NY 174: Oldy Mafia 2 (Game Over)

[VitaminR]

That's fair enough, pj, and I apologize for being a bit harsh. My base frustration level with this game is a little high right now. It's not really that your vote on chamber was that bad, I sort of see where you're coming from. I just don't think pushing chamber in that particular way is all that helpful (voting him like that just makes him more likely to dig in his heels, to borrow a phrase from Yos). So that what I was responding to.

I can see how you would draw a parallel with C&H. I don't think it's necessarily unfair to say that I've been testing out my votes a little bit, because I've been genuinely unsure about my scum reads after your claim. I've found it hard to settle on a new suspect. I didn't even really have that much confidence in my Glork vote at the end. In C&H, I did that purposefully, because I was just trying to be as cautious and inoffensive as possible, while never giving out strong town reads, and I was constantly nervous at being the only scum in a game with lots of strong town players.

[Patrick]

Votecount

Sotty7 (1) -- chamber
Cogito Ergo Sum (3) -- mathcam, Sotty7, Save the Dragons
mathcam (1) -- Cogito Ergo Sum
Save the Dragons (3) -- SpyreX, DrippingGoofball, Green Crayons
chamber (2) -- petroleumjelly, undo
VitaminR (3) -- Albert B. Rampage, Yosarian2, Bookitty

Not voting: MrBuddyLee, Porochaz, Kublai Khan, VitaminR
17 alive, 9 to lynch.

[Yosarian2]

I explicitly address this point above. Did you read my reply? Where are my attempts to manipulate chamber? The ONE question I asked him? Is that it?

(shrug) Weather you're "trying to manipulate" consciously him or not, it's very natural for scum to try to find townies willing to "ally" with them, and that's what your posting history looks like. Sometimes this is a careful manipulative plan, sometimes it's more a subconscious instinct, but either way it's common. The fact that you know chamber well makes hypo-scum-VitR more likely to try that.

Town usually are paranoid about buddying that much, because they don't really trust anyone. Scum, on the other hand, already know who is town; it's much more common behavior to see from scum.

You really think it's realistic to expect me "try and make peace between them"? I'm not their camp counselor. I posted my opinion to counterbalance pj's, which I thought would be more effective. I concede your point that I was probably too harsh, though.

Frankly, if you see two confirmed town masons trying to scumhunt, trying to get some answers and to use pressure to gather information, what I would expect is that you either support and help them do what they're doing, or stay our of their way and see if they find out anything interesting. If you were absolutely convinced that it was a damaging town v town fight, then maybe I could see you try to "make peace", but you weren't doing that either.

Basically you have to understand here that I have limited information to work off of; I have to figure out if you're town or not based on your behavior, and right now, your behavior doesn't look town, since I can think possible anti-town motives for your behavior, and I can't think of any pro-town motives for your behavior.

The response on PJ was just the straw that broke the camel's back; as I made clear, you were already one of my top 3 suspects. Other then your early vote for LML, your voting record doesn't really look town, and the pattern you're making of attacking and defending people doesn't really look town.

PJ knows what he's doing. He's one of the stronger mafia players I've ever played with, and everything he does has a purpose.

I can understand blowing the questions off if you're not sure of his alignment or if you're worried he's scum trying to make you look bad, but if you accept that he's town, then not co-operating with him doesn't make sense.

I don't even care about chamber's stubborness here; I think it's anti-town for him to refuse to answer questions, but it's not scummy, imho, there's no real scum motivation for him here. But you supporting him in answering questions, there is.

Also, if you were town who actually thought PJ was scum earlier and now know that you were totally wrong, I would expect your behavior toward PJ to have changed more then it has.

Whether I find his questioning useful is not an alignment-dependent opinion. I'm not going to unquestionably venerate his methods, like you seem to be doing, just because he's a claimed mason.

(shrug) I don't care if you "unquestionably venerate his methods." But it's obviously anti-town to get in the way of a pair of masons trying to do something useful, like trying to get answers from a player to find out his alignment.

Someone we KNOW is town is trying to scumhunt, trying to gather information from another player. Maybe we'll learn something, maybe we won't. Why wouldn't you let him try and see what he finds out?

[VitaminR]

(shrug) Weather you're "trying to manipulate" consciously him or not, it's very natural for scum to try to find townies willing to "ally" with them, and that's what your posting history looks like. Sometimes this is a careful manipulative plan, sometimes it's more a subconscious instinct, but either way it's common. The fact that you know chamber well makes hypo-scum-VitR more likely to try that.

Town usually are paranoid about buddying that much, because they don't really trust anyone. Scum, on the other hand, already know who is town; it's much more common behavior to see from scum.

You could just as easily spin this the other way. Scum are wary of getting accused of buddying (it's a very common accusation to throw around) and town have no real reason to fear defending someone they think is town.

In any case, I've been getting accused of buddying all game. You think I've been sticking with it because of 'a subconscious scum instinct' to buddy, knowing I'm going to get this kind of flak for it, or because I legitimately have strong reasons to think those players are town?

Basically you have to understand here that I have limited information to work off of; I have to figure out if you're town or not based on your behavior, and right now, your behavior doesn't look town, since I can think possible anti-town motives for your behavior, and I can't think of any pro-town motives for your behavior.

I've told you the pro-town motives, the ones that are actually the truth. You just don't want to listen to them. It feels like you've already made up your mind and prefer to stick to outlandishly devious scum theories because it makes an easier narrative for you to just be convinced I'm scum than to actually try and see things from my perspective.

(shrug) I don't care if you "unquestionably venerate his methods." But it's obviously anti-town to get in the way of a pair of masons trying to do something useful, like trying to get answers from a player to find out his alignment.

Someone we KNOW is town is trying to scumhunt, trying to gather information from another player. Maybe we'll learn something, maybe we won't. Why wouldn't you let him try and see what he finds out?

I'm not standing in his way at all, though. Anyone can see that his methods aren't going to lead where he wants them to go. The questioning isn't happening regardless of what I do. The only thing I was trying to stand in the way off were the useless throwing around of votes over it, which, in my opinion, just serve as a distraction.

[chamber]

I don't have time to metadive yos right now and seem to remember my gut being unreliable at reading him. Does anyone else have a bad taste from some of his recent posts?

[Green Crayons]

Yes.

[Albert B. Rampage]

Not really.

[Albert B. Rampage]

VitaminR is using a lot of AtE that I'm obliged to disregard.

[Albert B. Rampage]

Not voting: MrBuddyLee, Porochaz, Kublai Khan, VitaminR

Yeah, you guys should vote one of the main bandwagons so we can get information.

[chamber]

VitaminR is using a lot of AtE that I'm obliged to disregard.

No hes not? I don't think hes actually used any?

[Albert B. Rampage]

False.

[chamber]

False.

I'm willing to believe he's used some. It didn't stand out though. He absolutely can't be characterized as using a lot of it though. That's just an outright lie.

[Albert B. Rampage]

More than 3 times.

[chamber]

Go ahead and quote them.

[Albert B. Rampage]

Go find them.

[chamber]

If you don't want to that's fine, just don't expect your assertion to mean anything to me.

[SpyreX]

I have yet to understand a single one of your posts. If you want to lynch me blindly over one "tell" in 2000 posts then w/e but if you are expecting a response from me you're going to have to explain yourself. The fact that you're so deadset on this one thing and just say "look, he totes did it again!" makes me wary.

I'm not "expecting" a response. From you at least.

But this game likes to get tangled around itself so I'll make it abundantly clear so the others can get a murderin':

StD's response to Zor wasn't centered around discourse. It was a very focused kind of dismissal.

When DGB's magic cauldron started brewing and pointing its nightmare arrows his way the response was "that's shit." and then half-joking dismissals.

Not the town affrontery kind.

The scum "caught for the wrong reasons kind".

Much like saying the lynch now is blindly decided.

[Save The Dragons]

I'm not "expecting" a response. From you at least.

Too bad I like to talk.

StD's response to Zor wasn't centered around discourse. It was a very focused kind of dismissal.

As far as I'm concerned I corrected a dangerous assumption a few people were making, and haven't really said anything else about him.

Your argument is "well, I know I'm town, so I know STD was doing a bad," rings kind of hollow.

If that's incorrect then I'm sorry, I don't understand your posts.

When DGB's magic cauldron started brewing and pointing its nightmare arrows his way the response was "that's shit."

A viewpoint shared by many other members of the town. I also explained why it was shit. Which you seemed to ignore in favor of taking my post out of context and quoting my one post asking if the scumputer was crap.

Lastly, the post you quoted (in an earlier post of yours) was in response to this mocking post:

You should be saying that the scumputer is crap because I'm scum.

So forgive me if I get a little frustrated when I'm trying to figure out what was going on in the shitstorm DGB launched on the thread, tried to ask whether it was legit, pointed out a fallacy that I found, and basically got told that I'm scum for doing my due diligence. I don't know if she's scum or not, I'm pretty sure she is but if I'm wrong I'd like to figure out. Throwing crap in my face just makes me want to ignore her because she's distracting me.

This is also my first time seeing the scumputer so I'm going to be a little more like "wtf is going on" and a little less "oh it's just DGB, doin' her thing."

and then half-joking dismissals.

Not the town affrontery kind.

The scum "caught for the wrong reasons kind".

I'll never tell a joke again.
(sorry, that might be too subtle. that was a joke).

Much like saying the lynch now is blindly decided.

I'm sorry, I don't understand your post.

[Yosarian2]

Anyone can see that his methods aren't going to lead where he wants them to go. The questioning isn't happening regardless of what I do. The only thing I was trying to stand in the way off were the useless throwing around of votes over it, which, in my opinion, just serve as a distraction.

Uh. If you're trying to get soemone to answer questions, and they flatly refuse to do so, basically your only option at that point is to try to increase the pressure on that person until they do so. Why would you think that's "useless"? It's basically central to the entire way the game of mafia works.

[Yosarian2]

I don't have time to metadive yos right now and seem to remember my gut being unreliable at reading him. Does anyone else have a bad taste from some of his recent posts?

...because I'm trying to figure out VitR's alignment?

[Yosarian2]

Oh, to answer the question:

You think I've been sticking with it because of 'a subconscious scum instinct' to buddy, knowing I'm going to get this kind of flak for it, or because I legitimately have strong reasons to think those players are town?

If you think a player is town, then you have a strong reason to defend that person, or to work with that person. You have zero reason, though, to buddy him, to try to make him "like" you, unless you're scum.

You keep trying to confuse the issue here, but buddying someone is entirely different from defending them or working with them. It's about trying to manipulate *them* to make them think that *you* are on their side.

[Yosarian2]

I've told you the pro-town motives, the ones that are actually the truth. You just don't want to listen to them.

And, for the record, no, you have not. You have not given any explanation yet for how your buddying of chamber or your trolling of PJ was supposed to help the town win, which is what "pro-town" means.

[DrippingGoofball]

I don't know if she's scum or not, I'm pretty sure she is but if I'm wrong I'd like to figure out. Throwing crap in my face just makes me want to ignore her because she's distracting me.

You have twisted your mind into some pretzel...

You don't know whether or not I'm scum
But simultaneously, you're pretty sure that I am
However, if you're wrong you'd like to figure it out
The way you want to figure it out is by ignoring me
Because I am distracting you

[chamber]

I don't have time to metadive yos right now and seem to remember my gut being unreliable at reading him. Does anyone else have a bad taste from some of his recent posts?

...because I'm trying to figure out VitR's alignment?

It doesn't look like you are trying to figure out his alignment, it looks like you are trying to smear him.

[DrippingGoofball]

It doesn't look like you are trying to figure out his alignment, it looks like you are trying to smear him.

I'm beginning to get this sense, too, since Yosarian is singularly focused. But then VitaminR is an enigma.