NY 174: Oldy Mafia 2 (Game Over)

[chamber]

Unvote, vote Untrod Tripod

This is where my mind immediately went if I'm to assume the claim is true. I'm curious why Glork went to MBL.

[Albert B. Rampage]

Unvote: DrippingGoofball
Vote: Glork

Reason?

[petroleumjelly]

Glork,

1.)

Answer my questions. I don't ask them to be asinine. Why are you swearing so much in this game? And do you feel like you swear more as Town or Scum?

2.)

Are you

purposefully

trying to be a jerk in this game? If so, why?

3.)

Explain your case on me again. What makes (or made) you think I was scum. It has felt the entire game that you are pushing me because I am me.

4.)

What do you think of mathcam? You can take your time on this question because I am not looking for an off-the-cuff response.

[Glork]

I don't think it's alignment indicative. For what it's worth, I've toned it down since you complained about it. I don't understand why you're so intent on pursuing an answer from me, when others (KK is the most prominent example I can think of) have, too.

I don't try to purposefully be a jerk to people. Games are for fun, and I don't intentionally seek to ruin someone else's experience (which ties back to what I said above about timing it down, since I didn't realize it bothered you so).

I highlighted the main points. DGB's comment about you looking to very her behavior with a scum game and not a town game resonated with me, and undo didn't seem to be happening so I made the switch. Your posts and questions seem to be designed in such a way to trap unwitting responders, which doesn't strike me as a particularly protown approach to take. I feel like you're on a crusade against playstyles which clash with how you want to do things, rather than a crusade against people who are part of the mafia.

I didn't like the early pressure on MafiaSSK. I haven't really paid close attention to mathcam.



Chamber: I'm really not comfortable with the degree to which MBL has cozied up to me while attacking undo. I also considered UT and still have VitR in the back of my mind, too. But I went to MBL because I got the feeling he knows I'm town and probably won't get lynched and wants to be on my good side when push comes to shove.

[petroleumjelly]

I don't think it's alignment indicative. For what it's worth, I've toned it down since you complained about it. I don't understand why you're so intent on pursuing an answer from me, when others (KK is the most prominent example I can think of) have, too.

I

do

believe swearing is often alignment-indicative in the right context.

I noticed years ago that one of

my

most consistent tells that I was scum was swearing to emphasize my points or to act emotional (because of course swearing makes you sound more authentic and raw -- e.g., why say "I am confident X is Scum" when I can say "I am

damned sure

X is Scum!").

When swearing is added to a post for the seeming purpose of "selling" the post (or "selling" the emotion), I think it is more likely to come from Scum. I have used this tell to fairly good effect (including Georgetown II where I felt Maestro was unnecessarily swearing, Purified Mafia where I felt StrangerCoug was unnecessarily swearing), and this has also caused me to pursue players without explicitly using this reasoning (and so I cannot easily find those games to show more examples).

Some of your posts in particular appear to be trying to sell themselves because you are shouting and swearing. While other players have also cursed in this game, not all cursing is equal; yours in particular has stuck out to me as most likely to be deliberate or calculated. It is not casual cursing -- it is usually cursing either defending your actions or directed at other players.

[Untrod Tripod]

unvote

[MrBuddyLee]

I'm really not comfortable with the degree to which MBL has cozied up to me while attacking undo.

I was just having fun cause I could tell that it was irking you. <3

[Save The Dragons]

Hey PJ, did you get undo's permission to claim for him?

Why does this matter?

[Porochaz]

unvote vote DGB

[CrashTextDummie]

unvote, vote: mathcam

ABR also works.

[Green Crayons]

I'm going to look back at you guys to see if this makes sense, you understand why I'd be incredulous I hope.

I don't. Please explain your incredulity.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Welp.

Unvote, vote: mathcam

[undo]

Bah, so much for peaceful nights.

I can confirm PJ's claim. If anyone still has doubts, take the first letter of every prime-numbered post of mine (including the first, because old-school) and you'll find a crumb there.

I

t is such an honor...

A

nd would you like...

M

afiaSSK's wagon is solely based...

@

M

afiaSSK: Nevermind...

A

ddressing what is put...

S

o how's Paris, CES?...

O

h really? Why?

N

o time for a long post...

[Sotty7]

I could possibly see myself switching to UT as a compromise, he hasn't done much of anything today. Mathcam I still feel is town from Day on interactions mostly. I agree that DGB's analysis was a little superficial which is why my vote has remained, I'm looking to see her reaction to the claims.

Glorks MBL vote is actually pretty tasty.

[Glork]

I don't think it's alignment indicative. For what it's worth, I've toned it down since you complained about it. I don't understand why you're so intent on pursuing an answer from me, when others (KK is the most prominent example I can think of) have, too.

I

do

believe swearing is often alignment-indicative in the right context.

I noticed years ago that one of

my

most consistent tells that I was scum was swearing to emphasize my points or to act emotional (because of course swearing makes you sound more authentic and raw -- e.g., why say "I am confident X is Scum" when I can say "I am

damned sure

X is Scum!").

When swearing is added to a post for the seeming purpose of "selling" the post (or "selling" the emotion), I think it is more likely to come from Scum. I have used this tell to fairly good effect (including Georgetown II where I felt Maestro was unnecessarily swearing, Purified Mafia where I felt StrangerCoug was unnecessarily swearing), and this has also caused me to pursue players without explicitly using this reasoning (and so I cannot easily find those games to show more examples).

Some of your posts in particular appear to be trying to sell themselves because you are shouting and swearing. While other players have also cursed in this game, not all cursing is equal; yours in particular has stuck out to me as most likely to be deliberate or calculated. It is not casual cursing -- it is usually cursing either defending your actions or directed at other players.

Oh. No, that's definitely not alignment-indicative. If anything, it's a protown sign, tbh, as indicated here. I don't care about making friends and getting on people's good side when I'm town. I'm much more inclined to play ball and avoid unnecessary conflict as scum, though. But imo it's pretty neutral here, because I wasn't trying to be a jerk or swear to impress myself upon others.

[Green Crayons]

I'm really not comfortable with the degree to which MBL has cozied up to me while attacking undo.

I was just having fun cause I could tell that it was irking you. <3

VOTE: MBL

[mathcam]

PJ: Why on earth did you claim so pre-emptively? I know there was a little momentum there, but only from people who will seemingly vote for anything that moves. There were at least a few of us who were pretty sold on your townliness. I'm with you on speeding up the game, but that seemed pretty drastic.

GC: Okay -- I don't think the point's worth discussing. But that was my only point

in that post

against ABR, and I disagree that it has anything to do with my distaste at his playstyle. Here is my most recent full argument:

5) I still think ABR is the best candidate. I think he was bussing LML, and got off the wagon any time he thought there was an opportunity to put focus elsewhere. (Note: I'm not attaching this to the argument that LML slipped when he said bussing -- that's irrelevant as far as I'm concerned). I think ABR's slip in 1144 was a genuine scum slip, since as PJ eloquently points out in 1166, the sentence doesn't even make sense if we switch the name out for the correct one (KK -- I don't understand why you don't find that argument convincing). Finally, I think his interactions with DGB today are absurdly anti-town. For example he did seem genuinely convinced I was scum, but then chose to vote DGB out of claimed spite? I find it much more likely he was taking advantage of the "easy target".

I still think ABR is the best lynch, and despite my slightly pro-town vibe from DGB's long analysis (I do tend to have a soft spot for people who appear to try hard), I think she's still second best. I think UT has quickly elevated into second, for being over-defensive when I suggested he might eagerly hop onto any ol' bandwaggon, but then eagerly hopping onto PJ (imo, a pretty silly bandwagon). I am fine with any of those lynches, but still think ABR is the best.

[VitaminR]

Eh, did not see that coming.

Unvote, vote: Glork

[Albert B. Rampage]

Unvote, vote mathcam

Untrod Tripod is suspicious for shamelessly bandwagonning at the most precarious moments. Seems no one else wants to vote him now, so I'll switch my vote back to mathcam, as he's my main suspect now.

[Sotty7]

PJ: Why on earth did you claim so pre-emptively? I know there was a little momentum there, but only from people who will seemingly vote for anything that moves. There were at least a few of us who were pretty sold on your townliness. I'm with you on speeding up the game, but that seemed pretty drastic.

Are you serious? PJ and Undo had become the top compromise lynches and we have about four days give or take to find a lynch. If PJ got the votes off him it was likely Undo would be next. The focus needed to be shifted.

[Green Crayons]

@mathcam:

(shrug) I said "unobtrusive," not "wildly scummy," so it slots you in the "I don't know pile." Play however you want, it wasn't meant as a criticism, just my observation/reaction.

W/R/T ABR: your quoted post only presents two additional points to support your LML suspicion.

(1) I think PJ's "scum slip" argument is not actually sound (I said as much in Post 1171). PJ didn't respond to my post. I don't want him to do so, now. I want you to respond to it.

(2) I think your summary of ABR's vote on DGB is a bit reductionist in light of his reasons as stated alongside the vote (Post 1176) as well as his explanation of his problem with DGB's particular vote on him (Post 1282, Post 1284). Can you tease out this line of your suspicions more?

[DrippingGoofball]

VOTE: UT

[Yosarian2]

unvote:undo

Time to do a little re-reading...

[DrippingGoofball]

PJ: Why on earth did you claim so pre-emptively? I know there was a little momentum there, but only from people who will seemingly vote for anything that moves. There were at least a few of us who were pretty sold on your townliness. I'm with you on speeding up the game, but that seemed pretty drastic.

Are you serious? PJ and Undo had become the top compromise lynches and we have about four days give or take to find a lynch. If PJ got the votes off him it was likely Undo would be next. The focus needed to be shifted.

Yeah, that.

[Yosarian2]

Ok, let me do an ISO of my top suspects. This is going to be a super-long post, so let me apologize for that in advance, but I just want to do a good analysis of the people I'm most suspicious of and then decide who to vote for. Feel free to skim this post if you want.

Glork was trying remarkably hard to derail the LML wagon, and to attack anyone who was pushing it.

Okay, I didn't read every single word, but I've gotten caught up and have thoughts.

So regarding this whole VitR/LML thing, I think I am of the exact opposite opinion that everyone else seems to hold. I'm feeling a slightly scummy read on VitR, and I'm really unenthusiastic about the LML bandwagon (even though I have town reads on GC/ABR/possibly UT).

I really want to see Seol respond to the whole "lynching MafiaSSK because of a theory argument is bad" criticism of his earlier posts.

I'm wary of CES. I want to go reference the MLP game we played because something he said reminded me of that game, but I'll check that out later.

Yos's switch from VitR to LML is particularly cringe-worthy and smells like scum trying to ride the tides to an easy lynch.

Vote: Yosarian2

I am genuinely curious to know why people think LML went through the VC analysis to try to frame/jump on someone who hadn't had any attention whatsoever. Yeah, he lacked context as PJ indicated, but I'm really really really not seeing the connect between what LML did and an actual scum motivation. PJ's vote also feels in that opportunistic category. There's not a lot going on, and people might be feeling antsy after the downtime, so why not punish LML?



Basically, I want to lynch one of the following people:
Seol (pending further contributions, possibly?)
VitR
Yos2
petroleumjelly
Maybe CES (pending ~reasons~)

Hey Yos, since you're here, what motivation do you see for scum-LML parking his vote on UT? Saying "this guy's votes are bad" and waiting for a response/reaction (which hasn't even come, I might note) seems pretty okay to me. Why is this such an issue for you?

And so on.

He kept attacking PJ as well. I'm really having trouble seeing how Glork reads LML as town and both PJ and me as scum here. LML seemed so obvscum and PJ seemed so obvtown to me, I'm really having trouble understanding how Glork got the opposite reads.

He reluctantly went to LML at the end of the day, saying it was because he wanted to prevent a bookitty lynch. Still, I really don't get Glork's play day 1 at all; almost none of it makes sense to me, which is very unusual, I usually get what Glork's trying to do.

And then he rolls into day 2 going after everyone who was actually trying to lynch LML, I guess because of the "bussing" quote. The amount of empathes people put on this bit of total WIFOM makes me uncomfortable, but Glork wasn't the only one doing that by a long shot, so that might be just a playstyle thing.

I also hate this meta-defense Glork makes later in the day:

Like, I'm actually legit mad that people suspect me, because I would NEVER let my ego allow me to be "wrong" about LML as scum. I realize that's self-meta and probably won't be believed, but I need to say it. I was adamant about not-liking the LML lynch, and I'm almost 90% certain that as scum, I'd have made some allowance for myself to try to gain credibility by deciding LML was scum. Even after the alleged slip, I stated AS I VOTED LML that it was merely "better than a Bookitty lynch." I was working and just as easily could have not checked the site (or not posted) and let that ride out to a no-lynch or a Bookitty-lynch.

Just on principle, I always get more suspicious of someone when they try a defense as blatantly WIFOM as "I defended scum so I must be town because I wouldn't defend scum if I was scum." With Glork, I think that may be more playstyle then anything, I've seen him make posts like this before, so I'm going to call this null-ish, but it still makes me uncomfortable.

Later in the day, jumps on the Undo wagon, and then the PJ wagon. I don't have a problem with his case against Undo, since I felt the same way myself. But his jump on the PJ wagon just seems terrible.

I'm content with a PJ lynch.

Vote: PJ

Overall, I really don't have a good feeling about Glork this game. Basically I just don't get his play here at all if he was town. He's made the argument several times that he wouldn't play like this as scum either, and maybe that's true, but overall I just don't get a good vibe from him.

Ok, next suspect: CES
______________________________________________________________________________________________
As I said before, the biggest thing CES did on day 1 was just to tunnel on Seol/Bookitty to an almost obsessive degree, and he never mentioned LML at all, which is a huge strike against him.

Other then that, he made some weirdly ambiguous comments about a few other people's alignments early...

Tigris seems nice and easy to read.

I agree with CTD that chamber's alignment is fairly obvious at this point.

And then there was this post, where CES's scum list was basically Seol+the 3 most townie-looking people in the game at the time, which was just bizzare:

Scum team: Seol/ABR/Green Crayons/DrippingGoofball/Porochaz

And then I think he attacks PJ, although I'm not sure why:

What makes you think it can't be Seol and Djelibeybi?

And then he basically just goes on to try to get Bookitty lynched for the next 10 or so posts in a row.

Today, all he did was vote mathcam, then move to Undo, then move back to mathcam after the mason claim.

Overall, I still think CES would be a good lynch. The fact that he didn't say anything about the LML wagon at all on day 1 is a huge scumtell, and nothing else he's done this game strikes me as especially town-motivated.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Next: mathcam

SSK came off seeming mildly scummy, and got wagoned for it. Standard early game stuff, playstyle mostly; probably nothing that says much abotu his alignment. In the short time he was here, he voted Glork, Tigras, then FOS'd ABR, the voted VitR, then voted CES. It's worth mentioning that LML did a weird move where he stayed on the Tigras wagon but FOS'd MafiaSSK, and then later gave conflicting reasons for why he did that, if people want to try to read the WIFOM tea leaves there.

Mathcam comes in, decides to leave vote on CES at first. Then moves over to the BooKitty wagon. He then tries to argue that BooKitty's resignation post was probably scum motivated. He tries to imply that the BooKitty wagon would be especally informative somehow, but when I questioned him about this, he didn't seem to have a good answer for how.

After I said that I was more then 50% confident that LML was scum, Mathcam promised to "go through his posts again". He later makes a somewhat strange comment about LML that seems to try to have it both ways:

Rereading LML, I can't say that I've found anything unusually scummy from him. I will say that his posting style has always left me feeling a little uncomfortable, but I'm pretty sure that this has happened as both town and scum. I will note that out of my entire read, there was no instances in which I marked him down with a particularly pro-town vote. He'd probably be in my top-5-scummiest.

I find it very strange, though, that if LML was in his top 5 scummiest, he never seemed to consider joining the wagon later, not even as a compromise.

Now reading Day 2. As I indicated earlier, the whole interaction where PJ asked Mathcam to see part of his notes, Mathcam agreed, and then Mathcam FOS'd PJ in response, just seems really weird behavior on Mathcam's part. It seems obvious to me that a pro-town PJ trying to figure out Mathcam's alignment would ask him questions like that; if mathcam didn't want to share his notes I wouldn't have had a problem with that, but sharing your notes and then claiming to be suspicious of the person who asked makes no sense to me.

In any case, I don't see much real scumhunting going on from Mathcam on day 2. He doesn't actually place a vote until he'd made literally 20 posts on day 2, most of which were irrelevent, and when he does he puts a vote on ABR with little explination. (Although looking back, he did make a case earlier on ABR being potentially linked to LML). He makes a case against ABR again in his post 44. Overall, though, there is remarkably little scumhunting going on here.

I do give him minor pro-town points for saying that he found DGB town-ish after her analysis post, that makes sense. Overall, though, mathcam is posting a lot of stuff but I just don't see a lot of pro-town motivation here.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Overall, I think I'm going to go back to a

Vote: CES

for now. Willing to join either a Mathcam or a Glork wagon as well.