Mewbie 1493~ Game Ovah

[Josh_B]

ATTN: JOSH - THIS WHOLE POST IS DIRECTED AT YOU

I EXPECT A RESPONSE

Spoiler: compacted sidebar

She's lying to you. The Wifom comments are to shake your confidence. Your reads were perfect.

Josh. I never ever call people village idiots because I think it's rude and kind of mean, but this post right here is 100% VI.
Those were not reads, they were Night Kill Analyses. Trying to figure out who might have done the NK and why is always WIFOM because anybody could have done it for any reason (he's suspecting me, he's not suspecting me, he's suspecting a bunch of townies and people might listen when he's dead, he might read me later, I just don't like him, I want to confuse people, everybody's townreading him so he won't get lynched, and so on) and, if you're Town, you just can't know which of those (if any) was the reason, whether it points to only one partner or both, whether the implicated partner did the NK, whether he'll do the next one, who the next one will be, and so forth.

I find that being implicated in any way tends to rub scum the wrong way. As Town I generally look at the reads and consider each one as possibility, (even reads that are put on me), as scum any and every read is a cause for suspicion. ILF said that she was new and not sure how to play. Her reads were very indicative of how she was feeling about the game. New information leads to new ideas and new posts. Knowing what we know about ILF's playing experience, analyzing each of her reads in turn would be more effective than systematically labeling all of the reads as crap.

As far as your reasoning for the NK. You are the only one thus far that has come to any conclusion that it is was a logical kill, but didn't place any suspicion on who would find it logical. A NK analysis tends to include WIFOM. WIFOM was missing in your post.

It left your options open just enough to show that you had exact suspicions.

Scum keep their options open. Town share definitive opinions. You're allowed to say "I think this person is Scum, but there are some things that give me pause." You're allowed to say "I'm pretty sure this person is Town for these reasons, despite that one post that looked a bit bad." You shouldn't say "there are things that could make everyone Scum, so I can jump on whatever wagon springs up first."
Further, saying you suspect everyone is the exact opposite of "exact suspicions."

Town/newb town are unsure of themselves and go back and forth on their reads. Town are also willing to explore new possibilities. Scum on the other hand, know definitively that a person is or isn't scum and often forget that their partner should still be considered as a possible suspect. All of ILF's reads seemed to be equal, and I find no indication that she is going easy on any certain player.

Notice how GM attacked you as a player and didn't question you about any particular read?

I did actually question her about several particular NKAs (not reads, as

that wasn't a reads post

). She didn't answer.
As for "attacking" her as a player, I'm not really interested in that. Newbie games are to some extent about improving one's skillset as a newer player and that's the goal I'm attempting to be helpful with, as improving her posting is something she's specified she's working towards.
I'm also not sure where saying "these parts of these posts were good" is "attacking" someone.

Really? You never said any part of her post was good. You made statements calling the post "fluff, theory, WIFOM" and then further calling the reads irrelevant to the gamestate. I thought it was equivalent of

Why don't you actually read my posts?

I do read your posts. I've read this game twice. Your posts seem mostly seem empty, restricted and vague. You have a few posts that seem definitive. They are mostly FoSing certain players for reasons that are contradictory to your own statements. For instance, you implicated SNS as scum because he thought I was town. But at the same time, you said that my string of consciousness led you to believe I am town. Mith parroted your same statements about me but you didn't attack him on his thinking that I am town. However, you did implicate ILF, and I asked you about, but you avoided it.
At first, I thought your play was IC related, but now I'm thinking it's probably scum related.

I bet it's really hard to play to your wincon as scum and help players.

You're hilarious.

Actually, it shouldn't be, and there are many players (ex. Nacho, Thor) who are quite good at that sort of thing.

And Further, Concerning ILF. Your attack, (calling someone's reads "fluffy, theory, WIFOM") was met with an unvote that indicated frustration from a player that is trying to learn, and attempting to get better. Did you show any empathy for that? No!. You called the post irrelevant to the gamestate.

Tweaked tags a bit~Mala

[Josh_B]

I do enjoy WIFOM. After that post I do actually want everyone to comment on thar NK now though.

I think I missed your thoughts on the NK. Nope, you haven't made any yet. What do think?

[Not_Mafia]

I don't think much of it, by which I mean, nothing jumped out about it to me and I could wifom myself in to oblivion over it, but I wno't

[Mr Glidder]

Can't imagine how any more nightkill discussion would help us. It's just full of distraction, and I think Josh_B is becoming less towny for bringing it back up.

My argument against Goodmorning was that I thought Goodmorning was doing an obvious softclaim to attempt to build towncred and to prevent anyone from arguing against her.

That's not really how softclaims work. Obvious softclaims shouldn't be providing much towncred at all.

Mod: Can you poke the quote/spoiler code in 400? Something there's making the rest of the page look funny.

[Not_Mafia]

Confirming I'm having the same issue, it's very minor though

[saturnine]

GM: Color me obtuse, but aren't games independent of each other? I mean, I get the whole concept of meta and recognizing playstyles and so on, but this seems like more than that. How can you, or anyone, be THAT certain of someone's role in one game based on another, ongoing game? This is a theory question so don't lie to me

[goodmorning]

1. I'm worried because when you say anyone could be Scum it gives you a good excuse to vote anyone. That flexibility is really handy for Scum to have because it means they can join any wagon they want.
2. Your most recent posts where you talked about me, those were good. You laid out your opinion and your evidence for that opinion. That's what makes a good post, at the bottom of it.
The NKA post wasn't

bad

, per se, just too steeped in WIFOM to be practical.
3. I don't know what TPR means in this context.

1. That's not how I see it. It prevents townies from not voting on scum based on people they previously thought of as town.
2. Okay...I suppose I can attempt to continue with those posts.
3. Town Power Role. As I mentioned above, I misworded a little.

1. You're also allowed to change your mind.
2. Either way. It's just good to see you taking stands.
3. I see.

@Goodmorning: waitwaitwait, when did you question specifics about my reads? Could you link it?

As I said, not your reads but your NKA.

What if a/the Scum are experienced? Would they be "afraid" of me?
Why would Mr G's scumpartner not talk with him about the game so far and who to kill? Taking people as single units when this is a team game is rather foolish.

ATTN: JOSH - THIS WHOLE POST IS DIRECTED AT YOU

I EXPECT A RESPONSE

Spoiler: compacted sidebar,

Josh. I never ever call people village idiots because I think it's rude and kind of mean, but this post right here is 100% VI.
Those were not reads, they were Night Kill Analyses. Trying to figure out who might have done the NK and why is always WIFOM because anybody could have done it for any reason (he's suspecting me, he's not suspecting me, he's suspecting a bunch of townies and people might listen when he's dead, he might read me later, I just don't like him, I want to confuse people, everybody's townreading him so he won't get lynched, and so on) and, if you're Town, you just can't know which of those (if any) was the reason, whether it points to only one partner or both, whether the implicated partner did the NK, whether he'll do the next one, who the next one will be, and so forth.

I find that being implicated in any way tends to rub scum the wrong way. As Town I generally look at the reads and consider each one as possibility, (even reads that are put on me), as scum any and every read is a cause for suspicion. ILF said that she was new and not sure how to play. Her reads were very indicative of how she was feeling about the game. New information leads to new ideas and new posts. Knowing what we know about ILF's playing experience, analyzing each of her reads in turn would be more effective than systematically labeling all of the reads as crap.

As far as your reasoning for the NK. You are the only one thus far that has come to any conclusion that it is was a logical kill, but didn't place any suspicion on who would find it logical. A NK analysis tends to include WIFOM. WIFOM was missing in your post.

Once again, those were not reads. They were NKAs.

As far as my thoughts on the NK: mafioso was being widely Townread and not likely to be lynched. Those people are usually NK'd. Anybody could have done it for exactly that reason. Do I know that that was the reason? No, but I find it somewhat likely. The absence of WIFOM was purposeful, as WIFOM is 100% unhelpful.

Scum keep their options open. Town share definitive opinions. You're allowed to say "I think this person is Scum, but there are some things that give me pause." You're allowed to say "I'm pretty sure this person is Town for these reasons, despite that one post that looked a bit bad." You shouldn't say "there are things that could make everyone Scum, so I can jump on whatever wagon springs up first."
Further, saying you suspect everyone is the exact opposite of "exact suspicions."

Town/newb town are unsure of themselves and go back and forth on their reads. Town are also willing to explore new possibilities. Scum on the other hand, know definitively that a person is or isn't scum and often forget that their partner should still be considered as a possible suspect. All of ILF's reads seemed to be equal, and I find no indication that she is going easy on any certain player.

One of us has quite a lot of experience playing newbie games here on MafiaScum. Please, do tell me more about how I don't know newb behaviour.

I did actually question her about several particular NKAs (not reads, as

that wasn't a reads post

). She didn't answer.
As for "attacking" her as a player, I'm not really interested in that. Newbie games are to some extent about improving one's skillset as a newer player and that's the goal I'm attempting to be helpful with, as improving her posting is something she's specified she's working towards.
I'm also not sure where saying "these parts of these posts were good" is "attacking" someone.

Really? You never said any part of her post was good. You made statements calling the post "fluff, theory, WIFOM" and then further calling the reads irrelevant to the gamestate. I thought it was equivalent of

You need to read what I am actually writing.

2. Your most recent posts where you talked about me, those were good. You laid out your opinion and your evidence for that opinion. That's what makes a good post, at the bottom of it.

I did not call that particular post "fluff, theory, WIFOM" but her contributions up to that point.
Those were not reads, they were NKAs, and NKAs drip with WIFOM and are therefore completely unhelpful and almost completely irrelevant.

Why don't you actually read my posts?

I do read your posts. I've read this game twice. Your posts seem mostly seem empty, restricted and vague. You have a few posts that seem definitive. They are mostly FoSing certain players for reasons that are contradictory to your own statements. For instance, you implicated SNS as scum because he thought I was town. But at the same time, you said that my string of consciousness led you to believe I am town. Mith parroted your same statements about me but you didn't attack him on his thinking that I am town. However, you did implicate ILF, and I asked you about, but you avoided it.
At first, I thought your play was IC related, but now I'm thinking it's probably scum related.

No, I called sns Scum because I didn't like his

tacit assumption

that you were Town. There's a difference.
You asked me why I suspected ILF, and I told you that I didn't like her lack of meaningful contribution up to that point. How is that avoiding?
I am quickly losing my patience with you.

And Further, Concerning ILF. Your attack, (calling someone's reads "fluffy, theory, WIFOM") was met with an unvote that indicated frustration from a player that is trying to learn, and attempting to get better. Did you show any empathy for that? No!. You called the post irrelevant to the gamestate.

You're a fucking moron.

GM: Color me obtuse, but aren't games independent of each other? I mean, I get the whole concept of meta and recognizing playstyles and so on, but this seems like more than that. How can you, or anyone, be THAT certain of someone's role in one game based on another, ongoing game? This is a theory question so don't lie to me

Well, all I can say is that sometimes you just are going to be that certain. There are times when you just know things. The trick is to distinguish between things you know and things you only think you know, and that just takes practice.
And this is probably too much ongoing game discussion already.

[Josh_B]

GM. I think you are scum.
See post #350 at the top of page 15, if you have any questions about why.

[I Love Fairies]

Does this post literally call everyone Scum? Yes it does. What does that mean? I don't know, but it sure doesn't look good.
What if a/the Scum are experienced? Would they be "afraid" of me?
Why would Mr G's scumpartner not talk with him about the game so far and who to kill? Taking people as single units when this is a team game is rather foolish.

I'm suspicious of you mainly because you haven't posted that much meaningful content this game. It's all been fluff, theory, WIFOM.

And ikd is Town, for reasons I can't talk about.

I do enjoy WIFOM. After that post I do actually want everyone to comment on thar NK now though.

And what motivation, exactly, would Town have for wanting to sidetrack the thread in such a manner?
Besides, it seems an obvious NK to me, as only one person (and that one Josh) was scumreading him iirc.[/quote]

I apologize. I did miss this. I think I was just so upset at your analysis of how bad my posts are that I missed the rest of the post.

I don't think that it's the fear associated with you being an experienced player, I think it's just more that everyone knows your an experienced player. You are, most probably, better than nearly every single other player who has less experience, all people who have more experience do have an edge on others. Scum would recognize this and would try to take out ICs/SEs as fast as they can.


And I dunno, but calling someone a "fucking moron" seems pretty awful to me. Maybe not scum indicative, but I still feel like it's uncalled for.

You know what? I'm going to go ahead and trust myself.

VOTE: Goodmorning


Also, how am I more scumlike than IMD even though he has posted less content than me and is more experienced? I have literally double his posts, with more content on average in each post per one of his and yet I'm not posting anything of content? I mean, maybe I'd understand, but IMD straight up said he likes to make large posts often.

[I Love Fairies]

^^^ Quote fail, I'm sorry.

[imkingdavid]

You are, most probably, better than nearly every single other player who has less experience, all people who have more experience do have an edge on others. Scum would recognize this and would try to take out ICs/SEs as fast as they can.

This sort of reasoning has been around for a while (i.e. the reasoning that if a player is experienced they will probably be killed firsts), but it is still WIFOM. What if scum is not all new players (i.e. at least one experienced player)? They might leave an experienced town player alive just to make the game more interesting, or maybe just because they feel like it. And don't mistake being a newb for being bad at the game. Some people can hit the ground running pretty well, so even a newb scum might decide they can match up to an experienced town.

Anyway, as I said, this is all WIFOM. The whole "you're IC/SE so why are you still alive" bit is not a valid reason for someone being scum.

Also, how am I more scumlike than IMD even though he has posted less content than me and is more experienced? I have literally double his posts, with more content on average in each post per one of his and yet I'm not posting anything of content?

I've found that post count and activity levels are not great indicators of scum alignment. Yes, scum might have more reason to stay out of the spotlight by posting less, but town players might be timid, might not know what to say, might be busy, or might be otherwise unable to post as often as others (due to work, school, medical reasons, etc.).

I mean, maybe I'd understand, but IMD straight up said he likes to make large posts often.

Actually, that's a misrepresentation of what I said, and misrepresentation is scummy if done intentionally. When it's done in defense (i.e. you're trying to get people to look elsewhere because you're on the chopping block) it is even more scummy.

BTW this is semi-related, but if you haven't noticed yet I'm very wordy and I tend to jabber on and on. And I tend to revise and re-read each post I make, both as town or scum, several times before actually posting, so that means that I post less often than I might otherwise technically have had time for. It's something I'm trying to work on, but for now you'll have to forgive me.

As you can see, I specifically said I tend to

not

post as often

because

I tend toward longer posts.

Playing devils advocate, you may have just chosen bad wording. For instance, "he likes to make large posts often" may have been meant as "when he posts, his posts are often long". However, the intent behind your words was an attack on me, so I don't think that would be the case.

VOTE: ILF
Rather than defend yourself, you attacked me and misrepresented my words in process.

And I dunno, but calling someone a "fucking moron" seems pretty awful to me. Maybe not scum indicative, but I still feel like it's uncalled for.

Did this happen? I ISO'd GM and did a search for that phrase (as well as each word individually) and nothing came up. Were you talking about someone else? I assumed GM because she is your vote.

@Josh I believe you were wanting to have a conversation and I was keeping an eye on the thread but nothing came of it. Now it's the weekend so I have plenty of time.

@GM - #405 is a part of why I'd like to discuss stuff and things and whatnot when we are allowed, just fyi.

[I Love Fairies]

Well, Day phases last up to 2 weeks (or more if a deadline extension is needed), so sometimes discussion can be slow. People on this forum come from all over in varying timezones, so it's not uncommon for people to not post for a while. Me, for instance, I have a full time job and really only have time to post late at night (unless I have a moment at lunch to browse on my phone), and some days I don't really have time at all (and other times I have time but I choose to spend it doing other things, though I do try to give these games priority because joining the game implies a commitment to the game).

Also, it is not uncommon for some people to be replaced early on in newbie games. Some people will find the site and say "oh that's neat", sign up, and promptly forget about it, especially because games don't start until several days after you initially sign up. And if they don't have email notifications turned on, new members may not remember for a long time and will be replaced. (Speaking of which, at the bottom left of this page, click "Subscribe to topic" to be notified by email of new replies!)

BTW this is semi-related, but if you haven't noticed yet I'm very wordy and I tend to jabber on and on. And I tend to revise and re-read each post I make, both as town or scum, several times before actually posting, so that means that I post less often than I might otherwise technically have had time for. It's something I'm trying to work on, but for now you'll have to forgive me.

Anyway, expect most of the people to show up over the next day or so. Once I hit the sack tonight, don't expect me until tomorrow night or Friday night because I am never awake enough in the morning for this level of thinking and the rest of the time I'm busy with work. Note that from experience a lot of games move pretty quickly once they get going. I've been in a couple of games that had as many as 6 pages in a 48 hour timespan, though that's not the norm. Just don't expect constant activity throughout the game because that's not going to happen.

Hm, I suppose you're right. I don't know how I got that you claim to post often.

Anyways, I'll respond to the rest later, it's been a really long day and I honestly don't have the energy to deal with much of anything right now.

[I Love Fairies]

Oh yes, I post. In fact, you'll come to learn (and this site will come to learn) that I like to post. A LOT.

I may have thought you posted something that I did.

[I Love Fairies]

^^^ Yeah, I'm never going to get these quotes right.

[goodmorning]

I apologize. I did miss this. I think I was just so upset at your analysis of how bad my posts are that I missed the rest of the post.

Look, like I said, you're good when you take stands. You've just not taken many before now.

I don't think that it's the fear associated with you being an experienced player, I think it's just more that everyone knows your an experienced player. You are, most probably, better than nearly every single other player who has less experience, all people who have more experience do have an edge on others. Scum would recognize this and would try to take out ICs/SEs as fast as they can.

Eh. If Scum is one/both of the SEs then they'd know that current site meta is "kill the IC" and be counting on that WIFOM to get the IC lynched the next day.

And I dunno, but calling someone a "fucking moron" seems pretty awful to me. Maybe not scum indicative, but I still feel like it's uncalled for.

Is it uncalled for? Usually. It's not something I've ever done before. But when someone wants to tell you that you know nothing about the site that you've spent a good deal of time on, and when they present countless strawmen and call them valid arguments against you... well, there's a point when one's morning is no longer quite so good.

Also, how am I more scumlike than IMD even though he has posted less content than me and is more experienced? I have literally double his posts, with more content on average in each post per one of his and yet I'm not posting anything of content? I mean, maybe I'd understand, but IMD straight up said he likes to make large posts often.

1. Because meta, and stop asking me to talk about things that will get me modkilled.
2. ikd has posted content, albeit not in this Day phase and he really needs to remedy that.
3. words=/=content.

@ikd: I called him a fucking moron under the spoiler, which is probably why it didn't come up on Ctrl+f. I can't say that I'm sorry about it.
If we're both still alive here by such time as we are able to discuss such things, then by all means.

[goodmorning]

@ILF: More trying rather than "well I'm not very good so..."

Besides, I think you have some potential but you're not doing much with it atm.

Also, I'd like to know what specifically you don't like about the sns stuff.

[Mr Glidder]

410 is yet another case where IKD's opinion matches mine. That said the "I'm going to go ahead and trust myself." in 408 strikes me as town. Hmmmm.

Also following up on my initial reads GM is tweaking me less now because of the recent exchanges. I think she's town. Unless she's scum with ILF and is coaching, but I don't think that's likely.

[I Love Fairies]

@IMD:I believe what I argued at the beginning is more that I would have killed Goodmorning first chance I got if I was scum. A "newb" by definition is someone who is new. Sure, some people can hit the ground pretty well, but it's not like they get worse in their plays. There are experienced players who also hit the ground running, their extra experience over the newbie who hit the ground running is still powerful and still makes more likely to be a better player.

Yeah? That's sort of what I was arguing. Few think you're scum and you have less posts than me. My point was that actual contribution to the game is not a huge indicator, especially when it comes to people like me who legitimately are trying their hardest.

Oh no. It wasn't bad wording. I was honestly just mistaken.

Aren't you doing the same with your vote on me? Aren't you just attacking me instead of defending yourself?

Also, yes, that did happen. Check the spoiler on GMs post in post#406



@GM: I don't take stands unless I have an actual case. I don't usually have a decent case.

Mmmmm, calling someone a "fucking moron" is always uncalled for, especially in a game. Lighten up.

1. Yeah? I think that's bullshit.
2. And here you are, telling me that I don't post content again. Well shit, I guess my best effort honestly isn't good enough for you. Perhaps I should just blindly vote whatever the majority is voting for.
3. Ahhhhh, yet again, twice in a row! You think that my posts are entirely contentless. Cool. I did try to put content into my posts, but if there isn't any content in them, I don't see the point in trying.


@Mr Glidder: Could you rephrase that sentence with the coaching comment? I'm not entirely sure I understand what you mean.

[I Love Fairies]

@ILF: More trying rather than "well I'm not very good so..."

Besides, I think you have some potential but you're not doing much with it atm.

Also, I'd like to know what specifically you don't like about the sns stuff.

You don't think I'm trying to use this "potential" but I am, and you thinking that I'm not is basically saying that you think I'm bad.

[imkingdavid]

^town. UNVOTE:

[Not_Mafia]

Starting to rethink my townread on Josh.

Due to PoE and the fact that I don't want to turn back on an early game read and lose to that person in Lylo once more I'm going to

VOTE: Mr. Glidder

[Mr Glidder]

I dunno if it's town. Looks kinda like flailing to me, which I think is null.

@Mr Glidder: Could you rephrase that sentence with the coaching comment? I'm not entirely sure I understand what you mean.

In the case where both you and GM are scum (which I don't think is the case), one could call some of GM's actions coaching (that is, the practice of underhandedly giving advice to a scumbuddy).

PEDIT: N_M, care to elaborate?

[goodmorning]

@GM: I don't take stands unless I have an actual case. I don't usually have a decent case.

I'm not talking about dramatic stands. I'm talking about stating and explaining one's opinions.

Mmmmm, calling someone a "fucking moron" is always uncalled for, especially in a game. Lighten up.

My philosophy on this game is that it's a game and much more enjoyable for everyone if we can all be nice to one another. That said, you're being really judge-y and that makes me sad.

1. Yeah? I think that's bullshit.
2. And here you are, telling me that I don't post content again. Well shit, I guess my best effort honestly isn't good enough for you. Perhaps I should just blindly vote whatever the majority is voting for.
3. Ahhhhh, yet again, twice in a row! You think that my posts are entirely contentless. Cool. I did try to put content into my posts, but if there isn't any content in them, I don't see the point in trying.

1. How dull.
2. You're saying you've posted more content than he has. I'm not sure I agree. Does that mean you haven't posted any? No. Quit trying to play the victim.
Perhaps you should blindly vote whomever the majority is voting for? As far as I can tell that's what you're doing.
3. Once more, pointing out that words and content are not the same thing does not mean you haven't posted any content. Your AtE is getting to be unbelievable.

@ILF: More trying rather than "well I'm not very good so..."

Besides, I think you have some potential but you're not doing much with it atm.

Also, I'd like to know what specifically you don't like about the sns stuff.

You don't think I'm trying to use this "potential" but I am, and you thinking that I'm not is basically saying that you think I'm bad.

You may notice that that was 200 posts ago, and I'm trying to point out that you are using it now.

[Josh_B]

Mmmmm, calling someone a "fucking moron" is always uncalled for, especially in a game. Lighten up.

My philosophy on this game is that it's a game and much more enjoyable for everyone if we can all be nice to one another. That said, you're being really judge-y and that makes me sad.

judge-y? Really? What game are you playing? and doesn't that contradict your previous statements concerning ILF's NKA?

[Josh_B]

I want to have that conversation with you that we talked about.

What conversation? I'm game. I'll be checking in when I can from work and can probably give quick answers here and there.

I want to apologize, for not having this conversation, but I've been really hesitant to talk about it and I'm not sure that it would change who we should lynch.