Newbie 1495 (DAY 4) - The One where Everyone got Murdered

[Regfan]

Just finished a final which takes.a load.of.my mind, going to decide.on mala and xay tomorrow.

[Malakittens]

Just finished a final which takes.a load.of.my mind, going to decide.on mala and xay tomorrow.

Slow day at work due to pouring rain. Here if needed.

[Regfan]

Going through BBT and Moras interactions with the VT claims:

BBT-Mala:

Okay, I’m happy to rule out a BBT-Mala scum team entirely, if they’re scum together they deserve the win for two reasons 1) They’ve had a chance to blitz and haven’t and 2) I don’t believe BBT as scum in his first game would send a PM to the mod accusing his partner of potentially breaking a rule like he did in Post 135 and his push on her in Post 264 as well as the continued push throughout the game.

BBT-Xay:

Read more and looked into Moras case on BBT-Xay as a scum team in Post 1293 and it holds some merit, think point #1 in it is very spot on, the vote on Xay when entering the game to progress onto sticking him in undecided in Post 93 does make sense as partners, think I said it earlier but there is a distinct lack of interaction between the two of them and BBTs analysis of my case on Xay in Post 965 was very fence-sitty and tried to pass of some things that are scum tells as null tells. Worth noting that BBT never voted Xay but voted F-16 as soon as I voted there in Post 1096, not as bad as Moras hammer at all but it’s bad in the manner that it makes a lot of sense as not wanting to buss a partner (Esepcially if Xay is roleblocker) and jumping on a mslynch chance.

Mora-Xay:

I have some difficulty believing that Mora would do meta research to put forward a case on his partner like he did on Xay in Post 29 but I really dislike how that scum read sort of vanished mid way through D1 and I can’t really find why at all, just a statement saying Xay is in his top three in Post 447 but no real push on Xay, drop of that scum read is strange since it was based on rather solid logical reasoning, vote and the whole “You’re implying the clear is being manipulative” in Post 934 does point slightly against partners but for me the big issue is still the hammer on F-16 in Post 1111 because it stopped what most probably was a move back to Xay. Really not sure what sort of conclusion to drawn from his interactions with Xay because there's things that point for and against it, certainly possible though.

Mora-Mala:

Mora and and Mala have little worthwhile interaction in the first half of D1, really starts with him disliking her “1 of Wolfy/BBT” proposal in Post 385, as opposed to Xay his Post 447 makes him look less likely to be partners with Mala, think he’d have had alternative people he could have pushed there as scum rather than a partner, the research into her scum meta in Post 474 again is something I’m not sure scum would spend so much effort doing just to make their partner look bad but then dropping that all to push Enomis based on VCA stuff is very uhh admittedly his reasoning for it in Post 691 the following day does remove most of the issues I have with it. Really it's similar to Mora-Xay where there's things pointing both ways so it's possible but wouldn't say super super likely.

So interaction wise weirdly enough BBT-Xay make the most sense, Mora-Mala and Mora-Xay are possible but not as likely and BBT-Mala is something I doubt.

Taking a few hour break then getting through the VT claims play themselves.

[JacobSavage]

Votecount 3.1

Not Voting [5]:

Xayzeck, Regfan, BlueBloodedToffee, Moratorium, Malakittens

With 7 alive it takes

4

to lynch[/i]

Deadline is 11^th June 2014, at 1200 BST ((expired on 2014-06-11 12:00:00))

Prodding BBT, Xayzeck and Moratorium

[Moratorium]

Oh yeah it’s E-V-E-R-T, an O, an N
Incase you didn’t catch it then we’ll spell it out again
Oh yeah it’s E-V-E-R-T, an O, an N
We’re the finest team in all the land
The gallant Everton

Oh yeah it’s E-V-E-R-T, an O, an N
Incase you didn’t catch it then we’ll spell it out again
Oh yeah it’s E-V-E-R-T, an O, an N
We’re the finest team in all the land
The gallant Everton

They come from Garston, Woolton
They come from Dingle too
They come from parts of Huyton
To cheer the boys in blue

The come from Bootle, Prescott
And all of Merseyside
They travel up to Goodison Park
And long they sing with pride

Oh yeah it’s E-V-E-R-T, an O, an N
Incase you didn’t catch it then we’ll spell it out again
Oh yeah it’s E-V-E-R-T, an O, an N
We’re the finest team in all the land
The gallant Everton

Oh yeah it’s E-V-E-R-T, an O, an N
Incase you didn’t catch it then we’ll spell it out again
Oh yeah it’s E-V-E-R-T, an O, an N
We’re the finest team in all the land
The gallant Everton

[Moratorium]

FMPOV,

They’ve had a chance to blitz and haven’t

+

I can't reconcile a full-on bus, from the outset, on D1, without daytalk, from newbscum.

make a BBT/Mala team effectively impossible.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Going through BBT and Moras interactions with the VT claims:

BBT-Mala:

Okay, I’m happy to rule out a BBT-Mala scum team entirely, if they’re scum together they deserve the win for two reasons 1) They’ve had a chance to blitz and haven’t and 2) I don’t believe BBT as scum in his first game would send a PM to the mod accusing his partner of potentially breaking a rule like he did in Post 135 and his push on her in Post 264 as well as the continued push throughout the game.

BBT-Xay:

Read more and looked into Moras case on BBT-Xay as a scum team in Post 1293 and it holds some merit, think point #1 in it is very spot on, the vote on Xay when entering the game to progress onto sticking him in undecided in Post 93 does make sense as partners, think I said it earlier but there is a distinct lack of interaction between the two of them and BBTs analysis of my case on Xay in Post 965 was very fence-sitty and tried to pass of some things that are scum tells as null tells. Worth noting that BBT never voted Xay but voted F-16 as soon as I voted there in Post 1096, not as bad as Moras hammer at all but it’s bad in the manner that it makes a lot of sense as not wanting to buss a partner (Esepcially if Xay is roleblocker) and jumping on a mslynch chance.

I have already tried to explain the 'lack of interaction' with Xayzeck even though I don't agree with the statement. My vote on Xayzeck when I entered the game was hardly built on a solid case was it, you can't be serious that you didn't expect my vote to move/read to change.

Again, had scum-read Jcoz, then was scum-reading F-16 (up until his super townie post, after which he got hammered), so if it looks like there is a wagon forming on one of my scum-reads, you better believe I'll jump on.

Mora-Xay:

I have some difficulty believing that Mora would do meta research to put forward a case on his partner like he did on Xay in Post 29 but I really dislike how that scum read sort of vanished mid way through D1 and I can’t really find why at all, just a statement saying Xay is in his top three in Post 447 but no real push on Xay, drop of that scum read is strange since it was based on rather solid logical reasoning, vote and the whole “You’re implying the clear is being manipulative” in Post 934 does point slightly against partners but for me the big issue is still the hammer on F-16 in Post 1111 because it stopped what most probably was a move back to Xay. Really not sure what sort of conclusion to drawn from his interactions with Xay because there's things that point for and against it, certainly possible though.

I could quite easily say that this paragraph is very fence-sitty, you've hardly given a verdict on what you believe here. Do you see how it can be possible to do that sometimes? Not everything is black and white.

Mora-Mala:

Mora and and Mala have little worthwhile interaction in the first half of D1, really starts with him disliking her “1 of Wolfy/BBT” proposal in Post 385, as opposed to Xay his Post 447 makes him look less likely to be partners with Mala, think he’d have had alternative people he could have pushed there as scum rather than a partner, the research into her scum meta in Post 474 again is something I’m not sure scum would spend so much effort doing just to make their partner look bad but then dropping that all to push Enomis based on VCA stuff is very uhh admittedly his reasoning for it in Post 691 the following day does remove most of the issues I have with it. Really it's similar to Mora-Xay where there's things pointing both ways so it's possible but wouldn't say super super likely.

Again, fence-sitty, for the second time this time. Yet you seem to have a big problem with my fence-sitty post regarding your case on Xayzeck. Very hypocritical.

Both of Mora's late day actions have been more than questionable, yet they seem to pass by with nothing more than a brief mention. I find this quite outstanding, interested to see how this progresses.

[Moratorium]

In post 1327, Regfan wrote:
Mora-Xay: I have some difficulty believing that Mora would do meta research to put forward a case on his partner like he did on Xay in Post 29 but I really dislike how that scum read sort of vanished mid way through D1 and I can’t really find why at all, just a statement saying Xay is in his top three in Post 447 but no real push on Xay, drop of that scum read is strange since it was based on rather solid logical reasoning, vote and the whole “You’re implying the clear is being manipulative” in Post 934 does point slightly against partners but for me the big issue is still the hammer on F-16 in Post 1111 because it stopped what most probably was a move back to Xay. Really not sure what sort of conclusion to drawn from his interactions with Xay because there's things that point for and against it, certainly possible though.


I could quite easily say that this paragraph is very fence-sitty, you've hardly given a verdict on what you believe here. Do you see how it can be possible to do that sometimes? Not everything is black and white.

There's a big difference between this paragraph and what you have been doing.

Imagine a big line:

Code: Select all

        |--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|

Towny Thoughts                                                                                   Scummy Thoughts

Each X on this line corresponds to a thought expressed about a particular player. Here's what Regfan's above paragraph looks like graphically represented on this line.

Code: Select all

        |--X---X--------------------------------------------------------------------------------X--X-|

Towny Thoughts                                                                                   Scummy Thoughts

Some things that are very town, and some things that are very scum. Easy to follow statements that show that, hey, look, this isn't a clear decision, because he's having to examine and choose between very disparate ranges of behaviour. Now here's what your opinions of Xayzeck over the course of the game looks like graphically represented on this same line.

Code: Select all

        |--------------------------------XXX---XX-XXX-X-XX-X--XX---------------------------------------|

Towny Thoughts                                                                                   Scummy Thoughts

Super hedgy and impossible to attribute your actual opinion on him. Hence, verbal Switzerland.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

In post 1327, Regfan wrote:
Mora-Xay: I have

some

difficulty believing that Mora would do meta research to put forward a case on his partner like he did on Xay in Post 29 but I

really dislike

how that scum read sort of vanished mid way through D1 and I can’t really find why at all, just a statement saying Xay is in his top three in Post 447 but no real push on Xay, drop of that scum read is strange since it was based on rather solid logical reasoning, vote and the whole “You’re implying the clear is being manipulative” in Post 934 does point

slightly

against partners but for me the big issue is still the hammer on F-16 in Post 1111 because it stopped what most probably was a move back to Xay.

Really not sure

what sort of conclusion to drawn from his interactions with Xay because there's things that point for and against it, certainly possible though.


I could quite easily say that this paragraph is very fence-sitty, you've hardly given a verdict on what you believe here. Do you see how it can be possible to do that sometimes? Not everything is black and white.

There's a big difference between this paragraph and what you have been doing.

Imagine a big line:

Code: Select all

        |--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|

Towny Thoughts                                                                                   Scummy Thoughts

Each X on this line corresponds to a thought expressed about a particular player. Here's what Regfan's above paragraph looks like graphically represented on this line.

Code: Select all

        |--X---X--------------------------------------------------------------------------------X--X-|

Towny Thoughts                                                                                   Scummy Thoughts

Some things that are very town, and some things that are very scum. Easy to follow statements that show that, hey, look, this isn't a clear decision, because he's having to examine and choose between very disparate ranges of behaviour. Now here's what your opinions of Xayzeck over the course of the game looks like graphically represented on this same line.

Code: Select all

        |--------------------------------XXX---XX-XXX-X-XX-X--XX---------------------------------------|

Towny Thoughts                                                                                   Scummy Thoughts

Super hedgy and impossible to attribute your actual opinion on him. Hence, verbal Switzerland.

What a great way to try and mis-represent everything that was just said.

I understand this is only your opinion of course so I would like you to clarify. Could you explain to me how words such as 'some', 'slightly' and 'Really not sure' (bolded for your convenience) are representative of being

that

polarized on your scale. Because to me, they sound like words that would be used when inbetween two minds and still undecided.

The only one that sounds definitive is the one I have underlined.

[Moratorium]

You are scraping the bottom of the barrel if you want to get into a semantics argument with me on the nature of hedging. Your argument is an attempt to justify your unwillingness to express an opinion about your partner.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

You are scraping the bottom of the barrel if you want to get into a semantics argument with me on the nature of hedging. Your argument is an attempt to justify your unwillingness to express an opinion about your partner.

Is that the best response you could come up with? I'm assuming you agree with what I said and had nothing but this to reply with.

It's got nothing to do with my opinion on anyone, it's about you trying to mis-represent information for your own advantage. Regfan has just done exactly as I did with his Xayzeck case but you're trying to say it's different in order to point suspicion in a certain direction.

I would like you to explain the difference to me. Tell me how those words I highlighted lead to such a polarizing opinion for Regfan, but a so-so opinion from myself.

[Moratorium]

Sigh.

Look at your post. You are complaining about his language. Your definition of fence-sitting is about how he's saying things, the words he's using. What the fuck, he knows how he feels about the game, but you're calling him hypocritical based on his language.

Contrast.

- Defense is not relevant
- Meta is not relevant
- Xayzeck made a mistake
- Wifom (scumplay makes sense, townplay makes sense)
- Comment is not relevant
- No one else is contributing.
- I'm on the fence about his voting.
- He's scummy. He's pretty towny.
- I am misreading someone.

A measured intent to obfuscate. Characterization-free descriptions of how what you say and discuss is as null as possible. Not semantic complaints about language. This is what I mean, you're purposefully trying to talk about useless irrelevant aspects of Regfan's posts ("oh my god, he used the word some! and slightly!") and characterize them as the same as what you are doing, which they aren't, for the sole purpose of being able to say "Hey, I'm not giving opinions about my partner, but that's totally cool because I'm just like Regfan, see?".

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Sigh.

Look at your post. You are complaining about his language. Your definition of fence-sitting is about how he's saying things, the words he's using. What the fuck, he knows how he feels about the game, but you're calling him hypocritical based on his language.

Contrast.

- Defense is not relevant
- Meta is not relevant
- Xayzeck made a mistake
- Wifom (scumplay makes sense, townplay makes sense)
- Comment is not relevant
- No one else is contributing.
- I'm on the fence about his voting.
- He's scummy. He's pretty towny.
- I am misreading someone.

A measured intent to obfuscate. Characterization-free descriptions of how what you say and discuss is as null as possible. Not semantic complaints about language. This is what I mean, you're purposefully trying to talk about useless irrelevant aspects of Regfan's posts ("oh my god, he used the word some! and slightly!") and characterize them as the same as what you are doing, which they aren't, for the sole purpose of being able to say "Hey, I'm not giving opinions about my partner, but that's totally cool because I'm just like Regfan, see?".

Wow, what are you talking about?

You tried to mis-represent what was said. You tried to establish a difference between the language used from Regfan and myself (which was the same) so that you can agree with Regfan and move the game forward in the direction you would like to take it.

I asked you to explain how Regfan's post; where he himself stated that he 'wasn't really sure' what any of it meant, comes across to you as completely polarized.

I'm calling him hypocritical because he is neither leaning one way or the other, which is apparently one of his problems with one of my posts on his Xayzeck case, how is that not hypocritical?

Again, I'm talking about your mis-representation of his post now as well. The graph you tried to use is intentionally misleading.

[Xayzeck]

Hi i'm still alive

BBT, Refgan was not fence sitting at all? Fence sitting is not being sure of something, and you can go both ways about it.

What Refgan was doing was leaning towards a certain side, but still not certain as other options are more obvious to him.

Get it right maybe?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Mora-Xay:

I have some difficulty believing that Mora would do meta research to put forward a case on his partner like he did on Xay in Post 29 but I really dislike how that scum read sort of vanished mid way through D1 and I can’t really find why at all, just a statement saying Xay is in his top three in Post 447 but no real push on Xay, drop of that scum read is strange since it was based on rather solid logical reasoning, vote and the whole “You’re implying the clear is being manipulative” in Post 934 does point slightly against partners but for me the big issue is still the hammer on F-16 in Post 1111 because it stopped what most probably was a move back to Xay.

Really not sure what sort of conclusion to drawn from his interactions with Xay because there's things that point for and against it, certainly possible though.

BBT, Refgan was not fence sitting at all?

Fence sitting is not being sure of something

Really? I can't believe I'm having to explain this to a second person. This is becoming comical.

So fence-sitting is not being sure of something/not choosing a side...and Regfan has specifically said that he 'Really isn't sure about his conclusion...'

I don't know what else to say. I genuinely don't.

[Regfan]

BBT, it wasn’t the fact that your vote changed that I found bothersome it was that after your vote changed you never relooked at Xay again which is something I can see scum doing to a partner, similarly I think while you’re claiming to have scum read F-16 you not joining the Xay wagon at all despite there being big cases put up against him and then jumping on F-16 makes sense if you’re mafia with Xay. Also the point of interaction analysis isn’t to come to a definitive conclusion; that’s actually not possible to do in most cases, most interaction between players are possible for them to be scum together regardless of their affilation, it’s to work out which ones make more sense and work out which ones make no sense; it’s hardly “fence-sitting”, just narrowing down options.

Anyway I finished rereading inside the VTs last night, game myself today to actually think about it and my mind hasn't changed since I've reread, few largest things that have influenced my decision if you're curious are 1) Still find Malas reaction to being run up in Post 512 to be genuine and town, 2) I think Malas mention of Shin being VT rather than doctor in Post 1321 is something she genuinely believed given she's mentioned it several times throughout the game thus have some difficulty seeing her shoot him, 3) Still take issue with the sheer amount of coasting and lack of stances Xay took for the majority of the game and 4) BBT mentioned it earlier but Xays Post 1079 does very much look like setting up to claim doctor, not sure why a VT would react in that manner.

So I'm sorry if I'm wrong but here goes nothing:

Vote: Xay

Mala - If this is right I think Xays the RB so we don't particularly need to decide in the doctors but gun to head I still believe BBT largely because I found his discussion around the BP section and after Xays claim to match very much so of that of a doctor and I have a large issue ignoring Moras hammer on F-16.

[Regfan]

Looks like it's just waiting on Mala to come in and hammer regardless of her alignment here.

I'm heading out for the night so hopefully I come back to good news. Either way will say whoever is scum inside the doctors has played one hell of a game.

[Xayzeck]

woah

holy shit

if mala is here it's game over

[Xayzeck]

Also I have quotes from Xayz and when he flips scum he's setting a pretty nice mislynch up on me in a lylo situation if he's not the RB'r

This is the quote that if Xayz flips scum he's setting me up for a mislynch. Regardless of his possible goon/rb'r status.

it's quotes like these in her iso that are just straight up weird

[Xayzeck]

i would do a case but it's one hell of an iso, and you seem like you've made up your mind

and it's one hell of an ISO to do a case on holy hell

[Malakittens]

Looks like it's just waiting on Mala to come in and hammer regardless of her alignment here.

I'm heading out for the night so hopefully I come back to good news. Either way will say whoever is scum inside the doctors has played one hell of a game.

Can't hammer as you are the only vote on Xayz. Looks like mora either unvoted or mod didn't count the vote.

Thanks for the input on the doc thing rather have it then without it.

Either way.

I'm becoming under the weather, idk why, but I think I have gotten sick. Just going to vote Xayz now.

VOTE: Xayz

1342 feels fake as hell.

[Xayzeck]

gws mala

[Xayzeck]

1342 is real as hell though

[Moratorium]

Jacob Savage missed my vote in 1311.

[Xayzeck]

hiya mora

i was rewatching darker than black recently

i saw your name in there