NY 174: Oldy Mafia 2 (Game Over)

[petroleumjelly]

PJ you're town and I love you but your reads suck eggs. KK can be vig'ed. Sotty7 votes are awesome.

Actually, my reads have been fine. I played my last game with Sotty7 (Georgetown II) and I have paid particular attention to her posts in this game. I am confident Sotty7 is Town. The wagon must move elsewhere, and it should do so quickly.

[VitaminR]

Still needed to respond to some MBL stuff.

1)

Why did you find PJ's jump to a LML wagon "late"?

In post 417 on May 29th, PJ's first post after the server outage and two weeks before deadline, PJ voted LML, #3 spot on the wagon, with a bulky case. He actually re-infused the wagon that had been defused by STD, ABR, DGB and you leaving it. Especially considering the sizable case PJ made on LML in that post, I'm amazed by your characterization of his vote and posting re: LML. Can you please clarify?

I didn't meant late in the sense of late on the wagon. What I was referring to is that the LML wagon had existed for some time, pj had failed to comment on it (failed to say much at all about LML) and then came out with that post. It felt like a big change to go from not saying substantial about a player being discussed prominently to mounting an all-out attack.

2) Did you also find STD's vote jumps on and off LML suspect? Both PJ and STD got back on LML June 9th, #4 and #5 on the LMLwagon. PJ had been on LML May 29-June 4. STD was on LML May 19th and 20th and then off immediately after the server outage 5/27.

STD's and PJ's vote patterns regarding LML are almost identical, only shifted by a few days.

Why find PJ suspect for that and not STD?

I confess that I didn't notice StD's vote switches that much at a time, because I was already reading him as solidly town at this point. But I see your point.

3)

Did you find STD's case on LML more convincing or less "bussy" than PJ's?

You made a big deal about LML and busing (both your D2 votes were on LML-voters), so I'd figure you would have had your eye on both PJ and STD start of D2. I'd like to know why you selectively went after PJ and ignored STD, who was the other obvious bi-directional LML bus candidate.

Like I said, StD made it into my town column fairly early. pj already stuck out for me Day 1 and that's why I perhaps tunneled on him selectively a bit. In addition, it wasn't just the fact that they voted each other or that vote switches were involved or anything, I thought at the time that the pj-LML interactions read oddly in a way that the StD-LML ones never did.

4) You say no other attackers triggered LML's "strange OMGUS", but LML specifically said that ABR did, and it appears that STD also did.

Would you agree that LML was "strange OMGUSsy" on StD?

Yeah, you probably have a point there. I see what you mean and, like I said earlier, I can see the merit behind your case on StD.

@VitR

, what changed between:

Also, I'd totally lynch undo.

Of course his long-awaited analysis post lands him on the wagon du jour... Just like it did I'm Bookitty Day One.

I agree with Glork on undo, though.

and

That undo wagon grew rapidly out of nowhere and doesn't seem based on very much.

MBL, I think you also asked for my opinion of undo. It's not like I have strong reasons for thinking he's town,

I just don't think he's done anything particularly scummy.

Why did you agree with Glork about undo being a good lynch if undo hadn't done anything particularly scummy?

I also noted that D1 you didn't unvote LML and vote PJ until immediately after Glork defended LML and put PJ on his short lynchlist. Looks a little suck-uppity, which is bizarre considering Glork was a suspect of yours.

The part that I agreed with Glork about was the second sentence, not the first. It was just saying that I too found undo's analysis a little too self-serving, not that I wanted to lynch him. I didn't really note it as particularly scummy in my own mind. Townies too often come up with analyses that conveniently land them on the wagon du jour.

As for the second comment: Glork was never a suspect of mine Day 1 and the way he articulated his pj suspicion then was specifically what made me rethink my vote at the time (the words he used described well what had irked me about pj and seeing my own thoughts echoed convinced me that I perhaps had dismissed my initial suspicions too quickly).

[VitaminR]

I like the Sotty wagon best out of the options on the table, unless someone wants to lynch Yos, which I would also be up for.

Actually, my reads have been fine. I played my last game with Sotty7 (Georgetown II) and I have paid particular attention to her posts in this game. I am confident Sotty7 is Town. The wagon must move elsewhere, and it should do so quickly.

Really? Doesn't she seem more assertive in that game? Reading up on this claim actually made me

more

suspicious of Sotty. It didn't take long for me to find posts in Georgetown II with aggressive scum reads (e.g. "such-and-such needs to die", "you're scum"), for example. She's being much more diplomatic in this game.

[petroleumjelly]

I like the Sotty wagon best out of the options on the table, unless someone wants to lynch Yos, which I would also be up for.

Actually, my reads have been fine. I played my last game with Sotty7 (Georgetown II) and I have paid particular attention to her posts in this game. I am confident Sotty7 is Town. The wagon must move elsewhere, and it should do so quickly.

Really? Doesn't she seem more assertive in that game? Reading up on this claim actually made me

more

suspicious of Sotty. It didn't take long for me to find posts in Georgetown II with aggressive scum reads (e.g. "such-and-such needs to die", "you're scum"), for example. She's being much more diplomatic in this game.

In Georgetown II I spent a fair deal of time reading (and rereading) Sotty7's posts, being concerned in particular with (i) how she defended scum, (ii) how her play appeared to be coasting and (iii) how her play was potentially ingratiating towards a few select players while being selectively dismissive towards others.

Levels of aggression vary depending on the strength of the reads involved, and I believe that is the case here (as opposed to being an indicator of a different alignment). I believe she is honestly trying to determine alignments and her back-and-forth on views (in particular, her "wringing her hands about Save the Dragons being Town" as DrippingGoofball characterizes it) reads exceedingly genuinely. I would be

shocked

if she is scum.

[MrBuddyLee]

Levels of aggression vary depending on the strength of the reads involved, and I believe that is the case here (as opposed to being an indicator of a different alignment). I believe she is honestly trying to determine alignments and her back-and-forth on views (in particular, her "wringing her hands about Save the Dragons being Town" as DrippingGoofball characterizes it) reads exceedingly genuinely. I would be shocked if she is scum.

I've had the same read on Sotty from the start. If she's scum, she's done an amazing job of faking evolving suspicions.

[DrippingGoofball]

Actually, my reads have been fine.

Your read on me gets an F-, excuse me for doubting the rest of your reads.

[DrippingGoofball]

Without using the words

"Scumputer" or "mathcam"

and the phrase

"told me so"

I BELIEVE IN THE SCUMPUTER
I BELIEVE IN MATHCAM
I BELIEVE YOU'RE SCUM
YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE TO NK ME

[Yosarian2]

unless someone wants to lynch Yos, which I would also be up for.

Are you sure you're not scum? Because your only case on me was your scummy echoing of chamber's confused question, and the fact that you didn't like that I was attacking you earlier today. When you do naked OMGUS like this, it really just makes me want to lynch you.

[DrippingGoofball]

We're lynching Sotty today and VitaminR tomorrow.

[Green Crayons]

Phone posting!

-----

OGML: I'm interested in your opinion on 1) the late D1 votes on KK, 2) KK's D2 feelings on Glork, and Glork's assertion that KK is scum, and 3) anything you have to say about MBL.

Good luck and Godspeed with your reread.

-----

I'm not going to vote sotty today. My own feelings + mason's previous experience > poorly articulated bandwagon.

[DrippingGoofball]

Green Crayons you should vote someone.

[chamber]

If she's scum, she's done an amazing job of faking evolving suspicions.

Which read progressions in particular make you say this?

[Albert B. Rampage]

Can we please narrow it down to 2 wagons?

[Yosarian2]

We're lynching Sotty today and VitaminR tomorrow.

Much as I like mathcam's reasoning, I'm going to sheep PJ on this and hold off on voting Sotty, at least for now.

[chamber]

We're lynching Sotty today and VitaminR tomorrow.

Much as I like mathcam's reasoning, I'm going to sheep PJ on this and hold off on voting Sotty, at least for now.

PJ's reasoning is what in your opinion?

[Albert B. Rampage]

All this resistance to lynching Sotty makes me think that it's really the right lynch.

[Albert B. Rampage]

In fact, we should probably just do the exact opposite of what PJ wants, seeing how his reads have turned out this game.

[Sotty7]

ABR what's the case I can actually defend?

Plus there has been resistance to pretty much all the wagons presented so far in the game.

[chamber]

In fact, we should probably just do the exact opposite of what PJ wants, seeing how his reads have turned out this game.

??

He was right about LML and all his other reads are untested, unless I'm missing something?

[SpyreX]

And yet the majority of your posts are directed at me.

Yea, they are, because in talking to you in a perfect world it convinces the others to help murder you.

I mean if you want me to talk about people I think are town more sure I can waste time there.

---

Sotty is cart before the horse. Can we pleeease lynch STD then I can lay that vote down on sotty tomorrow as smug as possible.

Please

[Yosarian2]

We're lynching Sotty today and VitaminR tomorrow.

Much as I like mathcam's reasoning, I'm going to sheep PJ on this and hold off on voting Sotty, at least for now.

PJ's reasoning is what in your opinion?

It was here:

In Georgetown II I spent a fair deal of time reading (and rereading) Sotty7's posts, being concerned in particular with (i) how she defended scum, (ii) how her play appeared to be coasting and (iii) how her play was potentially ingratiating towards a few select players while being selectively dismissive towards others.

Levels of aggression vary depending on the strength of the reads involved, and I believe that is the case here (as opposed to being an indicator of a different alignment). I believe she is honestly trying to determine alignments and her back-and-forth on views (in particular, her "wringing her hands about Save the Dragons being Town" as DrippingGoofball characterizes it) reads exceedingly genuinely. I would be

shocked

if she is scum.

Like I said earlier, I don't have any read on Sotty at all at this point. If PJ says he has a town read on her based on his comparing her play here to a previous game he played with her, then I'm going to take that seriously. He's confirmed town, and I tend to trust his judgement.

[chamber]

I knew where it was. I was confirming that you thought a single point of meta was a sufficient reason to call someone town.

[Bookitty]

I am unconvinced that either DrippingGoofball or Sotty7 is scum. I also don't think mathcam is scum now, but other things are more important at the moment.

I feel like DGB is playing precisely in line with my town-meta of her; in past games in which she has flipped scum, she has been more strategic (see Mafia 70 Traditional) and more hesitant in making firm stands. She also doesn't bring out the Scumputer so early in my experience. TownDGB is an assertive and aggressive advocate of her own opinions, right or wrong.

Sotty7 seems to me to be overwhelmed with the sheer amount of reading required in this game. I accused her earlier of not even reading the game, but I think I was probably wrong. I think it's just difficult for people to keep up and keep things straight. This is a gut read, but I think it's as valid as anyone else's gut read being used to vote her.

I could be wrong on either of them. I guess if these are the two choices available, I would go with the DGB lynch over Sotty7. I'll move my vote to make sure we have a lynch, but I'm not happy with the two available wagons.

I've pretty well filed STD in town for his Post 285. On a reread, he seems pretty interested in scumhunting and nothing I've seen since then has made him more suspicious to me. His move from Seolwagon (now me) to LML doesn't look like considered bussing but ongoing wagoning. Real life responsibilities and issues at work are making it difficult for me to do a full reread, but I would categorize STD as town based on a quick review of my earlier notes and a look at his ISO.

Sticking with my VitaminR vote for now.

[DrippingGoofball]

If PJ says he has a town read on her based on his comparing her play here to a previous game he played with her, then I'm going to take that seriously. He's confirmed town, and I tend to trust his judgement.

NOW

you're scum.

[DrippingGoofball]

Can we pleeease lynch STD then I can lay that vote down on sotty tomorrow as smug as possible.

Yeah I tried begging, but some people need bullet lists. Can you provide?