetted. B is blocked because he is targetted. Only B dies.

Yes, SK and Scum are killing roles

That only works because of the special vengeful rules (no NK, instaloss upon GF lynch)

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Day Talk is a much smaller advantage than a confirmed town player.

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I actually quite like We Need a Fifth.

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I actually quite like We Need a Fifth.

Does that mean you'd make an exception and let BBMolla (or someone else if he doesn't want to, I volunteer) run it in the Micro Queue?

Yes, actually.

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Drive to someone's house with a baseball bat, a pair of pliers, duct tape, and some rope.

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It's 3-player LYLO: the Drawn Out Butthurt Version

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It's not even mafia anymore

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Another Matrix proposition:

Vanilla Townie	Mafia Goon	Town Cop
Town Jailkeeper	Town Bodyguard	Mafia Roleblocker
Mafia Rolecop	Town Tracker	Town Doctor

Pick any row or column and add 1 Mafia Goon and 5 Vanilla Townies.

Replace bodyguard with something of similar power and this is probably good. Not sure what to suggest, unfortunately... How does a Named Townie work in that slot? Is Named Townie something we'd want to use for Newbies at all?

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oh god double roleblockers make it stop make it stop

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Backup is a fun role... would it just be "you get the role of the first person lynched" or is it "you get the role of the first dead PR"?

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It's not actually a Universal Backup if we run it that way, so it'd be called just a Backup.

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Statistics r gud

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I've no idea how balance works out, but the concept is exceedingly cool.

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Oh gotcha, I see where you're going with the setup. Hm. Lemme think about it.

Except, no. I mean, ok, there's a chance of that. But somebody will talk people out of lynch all lurkers. Or maybe the Sui. talks some. I know what I said, but if I were in that role (and didn't lose the motivation to play altogether), I'd set up some nice ties to a nice townie, with a little WIFOM vs my partner.
But uh, yeah. I wouldn't say that, even if you lurk almost completely, you're in too much danger of being lynched. Unless the site meta has changed significantly while I was away.

Uh okay?
I mean I don't see how this is different from any other game.

The appeal is that normally in a 6p, it's day 1 mylo. Here it's guarunteed to have two (three if you lynch the suicidal goon) lynches, making it an actual mafia game with connections despite being 6p. The only current decent 6p in the lovers one, which is nightless with 2 mafia lovers and 4 vts. I like more deaths to happen, and with this you get more flips to base stuff on.

It's probably better suited for skype mafia. Or face to face.

Molla, instead of a suicidal goon, you could just force the mafia to off one of their own N1 if there is a town lynch on D1

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Except you now have a confirmed innocent that will survive until the day after the doctor dies, 100%. Might as well just make it a 1-shot BP IC. The game is dull and teaches nothing about night action choice or how to use night actions during the day phase.

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Twon power roles are part of the game unless you're playing a mountainous. Newbie games need to reflect and include that.

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Town

power roles

night actions are part of the game unless you're playing a mountainous. Newbie games need to reflect and include that.

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Newbie listmod, ultimately.

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I SK gets run up to a lynch and immediately gets to play kingmaker in that setup. He's lost but gets to choose if the other SK wins or not (pretty much). That' shitty and should be avoided as much as possible.

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hope +1 is about a million times better than faith +1, as a note

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Please do not ever included percentage roles in any capacity ever thank you

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Not mafia regardless if whether or not it's fair.

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You're assuming the Jester has a smaller chance to get lynched than random; thus, incompetent.

Your logic does not follow. I don't think it's particularly likely that

any

player is capable of consistently playing jester well enough to get lynched more often than random in that setup.

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Because nobody has practice trying to get lynched, whereas even average scumplayers have seen it / done it a few times.

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Roleblock gets shot by PGO because PGO is passive/reflexive and thus typically cannot be roleblocked

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They can be doctored though

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that's.... not accurate at all?

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oh I see

fair point

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If the whole point of your setup is "people will change alignments," then it's practically guaranteed to be an unfun setup in practice.

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Still a cult

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no, slimer

they wouldn't

because you lose by hammering in literally every situation

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Brief concern - you've made some size distinctions, and referred to 10-13 player setups as "normal," rather than "mini." I'm not familiar enough with wiki stuff to change that, but those two terms have very distinct and important definitions here.

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Large (14+) / Mini (13 or less) / Micro (9 or less) are the three different sizes used, for clarification.

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Thanks, wgeurts. It's much appreciated.

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You'd want to talk to Llamafluff for that. He'd have the most updated list.

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It's not mafia because there's no informed minority.

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no kills real strong for town

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yes it is

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single mafioso is the biggest problem with those setups, imo

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single mafia games tend to be unfun - difficult to catch mafia with no associative tells, and mafia have no one to plot and plan with. It removes a lot of the entertaining elements. A balanced 2:5 (which is tough but possible with some mechanics and/or PRs) is more likely to be entertaining for your players.

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Only very rarely. The long day phases here are a well-established standard here. It allows for more people in more time zones to participate more effectively without spending 24 hours a day in front of their computer for a week.

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(jester is almost always a bad role regardless of whether or not it ends the game)

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Optimal play here is for everyone to claim bodyguard and plan a circular chain protect on N1. The mafia will shoot someone, and the person who ends up dying will be the person a mafia goon was supposed to protect. Lynch that mafioso and repeat, win on D3 every time. Only exception is mafia choosing to no-kill every night.

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why would i die, not h?

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OH never mind I got it now

oh I don't think you can break it from right off the bat I guess then. I don't know if it's much fun - and what happens if a, b, and c all protect d who gets shot?