NY 174: Oldy Mafia 2 (Game Over)

[Albert B. Rampage]

Unvote, vote VitaminR

Join me.

[Green Crayons]

I'm not voting mathcam because I'm not convinced that he's scum. I think that all (but maybe one?) of your remaining scum will be found among {MBL, UT, STD, CES, VitR}

I'm down with a MBL lynch.

(1) Voted tigris in his initial post of the game, on May 14. (Post 41.) Didn't switch that vote until he voted LML,

on June 11

. (Post 832.) There's wanting your vote to be used wisely, and then there's simply refusing to have a voting trail. MBL did the latter.

(2) MBL said this:

LML

isn't really playing like LML-town

, but his wagon has a poor foundation--two players(now one) who gave no reasons, one who says "gut", and one who bandwagoned Mr. Gut at his request. I prefer wagons on which people can be held accountable for their logic. LML suspects STD, who jumped to LML at UT's request, and who suspects LML for reasons that haven't been fully explained. LML doesn't seem to be entirely consistent when discussing his earlier votes/FOSes and the strength behind his convictions. All in all, the situation is actionable, and

Lee's is probably the wagon I'd move to at the moment if a vig put a gun to my head.

But did not vote for LML until 500 posts later.

(3)

I find it especially odd that no one at all has called out CTD for being active all over the site, but largely ignoring this game.

You've got us. It's a 21 scum/1 town game--congrats on your victory.

Scum humor.

(4) Big pusher of the KK suspicions at the end of D1, but of course did not vote for KK. (Post 786, Post 798, Post 800, Post 805.)

(5) His lead up to his LML vote was scummy.

(A) Only laid the foundation for his vote switch (Post 816, Post 820) once LML-wagon was gaining votes (was at 6, but had gained 3 in the past 3 days). His foundation was not enough for him to actually vote, though, because he waited until he was number 9 on the wagon. (Post 832.)

(B) The foundation for his vote was a lot of words to say what a bunch of other people had said: LML's vote count analysis was scummy. Yes, yes it was. MBL's extensive use of words to make that one point, when that point had been made long ago, but which had inspired MBL enough to consider LML suspicious enough to talk about at length in the final hours of D1 -- but not suspicious enough to justify a vote when those suspicious are stated -- smacks of a reluctant scum trying to look productive about suspecting a scum buddy, and hoping that the tide doesn't require him to vote LML.

(6) This:

I'm really not comfortable with the degree to which MBL has cozied up to me while attacking undo.

I was just having fun cause I could tell that it was irking you. <3

-----

Two days until deadline? Plenty of time.

UNVOTE: Glork
VOTE: MBL

Still willing to vote Glork. Not interested in mathcam, Vitamin, UT, or ABR. I have no feelings about CES.

[Porochaz]

GC, that was a truly awful case.

[DrippingGoofball]

Do

you

have any questions for me, DGB?

Not really, I'm still bugged by you thinking ABR was an actual cop with a guilty on you, and berating me for outing him.

[DrippingGoofball]

GC, that was a truly awful case.

I know right

It reads like:

(1) something neutral
(2) something neutral
(3) something neutral
(4) something neutral
(5) something neutral
(6) something neutral

conclusion: player is scum

[MrBuddyLee]

@Crayons

, I think your (1) and (2) are the same point--I stayed on KK all day despite finding LML "off". Fair point.

Your (3) and (6) are the same point--humor is scummy. Sue me for trying to have fun in my one game in like three years or whatever.

I believe your (4) is incorrect? Tigris = KK.

As for your (5), you twist the situation to make it sound as sketchy as possible. This, for example:

The foundation for his(MBL's) (LML)vote was a lot of words to say what a bunch of other people had said: LML's vote count analysis was scummy.

Is total crap. I'm not going to annoy people by quotestriping here, but on a skim I believe my post contains at LEAST six observations no one else made about LML's play. I touched on his overconfidence in PJ's guilt, his failure to remark on PJ's vote history despite being a "votes matter" guy, his pitting of PJ and Glork against each other, his failure to take into account that Nati might be scum, etc etc.

I also analyzed Bookitty in similar detail, found her less problematic than LML, and posted in depth about it.

Why do you think I was analyzing and posting in-depth about both players like 16 hours before deadline? So I could stay on KK at deadline? So I could further my goal of a non-LML lynch or a no-lynch? That's quite a stretch for you to believe. I analyzed both players, slept on it, got up eight hours after my post, and voted LML to break an 8-8 tie a few hours before deadline.

As for who to lynch today, been trying a VCA based on sort-of-known alignments while watching the USA/Germany game.. but it still all comes back (imo) to the timing of votes and the quality of cases when cases are made. I'm probably being thrown by tone, because when I combine the VCA with my tone reads, I don't end up with enough scum. More later today.

[Albert B. Rampage]

Ignore MBL case, vote VitaminR.

[DrippingGoofball]

vote VitaminR.

Are there even reasons???

[Save The Dragons]

I feel like mathcam has been pretty vague with his reads: he claims several people are suspicious without being able to explain why. The reasons he does give about Bookitty had to do with Seol and he also discredited it in the post he gave those reasons. Later on he insists that Bookitty is one of his top suspects.

I feel like if DGB were such a possibility in regards to him being torn between lynching ABR and DGB, there would be more specific evidence that he was interest in DGB. I can't really find any, and it makes me uncomfortable, because if DGB had pulled that cop thing with me, my posts would be more accusatory than incredulous. It's possible mathcam is more cautious than I, or it's possible he knows DGB's alignment: he knows she is town so he's not sure what to make of this crazy action (or they're both scum and this is some crazy distancing).

Another problem is that if I look at the slot with the mindset of LML's partner, some of LML's play and the slot's play makes sense. This proves little on its own but it does make me feel a little better.

I don't really care that the +/- didn't have post numbers. That's his notes, he can use them however he wants. But I'm not seeing any correlation between the +/- and anything else he's posting or voting, so it seems to me like it's just an attempt at busy work to create an artifact that appears helpful but is really doing nothing. That bothers me. I don't need a formula that converts all those pieces of data into a scum read, but I do need

something

that explains why the hell you're going to all that trouble in the first place.

There's nothing about mathcam's meta that is involved in my opinion of him, so I'm unsatisfied with the defense that people are jumping on him because of his meta and that ABR's meta is perfect. (I know that this post was in response to Yos's question, not the end all defense of everything. I bring this up more because of VitR's praise of mathcam's post, not the defense itself.) I don't find ABR's posts helpful, but at the moment I don't find his posts to be disingenuous. I think the argument against mathcam is not 100% zomg confirmed scum but it's certainly good enough for now.

[Albert B. Rampage]

I will post a case in time.

[DrippingGoofball]

Time is running out.

[Albert B. Rampage]

mathcam's Post 1578 reads pretty genuine to me. Not a fan of this wagon.

I know this to be from a scum's perspective. I can't articulate my thoughts very well, but VitaminR sees mathcam as town, because he knows he's town, unlike the rest of the townies who see mathcam in shades of gray. Our attention isn't honed in on every genuine thing he says, because we recognize the ambiguity in his posts and can't relate to him that much.

VitaminR doesn't know what opinion to have, so he invents an opinion, and it happens to coincide nicely with what he knows, that mathcam is town. At this point, mathcam lynch will probably happen, and he's happy for it to happen without him. He's not pushing alternate bandwagons because he's happy seeing "genuine mathcam" getting lynched.

Eh, did not see that coming.

Unvote, vote: Glork

This vote is such a throwaway. "I can't vote for that guy so I will vote this guy so that I'm voting someone".

----

If you look at VitaminR's post 58 onward, his statements and questions are painfully obviously filler. Noise. A pony show he has to put on to keep him off the radar.

I'm convinced that VitaminR is scum from his posts in the last several pages.

I do agree and can relate with some of his sentiments, however, such as:

Unvote, Vote: Glork

Glork's been bothering me all day. Also, this DGB wagon is real easy and I don't like how he's pushing it. Posts like this one seem real simplistic for someone like Glork:

I don't think I've seen DGB simply acquiesce to being lynched as either alignment. The impression I got from her "I give up" post is that it worked for Bookie, so it might just work for her.

Glork REALLY DOES have a way too straightforward and simplistic game.

Although I'm not sure if VitaminR is just parrotting me, like he parrotted chamber criticizing Yosarian's quote of CES.

I wouldn't play my hand this early unless I had something serious to go on. It's VitaminR. I urge you all to join it.

PS: Pretty much all of my previous suspicions, before VitaminR, were very weak. That's why I made two mistakes in a post about who I thought was scum; my heart wasn't in it. I always fabricate reads and reasons to get the ball rolling, when I've got nothing. Fake your reads until you have them.

[Albert B. Rampage]

VitR should be our lynch today.

Ha, you can't seriously believe that. I've found your scumhunting underwhelming all game and this would be the icing on the cake. Please explain why you would think this.

Disengenuous.

[Albert B. Rampage]

VitaminR spends a lot more time defending other players than investigating and pressuring. He parks his vote on Glork for most of the day. Says there's something "off" about PJ and joins the bandwagon, then goes back to Glork. This is all very, very suspicious behavior. I could quote, and analyze, and write paragraphs, but I won't.

I'll summarize my reasons instead:

-defense/offense ratio
-park vote on Glork
-disengenuous posts
-tries hard to appear like he's contributing
-seeing things from a scum's perspective
-more calculation and precision in his posts to convey a deliberate image of him

Please let me know if you guys have questions for me. I think I've struck gold.

[VitaminR]

Ha! I appreciate the effort, ABR, but sadly you're completely off-base. There's no calculation in any of my posts, it is all totally transparent.

You're not looking at my recent posts in any sort of context and it shows:
- I've thought mathcam town pretty much since Day 1 and have never understood the wagon on him. And I have said as much. I only made that post because his frustration in Post 1578 clinched that read for me.
- I didn't switch to Glork for no reason. I was voting Glork well before that today and have articulated my reasons for doing so (same thing for pj, who was my main suspect coming into the day for reasons I articulated then, which went way beyond just there being something "off").

[Yosarian2]

I feel like I'm getting attacked a lot for my playstyle for a game in which every other player's idiosyncrasies are swept under the run for "being their meta." I try very hard to figure out everyone's alignment -- good or bad, I'm just not as successful as most others in believing I have done so. I don't typically push that hard for my lynches, but I listen when other people make their cases, and evaluate whether or not I think that case has merit.

I don't think this is a meta thing. I don't expect you to be hammer repeatedly at people in the ABR style, I expect you to be more genteel and logical, which is fine. But while being logical and reasonable, you can still try to get things done; like I said, you were trying quite hard to get BooKitty lynched on day 1, with several posts in a row dedicated to that. I don't feel the same sense of urgency from you today that I did yesterday.

[undo]

I could see VitR be scum, actually. But he's not our lynch today.

Currently I'm OK with lynching Glork, MBL or mathcam.

[Bookitty]

I'm sticking with mathcam for now, but I do have a comment and then a question:

I think Chamber is town for this (from my notes):

Chamber's Post 320: "I'm not really sure how I feel. There have certainly been some things that bothered me. I've refrained from speaking about them because I'm hoping town LML will self correct when/if he stops being pressured so much."

I see no way that scum-Chamber would go out of his way to call scumbuddy LML town in this way. It's way too obvious and it would be just as easy to indicate a null-read that wouldn't cause problems later in the game.

So my question is this: Chamber, do you feel that CES has been following your votes to an unusual degree in this game? Or is this normal meta for him when you play together?

[Bookitty]

To put it in context, the above quote is in response to VitaminR who was attacking LML just before that and asked Chamber what he thought.

The only really weird thing I found in my notes about VitaminR (who I have as attacking LML all through the game, pretty much) is this:

Post 343, LML: "I think anyone who is looking to create a correlation between me and VitR is acting certainly scummy and may very well be trying to domino lynches. Although he's attacking me, I currently have a pro-town read on VitR. Knowing my alignment, I believe that anyone who is trying to say "they can't have the same alignment" are not only pushing for a lynch of me today, but will also be pushing for a lynch of VitR after I flip blue."

I thought that was odd on the reread, but I have no meta on LML and it looks like deliberate WIFOM to me.

[chamber]

I wasn't calling LML town there? I did have a pretty null read on him. I was just stating that I expected an LML that was town to correct his mistakes given time (or rather given a lack of pressure). A variant of the point I thought CES was making about Tigris.

CES and me can be buddy buddy. He can follow my votes and he can not, I can follow his and I can not. It depends. This is on the higher end of what I'd expect though.

[Untrod Tripod]

VitaminR spends a lot more time defending other players than investigating and pressuring. He parks his vote on Glork for most of the day. Says there's something "off" about PJ and joins the bandwagon, then goes back to Glork. This is all very, very suspicious behavior. I could quote, and analyze, and write paragraphs, but I won't.

I'll summarize my reasons instead:

-defense/offense ratio
-park vote on Glork
-disengenuous posts
-tries hard to appear like he's contributing
-seeing things from a scum's perspective
-more calculation and precision in his posts to convey a deliberate image of him

Please let me know if you guys have questions for me. I think I've struck gold.

I tend to agree that VitR and Glrok could be scum

[DrippingGoofball]

I don't think I've seen DGB simply acquiesce to being lynched as either alignment. The impression I got from her "I give up" post is that it worked for Bookie, so it might just work for her.

Quickie question. On the subject of me "giving up," how often have you seen me self-vote?

[Save The Dragons]

Your (3) and (6) are the same point--humor is scummy. Sue me for trying to have fun in my one game in like three years or whatever.

I heard from someone that humor represented a guilty conscience or a need to distract though.

[MrBuddyLee]

@mathcam

, can you please explain how you got from:

In fact, I think a

FOS: PJ

is merited for this.

The point of my FOS was that PJ has now twice demanded people post things that will inevitably bring negative attention toward them. Pretty nice ploy.

to

PJ: Why on earth did you claim so pre-emptively? I know there was a little momentum there, but only from people who will seemingly vote for anything that moves. There were at least a few of us who were pretty

sold on your townliness

.

You said yesterday that you're not usually super confident in your reads, so saying you were sold on PJ's townliness looks like a bit of an overstatement. If you were truly sold, did you consider lobbying against the wagon? To be fair, I think you did lobby against the undo-wagon.

[MrBuddyLee]

I heard from someone that humor represented a guilty conscience or a need to distract though.

Haha, touche. I really enjoyed your lighthearted posts Day One. The only reason I spoke out about those specific instances of humor was because they accompanied two vote-switches that I found suspect. Now that undo's decently likely town, your switch off of him and on to Boo is less problematic, so my point ends up largely horse crap.