Newbie 1495 (DAY 4) - The One where Everyone got Murdered

[Moratorium]

In Post 539 Xayzeck says he has Jcoz as null town, in Post 728 he quotes one of Jcozs posts and calls it pretty town, in Post 728 he has no good read D1 but towny D2 but in Post 743 Jcoz is her 2nd strongest scum read but in Post 799 he says Jcozs reaction doesn’t make sense as scum and then flips around again in Post 826 he says BBT and Jcoz have jumpy interactions and then suddenly in Post 851 he puts Jcoz to L-1. If you factor in that he himself stated that putting players to L-1 is a scum tell since it potentially rolefishes the doctor in Post 713 this all looks awful.

lol

some things I've got a problem with

no good read D1, 1 towny line D2, and what I said was that if it were a tossup between him and Mora, then my choice wouldn't be as clear. you're twisting what I said, because at that point he was not a strong scumread, he was a null-nulltown while I had stronger townreads on everyone else

you're acting as if Jcoz did aboslutely nothing between 799 and 826, and that's complete bullshit. He had a longass interaction with BBT, and my read changed from that. Again, you're twisting my reads into a sudden 180.

and again, putting playersssssssssssss at L-1 potentially rolefishes the doctor. This is just 1 player, JUST Jcoz. even more twisting happening. And suddenly put him at L-1? I don't think it was that sudden?

"Twisting" is a weird way to describe the thoughts of an un-cc'd claimed cop.

[Moratorium]

It implies deception.

[Regfan]

no good read D1, 1 towny line D2, and what I said was that if it were a tossup between him and Mora, then my choice wouldn't be as clear. you're twisting what I said, because at that point he was not a strong scumread, he was a null-nulltown while I had stronger townreads on everyone else

What you said is that you'd lynch Mora over everyone other than maybe Jcoz which means that out of everyone in the room the person you think is the 2nd most likely to be mafia is Jcoz (It actually objectively means this, so you trying to argue otherwise is humorous).

you're acting as if Jcoz did aboslutely nothing between 799 and 826, and that's complete bullshit. He had a longass interaction with BBT, and my read changed from that. Again, you're twisting my reads into a sudden 180.

There's no real explanation behind how you've suddenly dropped your town read on him and instead want him lynched. Really this is the thing with most of your reads, they change based on what most of the thread seem to be thinking which is scum that's trying to fit it. Like I said; no original content.

and again, putting playersssssssssssss at L-1 potentially rolefishes the doctor. This is just 1 player, JUST Jcoz. even more twisting happening. And suddenly put him at L-1? I don't think it was that sudden?

It was sudden there was no real natural progression of read whatsoever, you just put him at L-1 and given that you said putting people to L-1 that you don't intent to lynch is a scum-tell (Even if it's just 1 person) and in your vote post you state the intention isn't to post it's insanely scummy. But cool you think I'm "Twisting", why would I be twisting? Tell me that? I'm looking at what's in the thread and posting my analysis on it; you're attempting to de-credit a clear right now p much.

[Regfan]

"Twisting" is a weird way to describe the thoughts of an un-cc'd claimed cop.

Glad to see someone else notice it too.

My favourite part though is him stating that I'm "generalising" his play while ignoring the two massive paragraphs of specifics right above it.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

BBT, re; Post 916

1) There's a degree of snarkiness I guess you could say that you have towards Mora that is unnerving and there's also places where it looks like you're subtly trying to shift suspicion on him or de-credit him for instance in Post 393 you seem to take issue with Mora unvoting and taking time to think something through (Which is actually a good thing and a town tell) but you try and put it in the opposite light.

2) Look at it from where my heads at right now; I think (Heck I'm pretty confident) that Xay is mafia and therefore your avoidance of her is reading and coming across as someone that wanted to minimise the focus on their scum partner. And I do think you've interacted with Mala and Wolfy more than Xay, this very post of yours though is fantastic example of what I'm talking about; you haven't commented on my case on Xay whatsoever - and that's something I really do want you to comment on.

3) Given that you eventually state that you read MM's post as "Obvious town" yes I would expect you to mention that at the time; the idea is to constantly share thoughts you have that you're decently confident in since it allows others to A) Get a stronger read on you by understanding your thought process and B) Allows others to look at the read itself and see if they agree or disagree with it. The whole thing looks like you exaggerating the strength that you were reading MM's post as town admittedly though it's not the strongest scum tell and not really worth harping on.

Re; Post 918

1) I remember her using it as town in past in a game I followed of hers (I can't remember which game but it's enough to suggest that she thinks it's the right way to play and therefore would do such as both alignments making it a null tell).

2) I think the fact that she took time to look elsewhere to try and garner a read on Enomis given that she'd disliked his introduction posts is a town-tell, that doesn't change even though he's flipped town. I think there were some skeevy votes on Enomis and I don't think Mala was one of them - I'll go into this later though.

3) I've found that players that attempt to defend themselves as meta with town are forced to do so as scum (If they don't then they're essentially claiming as scum) that means that the use of meta to begin with isn't a scum tell and I don't disbelieve that her play in Wicked was above her usual scum game level so I can sort of see the situation she's put herself in and can see her being put into it as both alignments.

4) Someone claiming they have an idea who the doc is doesn't prevent themselves from being lynched in the slightest and it is a naturalish thing for town to post, it influences their process of elimination reads.

Of course I felt Mora's unvote was strange, so did other people if I remember correctly. It felt like he was bussing his scum partner, the lynch actually looked like it could happen, and he jumped off. Then he jumped back on not very long later (so hardly time to think), I found this weird and confusing. I'm not sure how you don't.

I'm always trying to shift suspicion and de-credit everybody in the game. I'm looking for scum, this is how I do it. Are you suggesting I have only done this to Mora in the entire game?

I definitely did not interact with Wolfy more than Xayzeck, I'm almost 100% sure of that. Like I said, my focus has been elsewhere. When I feel Xayzeck is my strongest scum-read, I will go after him. Until then, I will continue chasing my strongest scum-reads.

You want me to comment on your Xayzeck case...but you think Xayzeck is hanging around waiting for somebody to defend him. What do you want me to do, only post if I agree with what you're saying? I like to see how a discussion plays out before I add my 2 cents, unless I am already involved or started it.

I feel I have contributed a lot to this game, I also feel I have been very open and frequently posted my reads on people throughout the game (albeit not

immediately

after my read has changed/developed). Are you trying to suggest I have done the opposite with this 'MM is town' point? I agree that's it not worth harping on about but the fact you're not happy with that has annoyed me as it seems to go against the grain from the rest of my play.

She took the time to dig on Enomis because she was trying to save her life. Both town and scum would do this, I disagree that it's a town-tell.

[Moratorium]

I think maybe Xayzeck fucked up.

Would like to see the response, if one's coming.

[Xayzeck]

"Twisting" is a weird way to describe the thoughts of an un-cc'd claimed cop.

how else do you want me to describe it

I don't think it's relevant whether he's conftown or not, the point is that a lot of the points he brought up are fairly out of context and inaccurate

[Xayzeck]

What you said is that you'd lynch Mora over everyone other than maybe Jcoz which means that out of everyone in the room the person you think is the 2nd most likely to be mafia is Jcoz (It actually objectively means this, so you trying to argue otherwise is humorous).

except that I never said he was a scumread at the time

[Xayzeck]

There's no real explanation behind how you've suddenly dropped your town read on him and instead want him lynched. Really this is the thing with most of your reads, they change based on what most of the thread seem to be thinking which is scum that's trying to fit it. Like I said; no original content.

I didn't like him in his interaction with BBT, and it gave me a reason to think he was scum? That's how it works, no?

[Moratorium]

Yeah, but you didn't say he was wrong. You said he was twisting your words. Pretty evident implication there, and I think you messed up.

vote Xayzeck

[Xayzeck]

It was sudden there was no real natural progression of read whatsoever, you just put him at L-1 and given that you said putting people to L-1 that you don't intent to lynch is a scum-tell (Even if it's just 1 person) and in your vote post you state the intention isn't to post it's insanely scummy. But cool you think I'm "Twisting", why would I be twisting? Tell me that? I'm looking at what's in the thread and posting my analysis on it; you're attempting to de-credit a clear right now p much.

Except that I intend to lynch Jcoz

Why are you twisting? Because a lot of the points you brought up and I addressed are very out of context, and I'm telling you what's wrong and why I don't like it.

[Regfan]

BBT, this is growing into a slightly pointless back and forth so I'll try and summarise; 1) I'm reading Mora as pretty blatantly town (I'll eat a hat if I'm wrong) but all of his actions, all his reads, all his explanations add up and make a lot of sense, there's a lot of town motivation behind them and it all comes across as genuine so yes, I do find it strange that people do/did find his actions to be suspicious and I definitely think you focused more on Mora than anyone else in the room. 2) It's the lack of..anything with Xay you've put him on the backburner and that's how I see scum treat partners so surely you can see why I'd be suspicious of that given I think Xay is mafia here, we're not really going to resolve that at any point and I'm not interested in lynching you before Xay so we can table that to a later date. 3) I would like your analysis on my case on Xay, I don't care if that helps him lurk because ultimately he's not going to be able to lurk out of this; I'm pretty adamant about lynching him. 4) All I'm trying to suggest is that I wish you did state your MM town read when you got it and you should always post your reads

when you get them

, holding of only helps scum and gives scum players to hide inside of.

Pedit: Xay, you're seriously trying to argue that there's a big difference between 2nd most likely person to be scum in the room and your 2nd scum read and you seem to think that makes up for all the contradictions you have in your reads about him. And actually, the quotes/links are all accurate but again continue ignoring the 2 paragraphs.

[Xayzeck]

Yeah, but you didn't say he was wrong. You said he was twisting your words. Pretty evident implication there, and I think you messed up.

vote Xayzeck

the fuck?

if I said he was twisting my words, that means he's distorted everything I've done

"but you didn't explicitly say he was wrong so u scum"

[Moratorium]

1) I'm reading Mora as pretty blatantly town (I'll eat a hat if I'm wrong)

My god, I wish I was scum right now.

[Regfan]

It was sudden there was no real natural progression of read whatsoever, you just put him at L-1 and given that you said putting people to L-1 that you don't intent to lynch is a scum-tell (Even if it's just 1 person) and in your vote post you state the intention isn't to post it's insanely scummy. But cool you think I'm "Twisting", why would I be twisting? Tell me that? I'm looking at what's in the thread and posting my analysis on it; you're attempting to de-credit a clear right now p much.

Except that I intend to lynch Jcoz

Why are you twisting? Because a lot of the points you brought up and I addressed are very out of context, and I'm telling you what's wrong and why I don't like it.

Activity has slowed way down, and I admit I haven't been active in this game.

Prod dodgy kind of post, but also to get Jcoz back in here,

VOTE: Jcoz

L-1.

Cool. Hang, you clearly stated your intention behind the vote was to get him back into the thread. Not to lynch him then and there.

[Moratorium]

Yeah, but you didn't say he was wrong. You said he was twisting your words. Pretty evident implication there, and I think you messed up.

vote Xayzeck

the fuck?

if I said he was twisting my words, that means he's distorted everything I've done

"but you didn't explicitly say he was wrong so u scum"

It's the intent of the words you used, you're attempting to cast suspicion on him, not just refuting him. Doesn't compute.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

BBT, this is growing into a slightly pointless back and forth so I'll try and summarise; 1) I'm reading Mora as pretty blatantly town (I'll eat a hat if I'm wrong) but all of his actions, all his reads, all his explanations add up and make a lot of sense, there's a lot of town motivation behind them and it all comes across as genuine so yes, I do find it strange that people do/did find his actions to be suspicious and I definitely think you focused more on Mora than anyone else in the room. 2) It's the lack of..anything with Xay you've put him on the backburner and that's how I see scum treat partners so surely you can see why I'd be suspicious of that given I think Xay is mafia here, we're not really going to resolve that at any point and I'm not interested in lynching you before Xay so we can table that to a later date. 3) I would like your analysis on my case on Xay, I don't care if that helps him lurk because ultimately he's not going to be able to lurk out of this; I'm pretty adamant about lynching him. 4) All I'm trying to suggest is that I wish you did state your MM town read when you got it and you should always post your reads

when you get them

, holding of only helps scum and gives scum players to hide inside of.

Pedit: Xay, you're seriously trying to argue that there's a big difference between 2nd most likely person to be scum in the room and your 2nd scum read and you seem to think that makes up for all the contradictions you have in your reads about him. And actually, the quotes/links are all accurate but again continue ignoring the 2 paragraphs.

OK, I'll address a couple of things and try to keep it short.

For some reason, I have struggled to read Mora since the beginning of the game. Anything that pings my interest on him, I focus on it.

I do agree I have hardly interacted with Xayzeck, I do feel however that I have questioned him whenever I felt it was relevant.

I will provide my analysis at a later point. Partly because I want to see how it plays out between the two of you, and partly because it actually looks like you have presented a solid case and I would like to look at it in detail (which I can't do right now as I'm about to head out for a couple of hours) and not just provide a flippant comment or something that isn't of much use to anyone

[Regfan]

Alright I'm going to bed.

Xay, if you're somehow actually town you should be responding to the real reasons why I think you're mafia in Post 900 and actually post a more detailed explanation of your reads and how and why they've changed as the games progressed. Just stating that I'm "Twisting your words" won't change my mind.

[Moratorium]

I do agree I have hardly interacted with Xayzeck, I do feel however that I have questioned him whenever I felt it was relevant.

Is it relevant now?

I will provide my analysis at a later point.

Without questioning him?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I do agree I have hardly interacted with Xayzeck, I do feel however that I have questioned him whenever I felt it was relevant.

Is it relevant now?

I will provide my analysis at a later point.

Without questioning him?

It will be if Xayzeck continues to defend himself so poorly.

Regfan asked me to comment on his case on Xayzeck, why would I need to question Xayzeck to do this?

[JacobSavage]

F-16_Fighting_Falcon replaces Jcozmo.

Also deadline is now on 20^th May 2014 at 2200 BST ((expired on 2014-05-20 22:00:00))

[Regfan]

Oh awesome, hey F-16. If you could catch up asap and let me know your reads on people that'd make this a lot easier.

[Shinobi]

Moratorium wrote:
I also don't understand #409 and #413, where he mistakes who I think he's bussing and it causes him to vote for Wolfy? And then unvote Wolfy when I have to explain his bussing target to him?

Why didn't he vote for me in post #409 if he thought I was bringing up obviously broken reasoning, and push it for all to see?

Instead we get this wierd "I'll show you!" moment, where it appears he thought he'd found a reason to resume wagoning the most townread player...

I didn't understand this when it occurred, and I still don't.

Shinobi, please address this, what happened here?

Because I kinda didn't realize what you were saying. I thought, when you brought up bussing, that you thought I made a huge case to bus my supposed partner with. My votes on Mala were incredibly flimsy, and if I really wanted to "bus," I would have come up with a large number of reasons and try to look as good as possible by pushing her.

Serious question: was

anything

I did regarding the Mala lynch look like it was intended to make me look good? Because I'm 100% certain that both of us came out looking like shit.

And also, what's with this "wagoning" business? I was a "wagon" of one person.

[Xayzeck]

1) Moras Post 29 brought up a fantastic point; there's a disconnect between Xays town play and his play here. Xays reaction in Post 30 was an attempt to deflect the attention elsewhere and is worsened by the fact that in Post 31 he states he intentionally did an anti-town action to be questioned about it; reads as scum fabricating an excuse under pressure. In Post 41 he's stating that he doesn't believe those votes are scum tells but is still pushing Selfie as scum for the action which doesn't mesh in the slightest. So Xay is essentially claiming 1) His town meta/theory changed from his last game to this game, 2) That he intentionally acted in an anti-town manner to get FoS'ed for it 3) That he doesn't believe that those L-2, L-1 votes are scum tells just anti-town but Selfie is scum for putting someone at L-1.

I think I also talked about this L-2 thing earlier in game.

Saying from my last game to this game is pretty inaccurate, I play in multiple games at once, and read games every once in a while. You make it sound like my thoughts on L-1 and L-2 early in the game changed overnight, they didn't.

I L-2'd someone to get questioned for it, yes.

I believe I said I put Selfie is scum for L-1 BEHIND RVS. That is scummy to me. I see scum motivation in trying to hide L-1 behind RVS, but I see towniness in blatant L-1.

2) Xays reads in Post 109 and Post 160 don’t mesh, his explanation of part of it in Post 307 is beyond dreadful; suggesting that you’re happy and want to lynch a town read makes zero sense.

That's because 160 was a lynchpool of active players. I keep D1 lynchpools to 3 people, and only 3. They're the bottom 3 people of a scum>town list, and if it includes a weaktownread, then the weaktownread goes in. Having a 2 person lynchpool gives the impression I have the scumteam D1, and that isn't true. In fact, that rarely happens.

Reads list in Post 326 is equally as bad and contradicts his Post 327 given that his reads should point towards thatguy being very likely PoE scum.

327 wasn't a serious thing you know

There’s also the fact that in Post 445, Post 454 and Post 538 he has Mala as town but throws her into “nullundecided” in Post 539, it looks like trying it might be setting up to get town cred upon a town flip without actually fully preventing it from happening.

Mala townread was largely meta based and pretty old by the 500s I hadn't gotten any new content(from what I can remember) so I was considering the possibility that she may not be town.

In Post 634 Xay states scum are Enomis and Wolfy, Enomis is lynched D1 and flips town, Wolfy is NKed N1 and flips town yet in Post 726 she says

“Wolfy wasn't going to get mislynched anytime soon”

which doesn't at all fit with him having Wolfy as scum; there’s also zero reaction from the flip or the lynch from him.

I think I was the only one scumreading Wolfy though? Or at least, one of the few. Wolfy was townread by most of the playerlist IIRC.

[Regfan]

Xay, re; Post 948

1) I’m not saying that your L-2 theory changed overnight at all, I’m saying that your reasoning behind it when Mora brought it up looks like it’s you attempting to fabricate an excuse. But lets get this right; your L-2 vote was hiden behind RVS so how does that differ from Selfies? How can you do one action and then push someone for doing the same thing? It doesn’t add up.

2) It makes no sense to put a townread in your lynchpool for the sake of having an extra person in your lynchpool and having two people in it only doesn’t suggest that you’ve caught the scum team if you’re excluding all the inactives.

3) The point of #327 is that you should have had the slot as scum via PoE but the way you’ve gone about that suggests you’re not even thinking in a manner that leads you towards those lines, ie. It reads as you not scumhunting.

4) I get that the Mala read was meta-based but the way you’ve gone about it and her for the entirety of the game doesn’t look like you’re actually trying to get a

real

read on her. There’s no attempt to determine her alignment, in fact that’s one of the larger reasons I think you’re mafia; you’ve been sitting back and not actually trying to question people and push the game forward to better your reads.

5) Whether you were the only person that was FoS’ing Wolfy or not is irrelevant, the point is that you thought he was scum therefore when he died it’s not natural for you to say “Well he might have died because he wasn’t going to get mslynched” when if you’re town you’d have come into the day pushing on him.