Tales of You (Endgame)

[CarbonFiber]

Ok. I want to be correct. It's not enough to be town. It's not enough to be on another town player(s) side. That's not how games are won.

You and Tammy earlier talked about me being arrogant in other games about my reads and not listening to other players' opinions. I think that was an oversimplification but putting that aside look at your own play in this game.

There's nothing fundamentally WRONG with the way apparently town players have some strongly differing reads and concepts of how the game is unfolding. You want to push a consensus lynch today, but there's really no guarantee that a bunch of town players getting together with scum in their midst are going to come up with the right consensus answer. And that's not really what you want. What you want is for town to follow your lynch answer.

I probably should trust your reads more than I do, but there's something off about this game and I'm wondering if it has something to do with the effect of such a large neighborhood. You could all be town. you may very well all be town. But it's creating a gap in the game data.

I agree that there isn't anything wrong with having differing opinions and there is nothing fundamentally wrong with town misreading town. I just don't want those people that I think are town to be lynched especially if I have at least some confidence in that read. And I'm generally protective of players I am townreading and would go to huge lengths to defend them.

I

obviously

want my scumreads lynched but I am still trying to build consensus (or at least that's how I am viewing it from my side). I'm still glad you pointed this out openly because I much prefer that than seeing you bottle it up and it showing through your posts subliminally and me not understanding why you are being cagey/snappish without seeing your side. I'd appreciate it if you point out what of my play you didn't think was helpful or how you think I could change my approach.

I wasn't calling you arrogant in your reads. I just felt that the formal separation of town to work with and not work with feels more like shutting people out which causes more frustration and limits consensus building.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

peregrine do you remember the standard you wanted to hold me/cabd to in the board game mini? It was a fairly recent game, but even over short periods players have variabiity in their effectiveness in any role.

[CarbonFiber]

I like his posting but there is so little of it so I wouldn't bank the game on it. What are you thinking?

He replaced Kagura. How has his posting in the neighborhood changed?

I know. Nacho's posting even in the hydra was very sparse.

He didn't post a lot in the neighborhood more than a few passing comments. Most of his analysis was in-thread. He did post a list of reads a long while ago D1 but they are probably outdated.

[Titan]

Falcon - What did you think of nacho's posting today?

I thought his push on Mastin was good, but not outside anything scum-Nacho can't fake. He makes good points. I like 4213.

The "

I don't think Rancid was scum but Mastin is

" is an unconventional idea that resonated at some level because not many brought up that idea before but it does make sense if Muffin had a misread and Mastin was milking it for everything it's worth (and of course I buy that Mastin wouldn't janitor him). He'd want Muffin to flip town.

His response in 4391 to the 1v1 was pretty awesome as well. He hit the core of what I am having issues with Mastin about. He is thinking past the kind of tells that he would be expected to use.

I like his posting but there is so little of it so I wouldn't bank the game on it. What are you thinking?

Unfortunately, apparently, I've lost all capabilities of even pretending to look like I'm scumhunting this game, so you'll have to excuse the apparent drooling I'm doing in this post instead of giving you thoughts on this game (probably a little passive-aggressive of me right now)

I liked that first post of Nacho's it's why I unvoted him. I like that there's some passion there, but BUT he was able to display it in Wicked at points pretty well though being the mod could make me view things in a different light. However, I really liked his red-text wall about wanting Mastin dead.

Now, do I think he's capable of it, sure. I guess. I watched the way he went after Mina and though I think that he hit the robotic notes very very often in that game, he was able to channel some real passion here and there. I think the most telling aspect of that is that mollie/bert was so dumbfounded by your slot and was mostly scum reading you and not Nacho. Anyway that's how it looked from the outside.

But, my biggie rhymes to nacho were a sign that I was town reading him. It's not completely solid, but I feel pretty decent about it, and I was wondering what level of faking you thought he could do with an inside glimpse of his scum game.

(There's a couple town tells I believe I see in his behavior, and none of the objective scum tells I've picked up. Though I do *think* it's possible for him to fake the town tells, I'm thinking probably not. AT LEAST FOR NOW.)

[Titan]

Which, if AP is town, makes his observation a reasonable one. There's no one else in the game thread you're that amicable with.

Maybe. But after that back-and-forth with Bulbazak in that Micro game, I have an aversion towards interacting with players that I can sense will create a lot of noise if interacted with and too little content. But that was a Micro game and I don't care as much about getting into wall wars in smaller games.

then why are you interacting with me when it looks like I'm not going to produce much useful content toDay?

I have no idea how to answer a question like this or from what context you are bringing it up. I think I at least want all the active players on the same page as me (outside of the neighborhood, this is you, Titan, to some extent PV, and those in the neighborhood, I'm just interacting with them there). I have been trying to sync with the inactives as well when they show up but that's not very often. Like I said, if you are town, I want you on my side.

Ok. I want to be correct. It's not enough to be town. It's not enough to be on another town player(s) side. That's not how games are won.

You and Tammy earlier talked about me being arrogant in other games about my reads and not listening to other players' opinions. I think that was an oversimplification but putting that aside look at your own play in this game.

I dont' know that I've said you're *arrogant* but that you seem to only take seriously the reads of a few subsets of players...those whom you hydra with or who think like you. It's why in Tales of Vesperia I wanted malakittens to discuss reads with you because I thought you'd be more receptive to hearing her reads.

Although when I said you sounded arrogant in board game it was a different tone of arrogance that I was referring to.

[CarbonFiber]

Unfortunately, apparently, I've lost all capabilities of even pretending to look like I'm scumhunting this game, so you'll have to excuse the apparent drooling I'm doing in this post instead of giving you thoughts on this game (probably a little passive-aggressive of me right now)

I liked that first post of Nacho's it's why I unvoted him. I like that there's some passion there, but BUT he was able to display it in Wicked at points pretty well though being the mod could make me view things in a different light. However, I really liked his red-text wall about wanting Mastin dead.

Now, do I think he's capable of it, sure. I guess. I watched the way he went after Mina and though I think that he hit the robotic notes very very often in that game, he was able to channel some real passion here and there. I think the most telling aspect of that is that mollie/bert was so dumbfounded by your slot and was mostly scum reading you and not Nacho. Anyway that's how it looked from the outside.

But, my biggie rhymes to nacho were a sign that I was town reading him. It's not completely solid, but I feel pretty decent about it, and I was wondering what level of faking you thought he could do with an inside glimpse of his scum game.

(There's a couple town tells I believe I see in his behavior, and none of the objective scum tells I've picked up. Though I do *think* it's possible for him to fake the town tells, I'm thinking probably not. AT LEAST FOR NOW.)

What I got from my inside glimpse is that Nacho as scum focusses more on looking town early game and doing what he would do as town and changing that slowly later on and opportunistically planning pushes to serve a scum agenda. I remembered that he asked me not to push on Mina early because she had an analytical and eloquent playstyle that I would not dislike if I had been town and that my early pushes felt unnatural for that reason and I'd more naturally scumread people like Chamber/CES if I was town because of a more cagey/close-to-the-chest playstyle.

His later push on Mina for not scumreading him based on the earlier push felt opportunistic and didn't really resonate (but I was viewing it through a lens of knowing he was scum so I don't know how well I would catch it if I were town).

The biggest reason I questioned his affiliation in NY169 was that everything he did felt unnaturally "right" and all the reasons he gave for his big reads list were the reasons that were deemed good by popular consensus. I'm not sure how much you followed it after you got nk'd but he townread me for townreading Ffery for attacking him because we had both agreed that it was valid. His reads were based on popular reasons. Here, he feels more like the brazen, doesn't-give-a-crap about popular consensus type Nacho I saw in Z-Mafia.

[PeregrineV]

Regarding 4448-
I never thought of it that way.
Tammy join date Jan 2012.
Good vs Evil game start Feb 2012.

Good v Evil- 26 player large theme game (28 distinct, 42 total with replacements) with 2 town and 2 scum factions, and special mechanics that inhibited town PRs from functioning.
This game- 17 player Upick large theme game (27 distinct, 29 total with replacements) with White Flag mechanic

Good v Evil - examples given, play based on first month on site
This game- Tammy is feeling lost (why?)(what does this mean?)

Spoiler: Good v Evil Tammy- transparency of thought process

Subject: Good vs Evil, Law vs Chaos Reboot - Game Over, Good wins

@Greenknight - Why would scum love early policy lynches? They don't kill the ones who don't contribute/are VI's because they want them around. They nightkill the players who are actually playing the game, and leave the distractions alive to hide behind/manipulate in the end.

Because everyone on a policy lynch is essentially making the same argument, it leaves very few trails in the voting compared to a regular lynch where people have to justify why they personally think the target is scummy. Since the way in which people pursue their targets is a primary scum hunting resource, that's a lot of information lost from a town perspective at the point in the game where town has the least information.

Since you mentioned Trekker in this context, I think he is actually scummy due to the extreme non-interactivity of his posts to date and wouldn't really be a policy lynch...

Why did you feel the need to mention "when I flip town" in your argument with Zdenek? Do you think it's at all likely that you will be lynched today?

That was in response to the increasingly strange conversation I've been having with Zdenek in which his logic keeps falling apart. He first claimed that I was being aggressively unhelpful in asking the questions I was asking, which he pointed out wasn't necessarily scummy, but I was asking too many in 439. He then made the wtf claim that I was defending people by asking the questions I was asking so that I would look good in the case of their mislynch and to reduce pressure by other people. He then made an even bigger wtf claim in 485 that I was redirecting suspicion in one and getting someone else to make a case on someone so I wouldn't have to.

In 493, he said that questions have limited use and it's best to just tell people that they're being scummy. When I told him that wasn't my play style, that I ask completely straightforward questions in order to interact with people, he claimed in 570 that he would still think asking pointless questions was scummy even if I flipped town.

Never mind the fact that if I'm doing what he's accusing me of doing that my questions can not be pointless in nature. Because if I am defending someone or attempting to reduce pressure or direct suspicion or whatever other crap he's divined in my questions, they by their very nature would have a point. They cannot both be pointless and at the same time do something. So, for him to claim that they are pointless, he has to admit that they are not doing what he has accused me of.

Beyond that this sentiment is ridiculous. It prompted MoI in 656 to tell him he's either terrible town or scum to stand by the claim that he'll still consider the questions scummy even if I flip town. He tried to substantiate his logical fallacy by using as evidence a statement by LMP in 660 in which he said that just because an innocent does something, in this case word choice, it doesn't mean it's not a scum tell.

My response to him was an explanation for why his argument falls apart and why he's wrong in his thinking. I included when I flip innocent, because it was the premise for the argument anyway.

Spoiler: this game

Is it normal for Titan to manipulate things with emotional blackmail?

I'm not seeing a town attitude towards demanding people prove they are town for the benefit of their mental state. Seems both forced and trying to stay in the upper hand.

Okay now that I have a quick break, I can respond.

WTF? No seriously, wtf.

I'd like for you to point out the demand, first of all, I made for one slot, not people, one slot, that I really need to be reading as town right now. Yeah, I really need to read them earlier, life will be better for me and them for me not to go onto paranoid flip outs where I'm jumping ship and begging Nati for rum and a place on their ship while I restore my sanity. I doubt very very seriously that either head of that hydra viewed my early reach out to them as me "emotionally blackmailing" them.

Okay well to start. He over explained how he lost and didn't have the password to his hydra. Those things happen, why the need for the explanation?

Then he lets us know he did, in fact, get his role pm. I'm not sure why that pinged me, but it did.

His response to CarbonFiber that if he didn't see SSK was town then he's scum because he knew SSK was town before he got his role pm. Read off.

His comment on Arthur's obvious joke and self-vote being scummy is lolwtf. Then he called my post confrontational with Nacho and Bork. I wasn't partaking in friendly banter, nor was I pretending to. I wasn't even scum hunting them in that post or being confrontational, nor was I pretending to. It was a simple request or a plea for them to make the alignment of their slot clear so I wouldn't spend my time worrying about them. That he misinterpreted that looks willful, even more so than Lord Business, who doesn't know that we play together often and so there might be a reason why I want to not have to worry about them. He was in Tales of Vesperia too, in which I mislynched Nacho due to incorrectly reading him until it was too late to do anything about it and there were several head butts between Bork's hydra and I until I recognized that they were in fact the vig who's shot I controlled.

He then says he won't even take Nacho's word for his read on me based on me saying Nacho will recognize I'm town from my first post. I don't think for one second that he disrespects Nacho's ability in mafia so much that he thinks that Nacho would be swayed by me saying he'll see I'm town from my first post and call me town if he didn't feel it. I mean you only have to look at Too Many Heads to see that Nacho would absolutely come after me if he thought I was scum. He's pretty much the second best person able to read me on this site, and sure I can fool him sometimes for a little while, but it's not from me saying he'll read me as town from my first post. He'll read me as town from my first post because he'll probably recognize the tone there and he'll just be even more convinced as the game goes on. And I don't believe for one second that he actually believes my first post was emotional blackmail. He's played in enough games with me, as town and as scum, to not even entertain that. So, it's complete BS.

His reads don't feel real.

MAC - He doesn't feel like he's actually trying to figure out the game though he feels like he's posturing the game. The reason why I said it's not omgus because in the last game, in which he was in!, the entire scum team came after me and when I identified their motivations as scum motivation they discredited me by saying that I was just omgusing.

AND you were in Attack on Titan AND Too Many Heads. Muffin can't really read me. He's the one who became less convinced I was scum in Too Many Heads while Nati was convinced I was scum. In Attack on Titan when Muffin was scum hunting me in the neighborhood and we got into our fight, Nati replaced in saw our interactions and declared me confirmed town and claimed we were now masons.

You're appealing to buzzword. If that was Nati to actually draw a link to a game in which he read me correctly and ignoring every reason why I'm town here is appalling. If that's a muffin vote, then okay, muffin can't really read me. But Nati can.

I never said one head is reasonable; I didn't make any qualifications for either head other than the Nati head can read me and the muffin head can't.

@Tammy, I read your ISO more closely. I actually think you are pretty town now. So, the reason I didn't initially have a strong townread was that your post 53 felt a little aggressive because I assume Nacho would probably town himself up regardless but I do like the follow up in 74 asking ffery what she thought of Bork. I like the suspicion of me as well since you never read me wrong before, I assumed scum-you would townread me to keep it consistent. Post 126 looked really town as well and 129 mirrored my thoughts and the rest of your ISO feels town as well. My mistake.

What do you think of NotScience's posts so far?

~ F-16

Are you and mastin writing from the same play book? There's just no way that can be read as aggressive. I don't see how you thought that. I think I prefer the emotional blackmail accusation because that at least gets to how I felt when I wrote that post. Why would you think that nacho would town himself up right away and why were you just writing nacho off as town before either head had posted? You know that I'm pretty decent at reading nacho, though I read him wrong for a bit recently when I should have recognized he was town. I just don't see how people who know me and know how I approach mafia don't see that as a plea for people I need to have sorted. What I find as somewhat amusing is the people I directed that post to, the people who it was written for, didn't have a problem with it but other people are like ohyoudint! And nacho who can read me better than almost anyone else on this site didn't see anything wrong with it and nacho would love to catch me and lynch me if I were scum, so I'm just kinda thrown here.

I just don't know what to think of you now. I expected you to pose some questions to me and try to figure out my alignment, not read my iso and go "my bad". It feels like appeasement. I might just need to take a step back though, I feel like I've already been kicked off balance and it feels like it was done on purpose again.

I have an early townread on notscience. I liked a whole lot that he wanted to sort me early. His aggressiveness and stance that he's obvtown fits his town games that I'm aware of. Unless he's changed his scum meta it's not so aggressive and involved. I also liked Brian skies post.

In my opinion, Tammy the new player was much easier to see her hunting for scum, whereas this Tammy has a new style that is less easier to see her hunting for scum.

That was hard to type, but should be considered "nice" or at least neutral.

[PeregrineV]

peregrine do you remember the standard you wanted to hold me/cabd to in the board game mini? It was a fairly recent game, but even over short periods players have variabiity in their effectiveness in any role.

I know this, and try to allow for it. If I can see how you think, then I can get a read, even if I disagree with yours. When that is denied me, then I ask "why?"

[Titan]

Game that just ended. In which I was town. So was GASP Pere. I'm more engaged here than there.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go

But, sure let's compare me to a game two years ago.

I mean maybe you should just make an MD thread. Tammy, you were a much better player when you were a newbie to the site, what happened to you?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

[PeregrineV]

I like his posting but there is so little of it so I wouldn't bank the game on it. What are you thinking?

He replaced Kagura. How has his posting in the neighborhood changed?

I know. Nacho's posting even in the hydra was very sparse.

He didn't post a lot in the neighborhood more than a few passing comments. Most of his analysis was in-thread. He did post a list of reads a long while ago D1 but they are probably outdated.

Ahh. I thought they stayed open (as in you guys could talk now), but guessing not.

*sigh*

[Titan]

This game is white flag?

[CarbonFiber]

Pere, no the neighborhood is still open and we can talk now. I'm saying Nacho's posting was sporadic. I didn't initially like his posts but townread him due to Bork but I like his most recent ones in thread.

[Titan]

ALTERNATE FUCKING UNIVERSES.

SEE.

SEE.

[PeregrineV]

This game is white flag?

No my confusion. There are 4 mafia and 13 town, and no special mechanics whatsoever aside from those provided by roles.

[PeregrineV]

Pere, no the neighborhood is still open and we can talk now. I'm saying Nacho's posting was sporadic. I didn't initially like his posts but townread him due to Bork but I like his most recent ones in thread.

Got it.

[PeregrineV]

@Nacho-

Would like to see a summary of your current reads along with a brief reason for each.

Also, thoughts on the neighborhood you are in.

[PeregrineV]

@Carbon-

Also going to look back at your Cupcake=town reason. Because, yeah.

[Titan]

Regarding 4448-
I never thought of it that way.
Tammy join date Jan 2012.
Good vs Evil game start Feb 2012.

Good v Evil- 26 player large theme game (28 distinct, 42 total with replacements) with 2 town and 2 scum factions, and special mechanics that inhibited town PRs from functioning.
This game- 17 player Upick large theme game (27 distinct, 29 total with replacements) with White Flag mechanic

Good v Evil - examples given, play based on first month on site
This game- Tammy is feeling lost (why?)(what does this mean?)

Spoiler: Good v Evil Tammy- transparency of thought process

Subject: Good vs Evil, Law vs Chaos Reboot - Game Over, Good wins

@Greenknight - Why would scum love early policy lynches? They don't kill the ones who don't contribute/are VI's because they want them around. They nightkill the players who are actually playing the game, and leave the distractions alive to hide behind/manipulate in the end.

Because everyone on a policy lynch is essentially making the same argument, it leaves very few trails in the voting compared to a regular lynch where people have to justify why they personally think the target is scummy. Since the way in which people pursue their targets is a primary scum hunting resource, that's a lot of information lost from a town perspective at the point in the game where town has the least information.

Since you mentioned Trekker in this context, I think he is actually scummy due to the extreme non-interactivity of his posts to date and wouldn't really be a policy lynch...

Why did you feel the need to mention "when I flip town" in your argument with Zdenek? Do you think it's at all likely that you will be lynched today?

That was in response to the increasingly strange conversation I've been having with Zdenek in which his logic keeps falling apart. He first claimed that I was being aggressively unhelpful in asking the questions I was asking, which he pointed out wasn't necessarily scummy, but I was asking too many in 439. He then made the wtf claim that I was defending people by asking the questions I was asking so that I would look good in the case of their mislynch and to reduce pressure by other people. He then made an even bigger wtf claim in 485 that I was redirecting suspicion in one and getting someone else to make a case on someone so I wouldn't have to.

In 493, he said that questions have limited use and it's best to just tell people that they're being scummy. When I told him that wasn't my play style, that I ask completely straightforward questions in order to interact with people, he claimed in 570 that he would still think asking pointless questions was scummy even if I flipped town.

Never mind the fact that if I'm doing what he's accusing me of doing that my questions can not be pointless in nature. Because if I am defending someone or attempting to reduce pressure or direct suspicion or whatever other crap he's divined in my questions, they by their very nature would have a point. They cannot both be pointless and at the same time do something. So, for him to claim that they are pointless, he has to admit that they are not doing what he has accused me of.

Beyond that this sentiment is ridiculous. It prompted MoI in 656 to tell him he's either terrible town or scum to stand by the claim that he'll still consider the questions scummy even if I flip town. He tried to substantiate his logical fallacy by using as evidence a statement by LMP in 660 in which he said that just because an innocent does something, in this case word choice, it doesn't mean it's not a scum tell.

My response to him was an explanation for why his argument falls apart and why he's wrong in his thinking. I included when I flip innocent, because it was the premise for the argument anyway.

Spoiler: this game

Is it normal for Titan to manipulate things with emotional blackmail?

I'm not seeing a town attitude towards demanding people prove they are town for the benefit of their mental state. Seems both forced and trying to stay in the upper hand.

Okay now that I have a quick break, I can respond.

WTF? No seriously, wtf.

I'd like for you to point out the demand, first of all, I made for one slot, not people, one slot, that I really need to be reading as town right now. Yeah, I really need to read them earlier, life will be better for me and them for me not to go onto paranoid flip outs where I'm jumping ship and begging Nati for rum and a place on their ship while I restore my sanity. I doubt very very seriously that either head of that hydra viewed my early reach out to them as me "emotionally blackmailing" them.

Okay well to start. He over explained how he lost and didn't have the password to his hydra. Those things happen, why the need for the explanation?

Then he lets us know he did, in fact, get his role pm. I'm not sure why that pinged me, but it did.

His response to CarbonFiber that if he didn't see SSK was town then he's scum because he knew SSK was town before he got his role pm. Read off.

His comment on Arthur's obvious joke and self-vote being scummy is lolwtf. Then he called my post confrontational with Nacho and Bork. I wasn't partaking in friendly banter, nor was I pretending to. I wasn't even scum hunting them in that post or being confrontational, nor was I pretending to. It was a simple request or a plea for them to make the alignment of their slot clear so I wouldn't spend my time worrying about them. That he misinterpreted that looks willful, even more so than Lord Business, who doesn't know that we play together often and so there might be a reason why I want to not have to worry about them. He was in Tales of Vesperia too, in which I mislynched Nacho due to incorrectly reading him until it was too late to do anything about it and there were several head butts between Bork's hydra and I until I recognized that they were in fact the vig who's shot I controlled.

He then says he won't even take Nacho's word for his read on me based on me saying Nacho will recognize I'm town from my first post. I don't think for one second that he disrespects Nacho's ability in mafia so much that he thinks that Nacho would be swayed by me saying he'll see I'm town from my first post and call me town if he didn't feel it. I mean you only have to look at Too Many Heads to see that Nacho would absolutely come after me if he thought I was scum. He's pretty much the second best person able to read me on this site, and sure I can fool him sometimes for a little while, but it's not from me saying he'll read me as town from my first post. He'll read me as town from my first post because he'll probably recognize the tone there and he'll just be even more convinced as the game goes on. And I don't believe for one second that he actually believes my first post was emotional blackmail. He's played in enough games with me, as town and as scum, to not even entertain that. So, it's complete BS.

His reads don't feel real.

MAC - He doesn't feel like he's actually trying to figure out the game though he feels like he's posturing the game. The reason why I said it's not omgus because in the last game, in which he was in!, the entire scum team came after me and when I identified their motivations as scum motivation they discredited me by saying that I was just omgusing.

AND you were in Attack on Titan AND Too Many Heads. Muffin can't really read me. He's the one who became less convinced I was scum in Too Many Heads while Nati was convinced I was scum. In Attack on Titan when Muffin was scum hunting me in the neighborhood and we got into our fight, Nati replaced in saw our interactions and declared me confirmed town and claimed we were now masons.

You're appealing to buzzword. If that was Nati to actually draw a link to a game in which he read me correctly and ignoring every reason why I'm town here is appalling. If that's a muffin vote, then okay, muffin can't really read me. But Nati can.

I never said one head is reasonable; I didn't make any qualifications for either head other than the Nati head can read me and the muffin head can't.

@Tammy, I read your ISO more closely. I actually think you are pretty town now. So, the reason I didn't initially have a strong townread was that your post 53 felt a little aggressive because I assume Nacho would probably town himself up regardless but I do like the follow up in 74 asking ffery what she thought of Bork. I like the suspicion of me as well since you never read me wrong before, I assumed scum-you would townread me to keep it consistent. Post 126 looked really town as well and 129 mirrored my thoughts and the rest of your ISO feels town as well. My mistake.

What do you think of NotScience's posts so far?

~ F-16

Are you and mastin writing from the same play book? There's just no way that can be read as aggressive. I don't see how you thought that. I think I prefer the emotional blackmail accusation because that at least gets to how I felt when I wrote that post. Why would you think that nacho would town himself up right away and why were you just writing nacho off as town before either head had posted? You know that I'm pretty decent at reading nacho, though I read him wrong for a bit recently when I should have recognized he was town. I just don't see how people who know me and know how I approach mafia don't see that as a plea for people I need to have sorted. What I find as somewhat amusing is the people I directed that post to, the people who it was written for, didn't have a problem with it but other people are like ohyoudint! And nacho who can read me better than almost anyone else on this site didn't see anything wrong with it and nacho would love to catch me and lynch me if I were scum, so I'm just kinda thrown here.

I just don't know what to think of you now. I expected you to pose some questions to me and try to figure out my alignment, not read my iso and go "my bad". It feels like appeasement. I might just need to take a step back though, I feel like I've already been kicked off balance and it feels like it was done on purpose again.

I have an early townread on notscience. I liked a whole lot that he wanted to sort me early. His aggressiveness and stance that he's obvtown fits his town games that I'm aware of. Unless he's changed his scum meta it's not so aggressive and involved. I also liked Brian skies post.

In my opinion, Tammy the new player was much easier to see her hunting for scum, whereas this Tammy has a new style that is less easier to see her hunting for scum.

That was hard to type, but should be considered "nice" or at least neutral.

Why are you acting like you haven't consistently played with me over the course of the past two years? Why are you acting like you played with me in GvE, stopped playing, and suddenly started in this game?

Because from where I'm standing, you've seen the various iterations of my play, and you're acting as if you haven't. I can't figure out why that is.

What I can figure out is that you know, from the experience you damn well have, that needling me results in good distractions, and it feels to me like you're feeding that.

[PeregrineV]

@Carbon-

Also going to look back at your Cupcake=town reason. Because, yeah.

OK found it.

Okay, so I read the wall (skimmed a few parts), I am not going to do a piece by piece response of everything in it although I'll post general thoughts on stuff that's useful.

Explanation of my read on Cupcake for PeregrineV

:

Here's the baseline I have for Katsuki (Cupcake) as scum: Katsuki is very good at predicting the ebb and flow of wagons. He can generally tell when a wagon takes off and when it won't. For the most part, he knows where the town herd will go before it actually happens. It is a useful skill as scum and Katsuki as scum is known to go with the flow or precede the flow if he can predict it. See Anything Goes which you were in for example. I also have played a game with Katsuki as scum (Death Note) where I noticed the same tendencies.

His play here is far away from his scum play and actually matches the against the grain nature of his town play. I'd expect scum-Cupcake to vote us, or the Fox and the Hound at various points but he doesn't. He resolutely stayed on MastinSSK for the entire time despite signs of the movement of the town herd in various directions. I didn't want to reveal this at first because if he was scum, I'd rather he not know how I was reading him until I got enough data to make a determination. It is nearly the end of D1 and I am confident at this point that he is showing no inclination to move with the herd (arguably, his vote is in Mastin who was at times the biggest wagon BUT he kept his vote on Mastin when lots of people townread him and other wagons were popping). He is playing

nothing

like he was in Anything Goes, do you agree?

My "scum are among" group isn't a list of players that I am scumreading but rather a list of players that I wasn't townreading. Leftovers. Null and scum reads. All POE'd from my town pile. I at first didn't want to add Katsuki to my town pile because I had too little info. But now I am happy to do it. And yeah, he didn't post anything other than trolly stuff but it was more of the lack of opportunistic wagon hopping that has him as town. I had a feeling he was town even towards the beginning but it wasn't strong and I was holding off waiting to see if he does anything scummy. He didn't.

~ F-16

Perhaps you can offer a word to CupcakePanda that if hydras aren't his thing, another player may be better suited for the position he currently occupies.

[Titan]

Peregrinnies - why were you surprised at me being snarky???

[PeregrineV]

Regarding 4448-
I never thought of it that way.
Tammy join date Jan 2012.
Good vs Evil game start Feb 2012.

Good v Evil- 26 player large theme game (28 distinct, 42 total with replacements) with 2 town and 2 scum factions, and special mechanics that inhibited town PRs from functioning.
This game- 17 player Upick large theme game (27 distinct, 29 total with replacements) with White Flag mechanic

Good v Evil - examples given, play based on first month on site
This game- Tammy is feeling lost (why?)(what does this mean?)

Spoiler: Good v Evil Tammy- transparency of thought process

Subject: Good vs Evil, Law vs Chaos Reboot - Game Over, Good wins

@Greenknight - Why would scum love early policy lynches? They don't kill the ones who don't contribute/are VI's because they want them around. They nightkill the players who are actually playing the game, and leave the distractions alive to hide behind/manipulate in the end.

Because everyone on a policy lynch is essentially making the same argument, it leaves very few trails in the voting compared to a regular lynch where people have to justify why they personally think the target is scummy. Since the way in which people pursue their targets is a primary scum hunting resource, that's a lot of information lost from a town perspective at the point in the game where town has the least information.

Since you mentioned Trekker in this context, I think he is actually scummy due to the extreme non-interactivity of his posts to date and wouldn't really be a policy lynch...

Why did you feel the need to mention "when I flip town" in your argument with Zdenek? Do you think it's at all likely that you will be lynched today?

That was in response to the increasingly strange conversation I've been having with Zdenek in which his logic keeps falling apart. He first claimed that I was being aggressively unhelpful in asking the questions I was asking, which he pointed out wasn't necessarily scummy, but I was asking too many in 439. He then made the wtf claim that I was defending people by asking the questions I was asking so that I would look good in the case of their mislynch and to reduce pressure by other people. He then made an even bigger wtf claim in 485 that I was redirecting suspicion in one and getting someone else to make a case on someone so I wouldn't have to.

In 493, he said that questions have limited use and it's best to just tell people that they're being scummy. When I told him that wasn't my play style, that I ask completely straightforward questions in order to interact with people, he claimed in 570 that he would still think asking pointless questions was scummy even if I flipped town.

Never mind the fact that if I'm doing what he's accusing me of doing that my questions can not be pointless in nature. Because if I am defending someone or attempting to reduce pressure or direct suspicion or whatever other crap he's divined in my questions, they by their very nature would have a point. They cannot both be pointless and at the same time do something. So, for him to claim that they are pointless, he has to admit that they are not doing what he has accused me of.

Beyond that this sentiment is ridiculous. It prompted MoI in 656 to tell him he's either terrible town or scum to stand by the claim that he'll still consider the questions scummy even if I flip town. He tried to substantiate his logical fallacy by using as evidence a statement by LMP in 660 in which he said that just because an innocent does something, in this case word choice, it doesn't mean it's not a scum tell.

My response to him was an explanation for why his argument falls apart and why he's wrong in his thinking. I included when I flip innocent, because it was the premise for the argument anyway.

Spoiler: this game

Is it normal for Titan to manipulate things with emotional blackmail?

I'm not seeing a town attitude towards demanding people prove they are town for the benefit of their mental state. Seems both forced and trying to stay in the upper hand.

Okay now that I have a quick break, I can respond.

WTF? No seriously, wtf.

I'd like for you to point out the demand, first of all, I made for one slot, not people, one slot, that I really need to be reading as town right now. Yeah, I really need to read them earlier, life will be better for me and them for me not to go onto paranoid flip outs where I'm jumping ship and begging Nati for rum and a place on their ship while I restore my sanity. I doubt very very seriously that either head of that hydra viewed my early reach out to them as me "emotionally blackmailing" them.

Okay well to start. He over explained how he lost and didn't have the password to his hydra. Those things happen, why the need for the explanation?

Then he lets us know he did, in fact, get his role pm. I'm not sure why that pinged me, but it did.

His response to CarbonFiber that if he didn't see SSK was town then he's scum because he knew SSK was town before he got his role pm. Read off.

His comment on Arthur's obvious joke and self-vote being scummy is lolwtf. Then he called my post confrontational with Nacho and Bork. I wasn't partaking in friendly banter, nor was I pretending to. I wasn't even scum hunting them in that post or being confrontational, nor was I pretending to. It was a simple request or a plea for them to make the alignment of their slot clear so I wouldn't spend my time worrying about them. That he misinterpreted that looks willful, even more so than Lord Business, who doesn't know that we play together often and so there might be a reason why I want to not have to worry about them. He was in Tales of Vesperia too, in which I mislynched Nacho due to incorrectly reading him until it was too late to do anything about it and there were several head butts between Bork's hydra and I until I recognized that they were in fact the vig who's shot I controlled.

He then says he won't even take Nacho's word for his read on me based on me saying Nacho will recognize I'm town from my first post. I don't think for one second that he disrespects Nacho's ability in mafia so much that he thinks that Nacho would be swayed by me saying he'll see I'm town from my first post and call me town if he didn't feel it. I mean you only have to look at Too Many Heads to see that Nacho would absolutely come after me if he thought I was scum. He's pretty much the second best person able to read me on this site, and sure I can fool him sometimes for a little while, but it's not from me saying he'll read me as town from my first post. He'll read me as town from my first post because he'll probably recognize the tone there and he'll just be even more convinced as the game goes on. And I don't believe for one second that he actually believes my first post was emotional blackmail. He's played in enough games with me, as town and as scum, to not even entertain that. So, it's complete BS.

His reads don't feel real.

MAC - He doesn't feel like he's actually trying to figure out the game though he feels like he's posturing the game. The reason why I said it's not omgus because in the last game, in which he was in!, the entire scum team came after me and when I identified their motivations as scum motivation they discredited me by saying that I was just omgusing.

AND you were in Attack on Titan AND Too Many Heads. Muffin can't really read me. He's the one who became less convinced I was scum in Too Many Heads while Nati was convinced I was scum. In Attack on Titan when Muffin was scum hunting me in the neighborhood and we got into our fight, Nati replaced in saw our interactions and declared me confirmed town and claimed we were now masons.

You're appealing to buzzword. If that was Nati to actually draw a link to a game in which he read me correctly and ignoring every reason why I'm town here is appalling. If that's a muffin vote, then okay, muffin can't really read me. But Nati can.

I never said one head is reasonable; I didn't make any qualifications for either head other than the Nati head can read me and the muffin head can't.

@Tammy, I read your ISO more closely. I actually think you are pretty town now. So, the reason I didn't initially have a strong townread was that your post 53 felt a little aggressive because I assume Nacho would probably town himself up regardless but I do like the follow up in 74 asking ffery what she thought of Bork. I like the suspicion of me as well since you never read me wrong before, I assumed scum-you would townread me to keep it consistent. Post 126 looked really town as well and 129 mirrored my thoughts and the rest of your ISO feels town as well. My mistake.

What do you think of NotScience's posts so far?

~ F-16

Are you and mastin writing from the same play book? There's just no way that can be read as aggressive. I don't see how you thought that. I think I prefer the emotional blackmail accusation because that at least gets to how I felt when I wrote that post. Why would you think that nacho would town himself up right away and why were you just writing nacho off as town before either head had posted? You know that I'm pretty decent at reading nacho, though I read him wrong for a bit recently when I should have recognized he was town. I just don't see how people who know me and know how I approach mafia don't see that as a plea for people I need to have sorted. What I find as somewhat amusing is the people I directed that post to, the people who it was written for, didn't have a problem with it but other people are like ohyoudint! And nacho who can read me better than almost anyone else on this site didn't see anything wrong with it and nacho would love to catch me and lynch me if I were scum, so I'm just kinda thrown here.

I just don't know what to think of you now. I expected you to pose some questions to me and try to figure out my alignment, not read my iso and go "my bad". It feels like appeasement. I might just need to take a step back though, I feel like I've already been kicked off balance and it feels like it was done on purpose again.

I have an early townread on notscience. I liked a whole lot that he wanted to sort me early. His aggressiveness and stance that he's obvtown fits his town games that I'm aware of. Unless he's changed his scum meta it's not so aggressive and involved. I also liked Brian skies post.

In my opinion, Tammy the new player was much easier to see her hunting for scum, whereas this Tammy has a new style that is less easier to see her hunting for scum.

That was hard to type, but should be considered "nice" or at least neutral.

Why are you acting like you haven't consistently played with me over the course of the past two years? Why are you acting like you played with me in GvE, stopped playing, and suddenly started in this game?

Because from where I'm standing, you've seen the various iterations of my play, and you're acting as if you haven't. I can't figure out why that is.

What I can figure out is that you know, from the experience you damn well have, that needling me results in good distractions, and it feels to me like you're feeding that.

We haven't. We had a few early games together, then sporadic ones, but I don't think you've been out of a hydra in over a year (at least in a game with me). That means I can't count those without devoting more time than I have to deciphering your play from the other head.

The last hydra game I townread your hydra (Waffles Somethington) and you turned out to be scum. My bad, I'll stick to less playstyle, more content-based.

No, you've pretty much said it's just you, so I'm looking for just-Tammy play, not hydra-head Tammy play. And I'm looking for just-Tammy content as well as town-just-Tammy playstyle (transparency of thought process in the sumhunting process).

[PeregrineV]

Peregrinnies - why were you surprised at me being snarky???

There's no reason for it. I'm asking questions because I want answers. You know that, why would town-you snark on me?

[Titan]

So we didn't play heroes of comedy together?
marketplace 2?
hpatpl?
marketplace 3?
board games?
gundam seed?
holy shit if you remember me from anything goes and have anything approximating a scum read on me here you really really really don't know how to meta at all and should stop?

I mean because then you should at least understand my playstyle varies and not be just comparing it to some two-year old game.

[Titan]

Peregrinnies - why were you surprised at me being snarky???

There's no reason for it. I'm asking questions because I want answers. You know that, why would town-you snark on me?

I already answered this. and this is why discussing things with you is a complete waste of time and is problematic because you don't fucking listen when anyone tells you anything. You annoyed me. You're first very first accusation was woefully incorrect. I pointed it out because it was not only completely incorrect but fucking stupid. You acted all high and mighty by going all gotcha by posting everything I had mentioned about the neighborhood when congratufuckinglations I had mentinoned the neighborhood more than fucking once though you said I didn't. You continued to ask me stupid fucking questions.

You are reminding me of hte board game when you asked the most moronic questions ever regarding our "role fishing" and refused to actually accept our answers.

This is a repeating fucking theme in every fucking game. If you could just for once fucking listen to a goddamn answer someone gives you.

you know what. i'm stepping away.

OHM. OHM. OHM.

[Titan]