Newbie 1495 (DAY 4) - The One where Everyone got Murdered

[Shinobi]

If I had to take a stab in the dark right now, based on enomis being town, I would say that the scumteam is Mora/Jcozmo.

Jcozmo has spent a bunch of his posts scumtelling like a motherfucker by doing shit like outing his confusion and giving reads with little to no reasoning behind them. Lots of his posts are questions, and after the entire bandwagon built up, he had his vote safely on Xayzeck (who is supertown, by the way) and he just fucked right off for the rest of the day. The dude doesn't really seem to give a shit about the lynch and I'd say that he would be the safest lynch tomorrow.

Mora's filter is scary, like super scary and I think you guys really need to keep a close eye on him. I've already posted some of my thoughts on him and I stand by the fact that none of the other players here would be able to run people in circles the same way he has. His logic is easy enough to follow when you look through his posts, but he's off to the side and pushing wagons while staying out of the spotlight. I'm actually really nervous that he's going to tear the town apart if you don't really pressure him soon, because it feels like the only reason he jumped off the Mala lynch was because I forced it and because it stopped gaining any traction. It's really hard to look past someone that's asking obvious questions and pushing the same targets that everyone else pushed but I'm really worried about this guy. (Xayzeck I'd really really like if you could post a case on him, or try posting a case at all. That would be awesome.)

BBT is town, Mala is town, Wolfy is town (even though that was probably the derpiest hammer I've ever seen) and MM is the cop. I don't see any other conclusions that can be drawn from this wagon other than a Jcozmo/Moratorium scumteam if enomis flips town.

Good luck on day 2 guys.

[Xayzeck]

Like I said, I don't do cases. I'll just talk and ask and vote until I have a good read on people.

At that point though, I may be able to tell you why I'm strongly reading a person, so I guess I could potentially make a case. Just not right now.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

then at others he looks 100% scum.

When does this happen? Is it the quotes that enomis brought up that you are referring to?

It has happened throughout the whole of D1, if you iso my posts you will see where I have picked up on numerous things. I have struggled to read Mora from the beginning and it's starting to get a little frustrating, it also looks like a few other people are in the same boat. The cop could really help us out here, but I want also want him to keep his options open so scum don't know what to expect.

VOTE: enomis

absolutely

only

because I don't want no lynch and I can't see BBT, JCozmo or MM doing it

You stated intent, and hammered like, an hour later?

We've got 5-6 hours till deadline, why did you hammer so quickly?

I think Wolfy already answered this? He said whilst he doesn't want to lynch his 3rd(?) strongest town-read, he feels a no-lynch would be even worse.

BBT, if you felt so strongly about enomis town, why are we only hearing of it now, when he's at L-1? It's not just a townread on enomis either apparently, you seem too have a hardashell townread on him. When did this start?

It started when he started getting accused of being scum. All of his posts are so obviously townie, iso them and have a look through them. Friday and Saturday I was super busy, both day and night and I haven't been able to be as active as I would have liked. By the time I have got on to have a good look through the posts, he somehow had been placed at L-1. I was also waiting for any replies to my 'scum-case' that I built on him.

I would like to say at this point that I still don't think Mala is town. I think she is scum, even more so if Enomis flips town, which I'm pretty sure he will (otherwise, I'm going to look pretty stupid). She picked probably the easiest person to turn a lynch against, one of the replacements was an easy choice, and it happened to be Enomis. I'm looking at a Mora/Mala scum team right now.

I know, it's really hard for me to explain as well because I was so certain that enomis was mafia at the end of the day.

Ultimately I think it boils down to how he handled the Mala/eno lynch. He only unvoted Mala when he realized he wouldn't be able to gain traction...Maybe? I'm still not sure, but that's the only scumplayer I see at this point that makes any sort of sense if enomis is town.

But I still think enomis was scum. He still isn't answering Mora's question even in twilight, when he has nothing else to lose as town. His objective right now should be giving the town as much information as humanly possible, but he

still

isn't doing that, knowing full well that he's going to flip town as soon as the mod locks the thread.

Also I just realized that Mora just sheeped both of his scumreads onto a different lynch.

The bold is interesting because Mora stated even with his 'scummy behaviour' he wasn't gaining any votes. Did he point out this scummy behaviour before somebody else did to save his own back? I don't know, but I really don't like how D1 has played out.

If I get killed N1, please look into Mora/Mala, I feel quite strong that this is where the scum lie, if not both, then at least one of them.

[Wolfy]

VOTE: enomis

absolutely

only

because I don't want no lynch and I can't see BBT, JCozmo or MM doing it

You stated intent, and hammered like, an hour later?

We've got 5-6 hours till deadline, why did you hammer so quickly?

Was going to bed, it was 3am for me (I am in UK) and I wouldn't be back before deadline AND nobody else was prepared/able to do it AND

it needed to be done

. Sorry enomis.

[enomis]

Oh, hi. I don't know what me post this mala thingy will do since i am already hammered and i am cfm town so....

So according to the mora post:
The wolfy,BBT false dilemma part is pretty much null. Although it is bad logic, i find that town sometimes also make cases with bad logic. The problem is i don't know why she persist on it even after people gave reason why the logic is bad. She like didn't even rebut the reasons. She just, no this logic is still good. I believe one of scum is (wolfy,BBT). This is part is abit meh....

point 2 was discussed before.

point 3,4 and 5 are the same thing. She not scumhunting the whole day. She said she's scumhunting but based on gut. I believe she is somehow based on gut? Its just that her reads to me are too off the mark. It seems a little scummy to me. Its like the wolfy,bbt thing which are part of the reads. It is just... Bad. Thats why i was thinking of relying on mora to read her before the lying thing surface but... he doesn't do much.
And since she gave her meta then that she prod dodge or was inactive as scum, i had her leaning scum. This is because her bad reads, i think, are prolly due to her not putting the effort into this game which is the same as inactive. Although she gave her explanation of her being bad day 1 or smth. I was just half-convinced. Then the lying thing came up and i went ah ha. Scum caught.

@Shinobi:

I realised suddenly wolfy is town to you.
Why is he town to you? Or is it you just accepted he is town because everyone is townreading him? Or is it you suddenly gained insight even though we gave the reasons to you and you didn't really believe it. Then when i am lynched, you are somehow enlightened and see the reasons we gave were good.

[Wolfy]

Wolfy is town (even though that was probably the derpiest hammer I've ever seen)

So you preferred no lynch?
BBT didn't want to do it, MM and JCozmo weren't around.
If I hadn't done it we would have no lynched.

[enomis]

Np, wolfy, it was okay, i knew i was going to be lynched once the mala wagon started rescinding and xayzeck and shinobi were on to me like some hound and mora was, whatever lynch is fine. Just lynch someone and i will go with it. And i knew with 1 day left, i probably did not try as hard to steer my lynch off. To be honest, i kinda just was demotivated on the last day and didn't really felt like defending myself the last day since i knew it was 99% that i was gonna be lynched. If there were still like maybe 5 days left, i think maybe i would had put in more effort. But whatever.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Because she's the Wolfy/BBT false dilemma originator (#214)
Because "We can either have a doc or a BP." after a cop claim seems like a scumslip.
Because no reads, no scumhunting all day.
Because wifom arguments and "woe is me I'm terrible Day 1" instead of, you know, participation.
Because now, here, at the cusp of death, suddenly scumhunting, on a target with barely any posts, for bad reasons.

OK, Mora posted this list on Mala. He then specifically asked three people; Shinobi, Enomis and myself to respond to this list. Why did you only choose us three? What about the other players thoughts on your post? I think this may have been a post for scum to assess where town are at and where there current suspicions/thoughts are at the present time before we get to N1 so they can have a discussion about what to do.

After giving his reasons for Mala, he switches his vote to Enomis based on what? Two L-1 votes by two different players? One a mistake from RVS stage. I don't like this at all.

I've only had a quick look into this, I plan to do some further digging as well. The whole Mora/Mala argument where Mala states she is going to ignore Mora for the rest of the game ( but then doesn't?) This would have been a really good way for scum to completely avoid each other and nobody would be able to link the two of them together as a team.

Mala/Mora is looking more and more likely. I'm almost 100% Enomis will flip town.

[enomis]

Oh, yea if i want to predict who the scumteam here and right now, i don't think i could have done it. I have too little information.
But what i can say is,

Xayzeck X mala is not a scumteam.

Actually after rethinking about it, xayzeck may not be scum afterall.
And if i accept that mala is town, since i think she will just survive to endgame this game and unlikely to be lynched.

I am saying,
Mora X Shinobi
Mora X Jcoszmo
Shinobi X Jcozmo.

But i am still iffy about mala. OMG. Thats why i wanted to lynch her day 1 but i got lynched instead.

Thats probably it.

[Xayzeck]

Xayzeck X mala is not a scumteam.

because I defended her?

[enomis]

Xayzeck X mala is not a scumteam.

because I defended her?

No. Because of sometime i read that time but i forgot what it was. What i rmb is the conclusion i came to. So....

[enomis]

Buhahaha, actually i am scum. You caught me guys.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Buhahaha, actually i am scum. You caught me guys.

Haha, you're joking. Right?

[JacobSavage]

Votecount 1.11

1

2

3

4

5

enomis [5]:

Malakittens, Xayzeck, Shinobi, Moratorium, Wolfy

[LYNCH]

Malakittens [2]:

BlueBloodedToffee, enomis

Xayzeck [1]:

Jcozmo

No Lynch [1]:

Mafia Moderator

Not Voting [0]:

With 9 alive it takes

5

to lynch[/i]

Deadline on the 27^rdApril at 0900 BST

((expired on 2014-04-27 09:00:00))

[JacobSavage]

END OF DAY 1

enomis was lynched, he was a

Vanilla Townie

Night 1 starts now, deadline on the 29^rdApril at 1200 BST ((expired on 2014-04-29 12:00:00))

[JacobSavage]

START OF DAY 2

Wolfy was murdered, he was a

Vanilla Townie

Day 2 starts now, deadline on the 13^th May at 2200 BST ((expired on 2014-05-13 22:00:00))

[Moratorium]

Today, I feel like Tyrion Lannister. Were I asked about Eno's death, it might sound something like this (show-spoiling) quote...

Spoiler:

"No, gods no. The world is a better place without him, but I had nothing to do with it. I would like to think, if I were arranging a royal assassination, I'd plan it in such a way that I wouldn't be standing there gawking like a fool when the king died."

I've played Day 1 rather poorly. Not because of the vote necessarily, which I convinced myself was correct. More significantly, I didn't properly forsee the consequences of Eno being town, and that will make me a great burden to town for as long as I remain alive.

Spoiler:

1) I've cast the L-1 vote to vote someone out on the basis of their L-1 votes.

2) I called out a False Dilemma ploy repeatedly, only to probably fall victim to one myself.

3) "Sheeping both my scumreads onto a different lynch"... it's worse than that, Enomis was probably 4th on my list.

=====

So here's a few things I need to address:

Spoiler:

- The vote on Enomis: I'll accept the endgame abuse if it turns out that Malakittens is scum, but for me, the combination of the posting of reads, anger towards my posting style when addressing her, and insane insistence to fall back on meta to explain absolutely everything about her play, even when prompted otherwise, twinged me as being a town response. No-lynch was fast approaching, so I decided Enomis's wagon had enough merit. I thought my reason (slot VCA behaviour) was better than the running theory from Shinobi (Inability to case Mala on anything but lying, which ended up ultimately wrong later in twilight), which was why I asked Eno about my earlier scumreasoning on Mala, but time was getting short. It probably didn't help my frame of mind that I was essentially having to decide between two vote targets with relatively equal camps, where players on both sides were saying "I can't believe you're voting for Player-I'm-Not-Voting, Player-I'm-Voting is obvious!", both apparently likely town.

- BBT's statement on why I only asked three people about my earlier Malascum reasoning is simply that for the first two (BBT and Shinobi), I was looking for contrasting responses, to understand which side (a Mala defender and a Mala... offender) made more sense. The third person, Enomis, I asked later to attempt to see if what Shinobi was saying (that Eno's case on Mala was purely about lying and nothing else substantial) made sense. I didn't want to go "Hey everybody, what do you think?", I was looking to solve specific questions I had about specific people.

- Who was perpetuating the Enomis vs Malakittens vote? Because if they are both town, it would be completely worth scum's time and energy to simply prolong that discussion innocently as we pushed towards deadline. (Note: Shinobi and I certainly did.)

- I believe I'm alive because scum will find it easy to put me up as a shield.

=====

Comments regarding Shinobi:

Spoiler:

- Shinobi's ISO involves building up a case on Wolfy that involved quoting him 9 times (i.e. effort), but that case evaporates within 2 posts (i.e. not real), at which point he breaks out the shotgun and starts peppering Wolfy and Malakittens with votes (i.e. looking for the right wagon), realises how wierd that looks, basically states in thread "I'm allowed to do this, ignore ignore ignore", and then forgets about both of them and votes Enomis (pushing very hard) based on lynching all lynchers of liars (LaLoL (tm)). At face value, it's completely flimsy.

- Jcozmo's stated confusion about Shinobi "sticking his neck out" for Malakittens. I believe Shinobi may have recognized a potential incoming no-lynch, and tried to muddy the water a bit further on the offchance town would flail its way to deadline. This kinda happened, but instead of flailing to no-lynch, we (I) flailed to Enomis.

- Shinobi has made comments that attempt to put me up on some sort of pedestal, with what appears to be the intention of pointing up at me when I make any mistakes. It's blatant Appeal to Experience, and feels like a setup.

*** "I stand by the fact that none of the other players here would be able to run people in circles the same way he has."

*** "Mora, please play more games with me after this omfg."

- "Also if eno actually flips town that I would highly suggest hiplynching Mora." There's really no reason to ever do this. Ever.

- I feel gross about Shinobi's reaction (see my #567 post) when I asked him for Mala reads. I'm looking to work out this Malakittens wagon, so I ask for reasoning on my own reads from earlier in the game, and his response isn't to convince me, it's to attack my reads. When I point this out to him and push for more answers, his next response is just a 100% turnaround like "Oh, shit, yeah dude! I don't need to question what you said anymore!" and there's never any further followup regarding his original questioning of my reads.

- I also don't understand #409 and #413, where he mistakes who I think he's bussing and it causes him to vote for Wolfy? And then unvote Wolfy when I have to explain his bussing target to him? Why didn't he vote for me in post #409 if he thought I was bringing up obviously broken reasoning, and push it for all to see? Instead we get this wierd "I'll show you!" moment, where it appears he thought he'd found a reason to resume wagoning the most townread player...

- "Ultimately I think it boils down to how [Moratorium] handled the Mala/eno lynch. He only unvoted Mala when he realized he wouldn't be able to gain traction..." Your reasoning is faulty (i.e. fraudulant), but I'll answer any questions anyone might have.

=====

Town: Malakittens (meta meta ow my feelings), MafiaModerator (fear-claim)

Ugh: BBT (shorter bbt: "I got a bad feelin' about this"), Xayzeck (playstyle), Jcozmo ("I kind of want someone to put you at L-1")

Scum: Shinobi (see above)

vote: Shinobi

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I agree that your end of D1 play was not very good Mora, you started to come across as pretty scummy. I don't know whether your pointing out your own faults so that nobody else does and you don't have to defend yourself?

You seemed pretty desperate to get a lynch on D1 and I think this is ultimately what caused your bad play. I just have to decide whether you wanted that lynch as scum (jumping wagon to wagon) or whether you genuinely felt it was bad for town to have a no lynch and just wanted a lynch on pretty much anybody.

Shinobi's play did raise a few questions and he went from a solid town-read for me to a null/leaning scum. It's certainly something I am interested in following up throughout D2.

I feel you have missed a very obvious, and quite important question out, why Wolfy? What the hell do scum gain from killing him? I felt sure that you [Mora] or myself was a N1 kill. I don't understand what a Wolfy death achieves?

[Moratorium]

I don't know whether your pointing out your own faults so that nobody else does and you don't have to defend yourself?

If you have questions, please ask.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I would like you to elaborate on your wagon jumping. What were your reasons for this?

Also, you say you 'sheeped two scum-reads' onto different lynches. Can you elaborate on this as well please.

[Jcozmo]

Yeah I was having a few beers after work friday, hence my last couple of posts that day. What a freakin loonie train on Eno that was. Christ. I was reading on my phone and was going to respond but by the time I was home it was done. Not that I didnt see that coming Friday afternoon, it was either Mala or Eno, neither of which I though was scum but Eno wasn't even on the radar for me.

For Day 2, No ones play makes less sense as town than Shinobi's, who was high on my list of scum-possibles well before he went off the deep end. He was "so certain" Eno was scum for basically no valid reasons whatsoever, then after it becomes apparent that isnt the case, he starts lobbing grenades for Day 2 lynch candidates. He can go ahead and attempt to explain in a little more detail how I'm "scumreading like a motherfucker", that should contain some wonderfully thought out reasoning and logic, much like his long-winded reads on Wolfy and Eno.

What I see is he wanted Wolfy lynched because he had a 500-word open and shut case that he IMMEDIATELY abandoned when called out for it, then jumped on and off various wagons of town members until Lynch day.

So I'm inclined to vote Shinobi.

At the same time scums choice to NK Wolfy, not the claimed cop or anyone else, needs to be discussed. IMO a Wolfy lynch points directly at Shinobi, so that seems like a pretty stupid freaking NK if I'm Shinobi.

[Jcozmo]

I feel you have missed a very obvious, and quite important question out, why Wolfy? What the hell do scum gain from killing him? I felt sure that you [Mora] or myself was a N1 kill. I don't understand what a Wolfy death achieves?

Exactly.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I forgot to applaud Mala on a job well done as well. I'm pretty pissed off that the Enomis wagon managed to take off and I haven't forgotten who started it, or who continued it and wanted the lynch. Mala's lynch stood to provide a load of information for town, a load of information that scum would not have liked town to get access to I believe. There was a lot of action from Mala's L-1 and I'm pissed her lynch didn't happen. I'm talking specifically, but not limited to, the vote-switching [Mora] and Shinobi's defence (hesitancy) to vote for her as well.

Shinobi seems a very easy target for D2, and I'm not sure I'm entirely happy with it. Had Mala been lynched, and flipped town (which Mora seems sure of now), then surely Shinobi wouldn't even be considered for a D2 lynch.

Or am I missing something?

@Jcozmo - What do you feel scum gain from killing Wolfy?

[Jcozmo]

@Jcozmo - What do you feel scum gain from killing Wolfy?

There is only one obvious thing they gain IMO - Misdirection

Who was Wolfy on to? No one - No one at all. He voted for half the player in this game, and none for very long or for very pointed reasons. He was a non-threat to scum.

[Shinobi]

Mora, your post is really difficult to take apart so I'm not going to bother quoting it. Here are my thoughts on what you had to say:

No, you aren't alive because you're a burden to the town. You're alive because Wolfy was universally townread (albeit from some for faulty reasoning) and he was not going to be lynched, ever. Stop trying to use the defense of "I wasn't nightkilled oh woe is me," because nightkills are wifomy enough as they are.

Furthermore, what purpose would there be in me defending Mala if I thought she was town?

Especially

if I were actually mafia? It was an act that put me into the spotlight for no adequate reason, other than stopping a wagon on what I thought was a townread and then deflecting that wagon onto a scumread? Furthermore, the town was pretty dead-set on voting Mala off around that time. Why wouldn't I just blend in with the crowd? And why couldn't I just come up with faulty reasoning for lynching Mala with everyone else? Furthermore, why is it that when you unvote Mala you're not "looking for the right wagon?" Your logic looks and feels like a one-way street concerning how we handled this lynch.

And then there's the fact that you used a joke post to try and push me as a lynch. That's twisting my words to the point of ridiculousness.

Actually, after realizing that I had this whole giant post typed out, I'm not even sure I can take what you're saying seriously anymore. If you're only taking my posts at "face value," why should I bother explaining myself to you at all? You're probably going to twist these words in some way as well.

The bottom line is if that was actually a town versus town cross, scum could have done whatever they wanted. I'd suggest looking at the people who were manipulating the vote or staying off to the sides during that lynch, because there was no reason for scum to put themselves in danger at all during that lynch.

I'll address anything I missed later on in the evening, and I'll handle voting when I come back from the gym. See you all in a bit.