Newbie 1509: The Devil's Run (Game Over)

[Clusk92]

I do not like the massive U-turn that occurs in a single post of going from not thinking Neil is mafia to voting for him, at all.

[blueheaven]

@Andrew. What the hell are you trying to do?

There were still questions and a lack of claim. I will have several questions for you when Im not posting with my tablet.

[Huntress]

@ Andrew:

Why did you hammer without waiting for a claim?

However, we have a couple of days left,

When you wrote this we had five days and sixteen hours left. This looks like you are trying to mislead people into thinking we are closer to the deadline than we are. Another case of "rushing the lynch"?

So yeah, perhaps you should catch up the posts from the past few days.

It should be clear to you that I

am

fully caught up, so is this another case of you spreading false information, in the hope that people might take your word for it and act on it?

And, do you consider now an appropriate time for neil to claim? Why?

I would have said it was too soon to ask for a claim, and also that it's the person who intends to hammer that should ask it. That seems an odd question coming from you as it was you pushing for a claim, not me.

o your first question, at that point, neil barely had many posts. His only suspect (that he mentioned so far) was Fish. And he did say his playstyle was to identify a person top of his list and he will pursue that avenue. I consider that tunneling. His only reason for that was AtF, which he has been shown to be guilty for as well.

Tunnelling is several posts pursuing one person to the exclusion of almost everyone else, over a long period. That may be Neil's playstyle but he wasn't doing that when you accused him of it.


So it's currently looking like Andrew and blueheaven are the scum.

[blueheaven]

When you wrote this we had five days and sixteen hours left. This looks like you are trying to mislead people into thinking we are closer to the deadline than we are. Another case of "rushing the lynch"?

I might only have been here one week, but i noticed that weekends tend to be less active. Neil seems post very rarely. So, it is my opinion that we do have 5 days, and we should use these 5 days to get more info from neil.

It should be clear to you that I

am

fully caught up, so is this another case of you spreading false information, in the hope that people might take your word for it and act on it?

While I was posting my reply to your first post, you weren't fully caught up. It was only when I replied, I saw your next post and addressed it.

I would have said it was too soon to ask for a claim, and also that it's the person who intends to hammer that should ask it. That seems an odd question coming from you as it was you pushing for a claim, not me.

My question goes both ways. THough you answered it anyway. It should have went, why do you not consider this an appropriate time to claim. Yes, I was pushing for a claim, my vote putting him at L-1 is precisely for that, because from what I know, that is usually enough to ask for a claim.

Tunnelling is several posts pursuing one person to the exclusion of almost everyone else, over a long period. That may be Neil's playstyle but he wasn't doing that when you accused him of it.

Note, I said his vote on Fish was very tunnel-visioned. That means he caught on to something(which don't consider to be much) and he kept on going about it while ignoring questions pertaining to it.

After my pbpa, I asked about what else fish did that was scummy, besides the AtF stuff. He replied by insisting that the AtF he was referring to was scummy as hell. I took that as him implying that all he had on fish was his quote about the game with you. His next post explains his playstyle. Which he said that he liked his vote on Fish and kept it there because thats how he plays. He has targeted Fish, and in no way given any look at any other players. I consider that tunnel vision.

So it's currently looking like Andrew and blueheaven are the scum.

Noted.

[Andrewseagull]

@ Huntress

Do you think that I'm scum because you know that Neil is townie because you're mafia?

I'm vanilla townie.

Do you really think someone would not bother playing if they were mafia?

[Formerfish]

Andrew. Buddy. Pal. Dude. Why did you just claim? The day is over, you are in no danger of a lynch and there is no town motivation to claim in this situation. You are playing poorly and I sincerely hope you listen to us about why that is.

[Andrewseagull]

Andrew. Buddy. Pal. Dude. Why did you just claim? The day is over, you are in no danger of a lynch and there is no town motivation to claim in this situation. You are playing poorly and I sincerely hope you listen to us about why that is.

Playing poorly? This is a newbie game and only my second game ever, surely you expect players to play "poorly" in these games?


And how is the day over? We still have 5 days left.

[Formerfish]

Remember when I said that you should listen to us, well here we go. (This also would have been nice if our IC was here to explain a little bit of what was going on)

Neil was at l-1, or one vote to be lynched. You came in and voted him after switching from me and lynched him. Your vote was the final nail in his coffin. In the normal context of the game someone would

Intent To Hammer

and that would put the lynchee on notice that they should go ahead and put their house in order, i.e. claim, and then put together any final reads or observations they may have in case they flip town. You didn't do that here and you lynched Neil without him even having a chance to come in and defend himself. (Now don't get it twisted, I do think he is scum, but there are certain steps that need to be taken to ensure the right amount of time and thought be given to a lynch. Lolhammers, or trollhammers really have no place in Newbie games)

So that was mistake #1, you failed to give intent, and you hammered, apparently, without knowing you were hammering. Both very bad things, and each things that come off as very scummy.

The second thing you did that was poor play was claiming when you had absolutely no need to. By claiming VT you are effectively telling scum that they should be looking elsewhere for the nightkill. As a VT your job should be trying to draw the nightkill as to protect your power roles. You did the opposite here and again that is anti-town play and you could be strung up for it.

[Andrewseagull]

Remember when I said that you should listen to us, well here we go. (This also would have been nice if our IC was here to explain a little bit of what was going on)

Neil was at l-1, or one vote to be lynched. You came in and voted him after switching from me and lynched him. Your vote was the final nail in his coffin. In the normal context of the game someone would

Intent To Hammer

and that would put the lynchee on notice that they should go ahead and put their house in order, i.e. claim, and then put together any final reads or observations they may have in case they flip town. You didn't do that here and you lynched Neil without him even having a chance to come in and defend himself. (Now don't get it twisted, I do think he is scum, but there are certain steps that need to be taken to ensure the right amount of time and thought be given to a lynch. Lolhammers, or trollhammers really have no place in Newbie games)

So that was mistake #1, you failed to give intent, and you hammered, apparently, without knowing you were hammering. Both very bad things, and each things that come off as very scummy.

The second thing you did that was poor play was claiming when you had absolutely no need to. By claiming VT you are effectively telling scum that they should be looking elsewhere for the nightkill. As a VT your job should be trying to draw the nightkill as to protect your power roles. You did the opposite here and again that is anti-town play and you could be strung up for it.

So has Neil been lynched then? I don't understand, we still have 5 days to go?! And I don't understand all this "hammer" business which you're going on about?

[Formerfish]

The days only matter if we haven't reached a consensus for a lynch. With 9 players it takes 5 votes to lynch someone. You were the fifth, "hammer", vote and effectively cemented the lynch. So yes, Neil is lynched.

[Huntress]

@ Andrew:

Did the other place you played at have fixed deadlines, when the lynch didn't take place until the deadline had been reached? If it did I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt for the hammer this time as we didn't make it clear that the lynch would happen immediately a majority was reached, although the discussion about whether or not we should put someone at L-1 should have given you a hint.

@ Mod:

Game Timeline

Day phases will last two weeks.
Night phases will last two days.

Would it be possible for you to amend this to make it clear that it is not a fixed-length Day please?

[Andrewseagull]

@ Andrew:

Did the other place you played at have fixed deadlines, when the lynch didn't take place until the deadline had been reached? If it did I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt for the hammer this time as we didn't make it clear that the lynch would happen immediately a majority was reached, although the discussion about whether or not we should put someone at L-1 should have given you a hint.

@ Mod:

Game Timeline

Day phases will last two weeks.
Night phases will last two days.

Would it be possible for you to amend this to make it clear that it is not a fixed-length Day please?

Lynch was just everyday at 10pm, even if one player had 19 votes to his name etc.

Didn't realise once someone hit 5 then that's it, I understand what you're all saying now.

[Huntress]

And how does this give me a let out? It is clear that Alina has neil clear in her sights, and you can take my current vote as the final vote should he be lynched eventually. I am convinced he is scum.

If you are convinced he is scum, why did you say, "I am not sure if I am comfortable with neil's lynch"?

And this is just my opinion, especially for a person without any experience in this site (not sure if I can call him a newbie), BabiSoup's efforts are town-tell. No newbie scum would go to such lengths to scum hunt. This is also why I suspect Andrew.

Why do you think newbie scum would be less likely to try to find evidence against the other side than newbie town would?

While I was posting my reply to your first post, you weren't fully caught up. It was only when I replied, I saw your next post and addressed it.

The post you would have seen

before

you could send yours, due to the anti-ninja system? And it was one day, not the few days you claimed it was.

Do you think that I'm scum because you know that Neil is townie because you're mafia?

No. If I were mafia, how would my knowing Neil's alignment affect what I think about you?

Do you really think someone would not bother playing if they were mafia?

It depends on the person but your predecessor never posted so it's probably not indicative. (If you're interested in the subject there are statistics on the subject in the MD forum that show that a replaced player has a slightly higher chance of being mafia.)

[blueheaven]

@huntress
Is the anti-ninja system the one where you had to confirm your post a second time? I was posting with a tablet and wondered why i had to click submit twice. And yes, one day. I've no idea why i said few days because barely anyone was away for more than a day.

And though I am convinced he is scum, based on what I read, I still wanted a claim. Based on a past game here, there was a guy whom other players were convinced was scum, he claimed a PR, but still got lynched. And guess what, he was telling the truth. So, I wanted to use the time left to evaluate neil's defense.

I really dont want to answer your second question in detail but here it is. I generally consider the action of going to great lengths in scum hunting a town tell. But of course, a veteran may use that because he is experienced at it. So, if a newbie does it, i consider it town-tell. This is the same reason i suspect andrew. A newbie scum generally don't care who gets lynched as long as it isn't him. So usually, they won't have a solid case to explain their vote. Hence, case in point, Andrew.

[Alina]

what

the

@!$(&$@!(&!$@($!@&

omg

Well, my mind is currently completely imploding. :/ Thank god I posted my reads when I could. IF I die tonight, I want you guys to know (until this incredibly strange occurence) I had a good time playing with you all and had fun, and good luck!

[Alina]

Even if Neil flips scum don't forget to look at Andrewseagull. He may have thought of voting his partner to gain credit after pretty much evryone was suspicious of him but didn't know his vote would hammer him idk i'm typing fast so i get it in before baezu locks just even if neil flips scum make sure you keep an eye on him anyways

[Formerfish]

I've never been scum in a newbie game before, do they get day talk in their scum chats? If so Neil could have coached Andrew to quick hammer, and then blame it on ignorance. Neil has mentioned before that his scum meta is to self hammer when at l-1, hence why I wanted someone to put him there.

(Self hammering as scum can be a useful tool to avoid any more information from coming out. It ends the day period and if the mod is on top of things can get the thread locked with a quickness.)

[Alina]

In previous games I've read, I'm pretty sure they only had night chat pre-game after confirming before enough confirmed to start the game and every night...Unless they have daychat now in matrix6 I don't think so? I personally think it would be really OP if they DID have day chat.

[Formerfish]

I'm not buying the whole, "Wat guiz? Hammered? I can't even drink!" stickt because it says in the rules that a lynch will occur when a majority of people vote a player, and in each and every vote count it says with 9 alive, it takes 5 votes for a lynch.

[Alina]

I don't either. He's probably scum one way or the other, it seems a bit absurd to me; it'll be nice if he hammered his partner for us though. If Neil is town I'm probably going to be hitting myself for a couple days though.

[Formerfish]

If Neil is town then he pretty much got himself lynched. His play was hypocritical, his pushes were entirely superficial, and his play anti-town. He avoided any responsibility with his reads, and refused to be engaged with them either. He has no one here to blame but himself.

Question for the group. If someone is acting scummy, but they are town, is it the voters responsibility to figure out where their read went awry, or is it the votees responsibility to figure out why they are being misread?

[Alina]

True. It's just that I've spent the last couple days pretty sure I caught scum and being all confident in that and if it turned out I was horribly wrong, then, well...that would be quite the blow to my ego, lol.

And, yeah, probably the latter. Neil honestly...I couldn't see anything all that town from him at all. I think that's moreso his fault than mine considering 6/8 people at least were willing to vote him.

[blueheaven]

I'm not buying the whole, "Wat guiz? Hammered? I can't even drink!" stickt because it says in the rules that a lynch will occur when a majority of people vote a player, and in each and every vote count it says with 9 alive, it takes 5 votes for a lynch.

Well, his reasons are reasonable. I'm more suspicious because he said he has caught up with the game, and he would have noticed when BabiSoup put neil at L-1, and Alina taking her vote off, and me questioning them. Not to mention some discussion and analysis(by shadow) about quickhammers. After that, I put neil at L-1, and there was exchanges between me and huntress regarding claims. There should be plenty of clues indicating how sensitive the situation at L-1 is, and why people are wary of a quickhammer.

Although i am convince neil is scum, baezu not appearing is making me more and more paranoid. I voted to get a claim, and I didn't think anyone, town or scum would quickhammer at this stage.

[Alina]

Yeah, this is why I unvoted in the first place, I had a feeling something like this might happen and it did. Blech. Oh well I guess. :/

I'm pretty sure he's scum but the doubts are gonna keep building until I see "Mafia Goon/Roleblocker," pop up as his role. Then I'll cheer.

[Baezu]

VC to come as soon as I get a moment