NY 174: Oldy Mafia 2 (Game Over)

[undo]

Oh really? Why?

[chamber]

Expecting an answer that's not coming doesn't seem -not- silly?

[LoudmouthLee]

Kill LML

Your scumhunting has remained as prevalent as ever. :thumbs:

That's all you're going to respond to? I've already explained multiple times why I felt your move stood out in particular. You're just picking on my wording there.

So, to paraphrase you: You're voting me because I went along with two (wait, one and an FoS) weak wagons with less than 7 pages on D1, and when I find something that truly looks and smells scummy to me, I change my vote to that person?

When I voted StD, I had a grand total of 2 or 3 votes on me (You, DrippingGoofball- who will vote for me regardless of anything whatsoever due to history, and Albert- who also likes voting me as well) - Hardly a wagon. There was no real pressure (sorry!) for me to make a move. I did it because I'm actively scum hunting.

LmL, can you explain what your stance was on Tigras was again? Was it a random vote, or was it an actual suspicion, and if so, why? I'm getting a little confused about what you're trying to say here.

Yos, going back to the opening page, my first post was a dice roll (myself) and the second post was a re-roll. Tigris was the vote in RVS. I didn't move it to begin with because of Tigris's hop on MafiaSSK for being the third person to vote on a wagon, twice. I kept my vote on Tigris instead of moving it because (a) no one, at the moment, was more suspicious and (b) my vote was there already.

I know this may not make any sense, but my suspicion of Tigris would have not have warranted a vote at the time... but since my vote was already there, I kept it there. It would have warranted a FoS.

@LoudmouthLee:

Back in Post 62 you FOSed MafiaSSK while maintaining your vote on Tigris. You defended your FOS suspicion of MafiaSSK in Post 70. But I didn't catch where you actually explained why you were suspicious of MafiaSSK (so much so, that you would have voted MafiaSSK if not for Tigris's invocation of the third-on-the-bandwagon tell).

Why were you suspicious of MafiaSSK, and does that suspicion still linger?

LML didn't directly respond to this. Instead, he posted:

Okay, I gave an FOS to MafiaSSK, and I never voted him. If you would like to run a meta on me (which you're MORE than welcome to), I FoS everyone. Hell, I'd FoS my mother if she said something that I don't agree with. I also tend to confirm vote as well. I'm trying not to make broad, sweeping judgements yet because, well... we're just beginning D1. Here's what I can tell you about my play. I random voted Tigris via dice roll, and changed my vote to StD. I'm tried to scum-hunt with what I have at my disposal, but if you think you're going to catch scum THIS early with small "common" tells, you're sadly mistaken. This game will be trying. Completely.

From that response completely downplaying his FOS of MafiaSSK, it looks like LML is saying that he never really had any articulable suspicion against MafiaSSK. He just really wanted to FOS him, but not because of any real scum reasons, but because _____. The first answer that my mind jumps to to fill in the blank is a scummy rationale.

LML, please respond (to either my original question, my subsequent point made in this post, or both).

I'll respond to both.

If you'll allow me to Meta myself, I have always posted exactly what I am thinking at the exact moment that I'm thinking it. I don't hold back my thoughts on people. At all. If I'm suspecting you, I'm going to tell you. If you look closely at my posts, I quoted a PJ post, saying that at the risk of repeating what had already been said, here's my rationale for FoSing MafiaSSK.

At the time, I didn't have any wonderful suspicions. It sucks to admit, but I'm kinda feeling like I've lost a step. Like I'm not nearly as good at this game as I used to be.

With that being said, I still think StD is scum.

[Green Crayons]

@LML:

So in reading your posts, I am coming to the conclusion that you currently believe that your Tigris vote was based on a weak rationale (garnering trust via third-vote philosophy), and therefore your MafiaSSK FOS, not being sufficient to replace that Tigris vote, was based on an even weaker suspicion?

Is that correct?

[Tigris]

My condolences porochaz.

Apologies, I won't have much time today or tomorrow until the afternoon. (mri reads tomorrow, nothing serious, but distracting. If it becomes more than that, will likely request replacement.)

At this point, not very suspicious of mafiassk to be honest, at least partially because of his potential leaps in logic. Partly kept my vote on him since others found/find him suspicious and to garner more reactions supporting/detracting from him, but that is insufficient reason for me right now since I plan on more fully analyzing in the next few days.

UNVOTE: mafiassk

Also, not really seeing anything suspicious about Dragons (using styles for back in the day to support alignment now seems to be more than stretching), but I might be bias since he's amusing me and is one of the fellow dinosaurs.

[LoudmouthLee]

@green: my vote on Tigris was levied during rvs. I didn't move my vote for the reason you stated. Moreover, I didn't switch my vote for the reason you stated as well.

When I had a reason to move my vote, I did.

[Untrod Tripod]

If you'll allow me to Meta myself,

No

and I'm not trying to back off my VitR or LML reads there. I still feel strongly about those.

Are you implying that you think VitR and LML are scum together? That doesn't feel likely to me at this point.

I don't recall saying I thought they were scum together. They're independent reads, and if we flip one as scum then I will reevaluate my reads on the game.

@UT

, please explain how you view VitR's attacks on LML.

Not ignoring this. I'll get back to you on that later today.

[Green Crayons]

Thanks, LML. I just wanted to make sure my newly bolstered suspicions of you were warranted.

I wasn't voting VitaminR, I would probably vote seol (I find his Post 162 not sitting well with me), MrBuddyLee (one post all game), and

maybe even LoudmouthLee (for reasons I'm letting simmer)

.

Alright, trekking back to this post, I'm happy to follow up on my LML suspicions. (For the record, I'm still comfortable with my seol suspicions as I previously readdressed, but I would not vote MrBuddyLee as I liked his most recent catchup post.)

(1) Well, when referenced above, my suspicions were not much more than what had been previously stated by other players. Perhaps best stated by Vitamin (yup, I already acknowledged in Post 189 that Vitamin has made a good point re: LML notwithstanding the fact that I am voting him; nope, I don't know how I feel about whether this makes the less likely to be partners):

I especially don't like LML's #62, which nicely sets up a potential switch to the MafiaSSK wagon while maintaining a push on Tigris. Seems like something scum might do to make sure that two wagons keep momentum.

Of course you can find two people scummy. It's more about the fact that they seem like weak wagons to me and it seems convenient that those are your two suspects. It's a little bit too 'going with the crowd' for me and I don't remember you as that kind of player.

(2) However, in addition to that original suspicion is LML's post-weekend behavior (Post 278 onwards): the fact that LML has pulled a complete 180 about his suspicions and play.

- Pre-weekend LML is strong and confident (Post 62, Post 70, and Post 110): "there are a few reasons to vote for both Tigris and MafiaSSK," "I like my vote where it is right now," "I tend to shy away from group think," and "I decided that my vote was a good vote to keep there <on Tigris>."

Perhaps best underscoring the point, LML asked incredulously "Am I not allowed to think two people seem scummy?"


- Post-weekend LML is a wilting flower (Post 278, Post 282, and Post 302): "I gave an FOS to MafiaSSK, and

I never voted him

. . . . I FoS everyone. Hell, I'd FoS my mother if she said something that I don't agree with," "I'm trying not to make broad, sweeping judgements yet," "I'm tried to scum-hunt with what I have at my disposal, but if you think you're going to catch scum THIS early with small "common" tells, you're sadly mistaken," and "You're voting me because I went along with two (wait,

one and an FoS

) weak wagons with less than 7 pages on D1...."

Perhaps best encapsulating this new approach is LML's self-depreciating "At the time, I didn't have any wonderful suspicions. It sucks to admit, but I'm kinda feeling like I've lost a step. Like I'm not nearly as good at this game as I used to be."


There's this clear disconnect between (A) the pre-weekend LML, who was happy to admit that he thought both Tigris and MafiaSSK were

scummy

, and (B) the post-weekend LML, who is adamant on emphasizing that he didn't think much of his suspicions of Tigris and MafiaSSK were all that good, that his vote on Tigris was basically post-RVS apathy, and that he didn't even vote (only FOSed!) MafiaSSK.

So why the change? The most articulated suspicion against pre-weekend LML was for his dual Tigris/MafiaSSK suspicion. His new rhetoric looks like a clear attempt to deflate that suspicion. The manner in which he does so strikes me as scummy.

UNVOTE: Vitamin
VOTE: LML

[Albert B. Rampage]

Unvote LML, vote Petroleumjelly

[Albert B. Rampage]

LML sounds town here. I'm not convinced.

[DrippingGoofball]

ABR is town.

[Patrick]

Votecount

LoudmouthLee (5) -- DrippingGoofball, VitaminR, Untrod Tripod, Save the Dragons, Green Crayons
Tigris (1) -- MrBuddyLee
MafiaSSK (5) -- petroleumjelly, Seol, Porochaz, CrashTextDummie, undo
Seol (6) -- Sotty7, Shanba, Cogito Ergo Sum, chamber, Glork, Natirasha
VitaminR (1) -- Yosarian2
Save the Dragons (1) -- LoudmouthLee
Cogito Ergo Sum (1) -- MafiaSSK
petroleumjelly (1) -- Albert B. Rampage

Not voting: Tigris
22 alive, 12 to lynch.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

(1) One player simply stating "agree" with another player's post is information on the agreeing player, not the original post.
(2) Town players (which I currently have you as likely being) agree with scum positions as an inevitability of the game.
(3) Because you do not see much light between your post and Vitamin's post, I attribute your agreement with Vitamin's statement to confirmation bias.

These are all just reasons to avoid having to think about your position and VitaminR's alignment.

[Green Crayons]

Nope.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Yarr.

@undo, Paris is great.

[undo]

Expecting an answer that's not coming doesn't seem -not- silly?

Rough talk there.

chamber and CES, is there any reason why you refuse to respond to my queries?

[VitaminR]

@MBL:

Who do you actually think is scum? Your post contains a lot of commentary on people's actions, but nothing about where you think we should go next and your vote is still on Tigris.

@DGB:

A lot of your posts are just you calling people town at this point. Can we hear something about who you suspect?

@LML:

So, to paraphrase you: You're voting me because I went along with two (wait, one and an FoS) weak wagons with less than 7 pages on D1, and when I find something that truly looks and smells scummy to me, I change my vote to that person?

When I voted StD, I had a grand total of 2 or 3 votes on me (You, DrippingGoofball- who will vote for me regardless of anything whatsoever due to history, and Albert- who also likes voting me as well) - Hardly a wagon. There was no real pressure (sorry!) for me to make a move. I did it because I'm actively scum hunting.

See, I don't really feel like you are actively scumhunting. You haven't really explained your StD suspicions in detail and you're ignoring most of the content he's posted (he's one of the more active players in the game).

@pj:

In response to VitaminR's Post 249, my concern is that you are drawing a poor distinction between strong and weak players in an invitational game filled with players who have generally each been playing mafia for over five years. I do not plan on underestimating players.

Even assuming I did believe there are a few "weak" players in the game, then if a "weak" player is scum, pretty much the only way they are going to get lynched is if they are attacked by the other "strong" players.

But I take it you also think there are only a few "strong" players? Mind sharing who those are, if you are not willing to divulge who you think the "weak" players are?

I already told you what I had in mind when I said "strong players": you, Seol, LML are good debaters. I don't see the point in your question beyond that. I never implied anything about who I think is particularly skilled (not necessarily even coextensive with who is a good debater, btw) and how many players I think fit that bill. It wasn't even something I was thinking about, it was just a reaction to the particular situation of that group of players pressuring MafiaSSK.

Let me turn this around on you. Do you think that a debate between MafiaSSK, on the one hand, and you and Seol (+/- LML), on the other, is going to end with the town going "by golly, that MafiaSSK guy is totally right"? If you think I'm using outdated meta, fine, just tell me I'm wrong. (No offence meant, MafiaSSK.)

[VitaminR]

chamber, how do you read LML's recent posts? I need a second opinion.

[Yosarian2]

Yos, going back to the opening page, my first post was a dice roll (myself) and the second post was a re-roll. Tigris was the vote in RVS. I didn't move it to begin with because of Tigris's hop on MafiaSSK for being the third person to vote on a wagon, twice. I kept my vote on Tigris instead of moving it because (a) no one, at the moment, was more suspicious and (b) my vote was there already.

I know this may not make any sense, but my suspicion of Tigris would have not have warranted a vote at the time... but since my vote was already there, I kept it there. It would have warranted a FoS.

You're still not really explaining your thought process here. What was it that Tigris did that, in your mind, was suspicious enough to warrant a FOS?

[LoudmouthLee]

Reposted for everyone who may have missed this.

Not feeling MafiaSSK either.

Tigris is much more interesting.

Glork is a definite town read right now.

...
I'm also not feeling the MafiaSSK votes. Seems like a poor excuse to vote him even for this early in the game. I understand what he is trying to say about bandwagons being one of the best ways to garner information, but they aren't the only way.

Unvote, Vote: Seol

This is quite an interesting post. Sotty decides to not be a part of either of the two main wagons, citing a poor excuse this early in the game to vote. It's page 3. There is no bad reason to vote for someone at this stage. I don't exactly know why, but this post tripped me up a little bit. In my opinion, there are a few reasons to vote for both Tigris and MafiaSSK. With the risk of repeating what others have said:

...

2.)

Vote: MafiaSSK

for this:

...why would I join a bandwagon instead of choosing an alternative that I think may lead to more information on the first day?

Because bandwagons are guaranteed information especially at high vote counts. You choosing to go after someone different has in fact more potential to gain less information...

Tigris's 3rd vote "vote" seems to play on the old timer's emotions... it's a "tell" that we all know and have looked at before. Almost like trying to garner trust with the town. I like my vote where it is right now, and...

FoS: MafiaSSK

@Seol, in response to 54 - If a bandwagon is arbitrary and standard opening, why the defense of Tigris?

[chamber]

chamber, how do you read LML's recent posts? I need a second opinion.

I'm not really sure how I feel. There have certainly been some things that bothered me. I've refrained from speaking about them because I'm hoping town LML will self correct when/if he stops being pressured so much.

[Yosarian2]

I'm lurking.

I know you replaced in late, but that was 2 days ago, and the thread is only 11 page long.

I'm going to give you another 24 hours to read the thread and post something intelligent about it. If you haven't done so by then, I'm going to vote for you.

Vote: Natirasha

You have 3 choice; you can play the game, you can replace out, or you can die. It's totally up to you, but one of those three things is going to happen today.

[DrippingGoofball]

@DGB: A lot of your posts are just you calling people town at this point. Can we hear something about who you suspect?

66% of scum hunting is town hunting.

Don't worry I'll get a bee in my bonnet soon enough.

[DrippingGoofball]

I'm lurking.

I know you replaced in late, but that was 2 days ago, and the thread is only 11 page long.

I'm going to give you another 24 hours to read the thread and post something intelligent about it. If you haven't done so by then, I'm going to vote for you.

Vote: Natirasha

You have 3 choice; you can play the game, you can replace out, or you can die. It's totally up to you, but one of those three things is going to happen today.

VOTE: Natirasha

[Untrod Tripod]

unvote vote Natirasha

post or perish