Serum & Steel 2: The Rise of Phyrexia--Endgame

[pieguyn]

what the actual fuck

I post a towncase for her not being mafia and your reaction is, rather than reconsidering said read, saying "owait maybe she's 3p"?

and if you really believed that, WHY didn't you mention ANYTHING about her being 3p

in your entire catchup?

like did you really post this:

Updated. Note that Kagami wasn't really bumped up. Just that I think Kagami unlikely scum with massive AND Panda Bears, yet I think both Panda Bears and massive are scum.

but not even have any thoughts about her being 3p at the time, but then suddenly when I push you about it you come up with that? if you were legitimately skeptical about whether she made sense as scum with anyone else, I would expect you to think about this possibility sooner. as it is this seems like you just made it up as an excuse.

[pieguyn]

Not necessarily scum, but gut + Ludi's case +a little bit the Titus read +POE = near bottom of readslist.

so let me get this straight

1. you agreed with Ludi's case,
2. Ludi's case basically consisted of Kagami being a giant lurkfuck and not doing anything,
3. despite the fact

you outright ADMITTED D1 you had misread Kagami previously in xenosaga, where she was basically just lurking and not doing anything?

also is it any coincidence all this happened to come up right when ppl werestarting to get suspicious of Kagami?

opportunistic as fuck

[pieguyn]

vote: mastin

fwiw, I think CN is scum too

[mastin2]

I post a towncase for her not being mafia and your reaction is, rather than reconsidering said read, saying "owait maybe she's 3p"?

...Yeah?

and if you really believed that, WHY didn't you mention ANYTHING about her being 3p

in your entire catchup?

Because the thought didn't occur to me 'til after I had finished my catchup? Like...I have a bad gut read there. The Titus interactions don't make me all warm and fuzzy. Kagami just has felt off to me the entire game. But I don't think Kagami is scum with massive/Panda Bears, both of which I am scumreading. So if Kagami's scum, then it'd be 3p scum. Doesn't mean that Kagami is 3p scum, just that if Kagami's scum, that's what I think Kagami is. And because I don't think Kagami is groupscum...I'm dropping Kagami from consideration. Could be 3p scum. Could be town. Unlikely to be groupscum. Thus, because I'm hunting for groupscum, dropped from scumlist. Not sure what's hard to follow about that.

like did you really post this:

Updated. Note that Kagami wasn't really bumped up. Just that I think Kagami unlikely scum with massive AND Panda Bears, yet I think both Panda Bears and massive are scum.

but not even have any thoughts about her being 3p at the time?

Stopping ya there, because that's when I was beginning to first have the thought. So, no. I did not post that and have no thoughts of Kagami being 3p; I posted that and was beginning to have the thoughts of Kagami being 3p.

[mastin2]

1. you agreed with Ludi's case,
3. despite the fact

you outright ADMITTED D1 you had misread Kagami previously in xenosaga, where she was basically just lurking and not doing anything?

I didn't say I agreed with Ludi's case. I said that I liked it. It contributed. Wasn't the basis of. And yes, I have made it quite explicitly clear that I misread Kagami in Xeno. That's one of the main reasons I've listened to thoughts of Kagami being town: because the last time I thought Kagami was scum, I was wrong. As I said. Gut, Ludi's case, a weird Titus interaction, and general POE put Kagami near the bottom of the list and make me suspicious of Kagami.

Not thinking Kagami's scum with massive/Panda Bears (yet thinking massive/Panda Bears are both scum), recognizing that my scumread isn't credible, and others thinking Kagami are town all contribute to Kagami not being groupscum. But I had a thought that it was possible for Kagami to be a serial killer who took out Titus or something like that. Still, though, that'd make Kagami either town or not groupscum, and in either case...

...Not worth focusing on. Which is what I'm trying to do, point attention away from Kagami for the time being. It's a read I'll continuously be revisiting. It's a read I'll continuously be analyzing. A read that I'll consistently be unsure about and trying to make sense of. But a read that a more final verdict is best left for...a much, much later time. (Like, at least after massive and Panda Bears have flipped.)

also is it any coincidence all this happened to come up right when ppl werestarting to get suspicious of Kagami?

Yeah. I mean, if a wagon on Kagami formed, I'd flat-out refuse to join it right now. I don't think Kagami's groupscum; I'm hunting groupscum right now. Kagami being 3p-scum is 3p-paranoia. While there's a time and place for 3p-scum-paranoia, that time and place is NOT on D2. It's something I felt the need to blurt out in case it is important, in case there's a relevance to having done so. It's not something that I want to place importance on.

[mastin2]

Oh, and by the way:
If my reads are even remotely correct, massive is the most likely scum-metal player.

So for officialness:
VOTE: Panda Bears
SERUM: zMuffinman
SYNTH: massive.

[pieguyn]

I didn't say I agreed with Ludi's case. I said that I liked it.

@mastin:

why is Kagami scum?

Not necessarily scum, but gut +

Ludi's case

+a little bit the Titus read +POE = near bottom of readslist.

"why is Kagami scum"
"reasons .... LUDI'S CASE ... more reasons"

I'm done

[pieguyn]

1. you agreed with Ludi's case,

btw to expand on this

here's a hint: there's no way in fuck she as town actually agreed with Ludi's case in the first place. the first point in said case

1. Constant hinting of inside information that seems above and beyond what would be accessible to someone also with a town role pm. In addition a curious fixation on the neutral party. Of her 24 posts, 6 (for 25%) contain the word 'neutral'.

is actually a p major sign of Kagami's town game and she's experienced enough to know this. and regardless, most of the 3p analysis Kagami did had a shitton of town motivation (e.g. bringing up it's not necessarily a bad thing to synth town D1). it's complete fucking BS. she's just sheeping someone who looks like they have a case in order to take advantage of all the suspicion being thrown Kagami's way.

[mastin2]

I didn't say I agreed with Ludi's case. I said that I liked it.

@mastin:

why is Kagami scum?

Not necessarily scum, but gut +

Ludi's case

+a little bit the Titus read +POE = near bottom of readslist.

"why is Kagami scum"
"reasons .... LUDI'S CASE ... more reasons"

Yeah, which is exactly what I said.

I liked Ludi's case. Meaning that Ludi's case influenced my own read. That doesn't mean I agreed with it entirely. It means it contributed to my read on Kagami being what it is. Gut, a little bit the Titus read, and POE all contributed to the read as well, far FAR moreso than the Ludi case which isn't perfect given other factors. Doesn't change the fact that Ludi's case still contributed.

Like I said. You're saying I agreed with the Ludi case. I didn't. I liked it. It contributed. I'm not sure how to explain that any further if you don't get the difference between liking something and agreeing with it. Because, well...liking something and agreeing with it are entirely separate things, and I explicitly like it but don't necessarily agree with it all. Best way I can think of to describe it is...it emphasizes the already-existing gut feeling. That being, even if every point on the literal surface were to be wrong, it might have picked up on the truth all the same, as a right-for-the-wrong-reasons type deal. I liked the case. I can't exactly describe why I did. I just did. And as a result, it influenced the read. It just did. I can't explain it better than that.

[mastin2]

Just realized.


pie, you're doing that thing.
You know, that thing.

Where you latch onto a completely-innocuous thing that I've done, and are blowing it out of proportion to be something that absolutely MUST come from a scuMastin and absolutely COULD NOT come from a town me because surely it's some important tell and not just exactly what I said it was which you're insisting isn't what I'm saying it was.

Save the trouble of tunneling on me and mind explaining your reads aside from me this time so that you don't end up nightkilled before expressing them.

[Chandra Nalaar]

b) I wasn't asking if the case pinged, I was implying it needed to be addressed

Just curious, how would you define the difference between Kagami-addressing-Ludi and me-addressing-zMuffinman?

You've attempted to address his complaints a number of times, even if you end up half agreeing they make you scum. That's a lot better than pretending they don't exist.

Oh also Antihero - Why did you choose to rolecop muffin?

Because he's a derp that ignored me.

Cop me, you get me as town and then have confirmation via my ability to read zMuffinman that he is town.
Cop zMuffinman, you get him as town but then gain nothing about me that hasn't already been made known.

It actually was a pretty abysmal target :/

vote: mastin

fwiw, I think CN is scum too

fwiw, I don't think we all need to be reminded of that every time you post

[Chandra Nalaar]

UNVOTE:

I need to think about this.

[mastin2]

(Like, you're coming to the defense of Kagami when

Kagami isn't even being attacked

by me, and I'm just explaining my thoughts on Kagami. If you don't see the parallels between your behavior here to how you defended BRO, I don't know what to tell you.

...Aside from maybe a "fuck you" or twenty.
)

[mastin2]

Oh, and btw.

Totally should just, in general, take this policy about me.
There's a flowchart that I plan to publish that will give better tells for reading me in general, some of which are timeless, others which are in contemporary site meta, but valuable all the same. Until it's actually published, though, the general policy I have on reading me is, increasingly, becoming:

Just assume I'm town until you have a REALLY solid reason not to. You'll be right the VAST majority of the time, by sheer probability alone. (In fact, beyond probability. Probability says I should be scum a minimum of 25% of the time. 2014's been something like half that overall.) It'll save you a BUNDLELOADS of headaches.

[mastin2]

(Oh, and hey. In the rare cases where I actually AM scum, it's not like you correctly scumreading me is going to stop me from winning the game anyway, so you might as well lay down your arms and surrender anyway, hoping to heck that you can kill my scumbuddies. )

[pixel]

Ugh. Mastin you're seriously freaking me out.

[mastin2]

Ugh. Mastin you're seriously freaking me out.

And when I freak a person out, it's generally as town, too.

If you've got questions, you can ask, but really, the important things I'm contributing are the scumreads on Panda Bears, massive (who I think to be metal), and Tattletale. Oh, and the top-tier townreads. Those, too. Everything else isn't that important.

[Nicol Bolas]

Vote Count 2.2

Spoiler: Lynch

PeregrineV(0)

:

Antihero(0)

:

massive(0)

:

pixel(0)

:

Kagami(1)

: Magister Ludi

Tattletale(0)

:

zMuffinMan(0)

:

Magister Ludi(0)

:

Trustworthy(0)

:

mastin2(2)

: Kagami, pieguyn

Pander Bears(2)

: mastin2, sharpest-knife-on-tree

Vezokpiraka(2)

: massive, Lord Mhork

sharpest-knife-on-tree(0)

:

pieguyn(0)

:

Chandra Nalaar(2)

: Antihero, Trustworthy

F-16_Fighting_Falcon(0)

:

Lord Mhork(0)

:

No Lynch(0):

Not Voting(8)

: PeregrineV, pixel, Tattletale, zMuffinMan, Pander Bears, vezokpiraka, F-16_Fighting_Falcon, Chandra Nalaar

Spoiler: Serum

PeregrineV(0):

Antihero(2): Kagami, Chandra Nalaar

massive(0):

pixel(0):

Kagami(0):

Tattletale(0):

zMuffinMan(3):

Antihero, pieguyn, mastin2

Magister Ludi(0):

Trustworthy(0):

mastin2(0):

Pander Bears(0):

Vezokpiraka(0):

sharpest-knife-on-tree(0):

pieguyn(0):

Chandra Nalaar(0):

F-16_Fighting_Falcon(1):

Trustworthy

Lord Mhork(0):

No Lynch(0):

Not Voting(11): PeregrineV, massive, pixel, Tattletale, zMuffinMan, Magister Ludi, Pander Bears, vezokpiraka, sharpest-knife-on-tree, F-16_Fighting_Falcon, Lord Mhork

Spoiler: Mycosynth

PeregrineV(0)

:

Antihero(0)

:

massive(1)

: mastin2

pixel(0)

:

Kagami(1)

: Trustworthy

Tattletale(0)

:

zMuffinMan(0)

:

Magister Ludi(0)

:

Trustworthy(0)

:

mastin2(0)

:

Pander Bears(0)

:

sharpest-knife-on-tree(0)

:

pieguyn(0)

:

Chandra Nalaar(0)

:

F-16_Fighting_Falcon(0)

:

Lord Mhork(0)

:

No Lynch(0):

Not Voting(15)

: PeregrineV, Antihero, massive, pixel, Kagami, Tattletale, zMuffinMan, Magister Ludi, Pander Bears, vezokpiraka, sharpest-knife-on-tree, pieguyn, Chandra Nalaar, F-16_Fighting_Falcon, Lord Mhork

With seventeen alive, it takes nine to reach majority.

(expired on 2014-08-10 19:00:00)

[DeasVail]

vezok asking for muffin's card in #2558 is HORRIBLE and untrue. I already figured out enough from the muffin / antihero discussion to know that muffin's town, and I should start voting for vezok. And so I did.

With it being pretty obvious before vezok's post that people were accepting muffin as town, why do you think scum-vezok would ask for muffin's card?

Going to go with PanderBears as town, since I don't think Titus would want to remove an undying ability from a scummate.

Are you scared of me going all OMGUS on you if you continue to scumread/not-townread us? Because this is a pretty flawed reason for us being town.

Kagami gets it!

Only if you think Titus thought she was going to die n1 AND that her day1 synth vote would be scrutinized AND she thought the utility of throwing us off her scumbuddy's scent would outweigh the utility of synthing a town metallic (on day1).
I find it pretty unlikely.

This assumes that Titus had a great degree of control over us being synthed?

At the end of the day Titus was content to lynch CN. I think Titus is a relatively straightforward player, push town players for lynch, mildly suspect a few scum buddies, and for the most part stay away from them. I don't think Titus is content to lynch scum buddy CN. In any case, there are much more attractive targets here today.

I think you're overestimating the impact of Titus including CN as a lynch option on who gets lynched.

Also, why don't you want to lynch tattletale?

~~

Pie's reasoning on Kagami has me willing to move her to weak town.

[Pander Bears]

vezok asking for muffin's card in #2558 is HORRIBLE and untrue. I already figured out enough from the muffin / antihero discussion to know that muffin's town, and I should start voting for vezok. And so I did.

With it being pretty obvious before vezok's post that people were accepting muffin as town, why do you think scum-vezok would ask for muffin's card?

Going to go with PanderBears as town, since I don't think Titus would want to remove an undying ability from a scummate.

Are you scared of me going all OMGUS on you if you continue to scumread/not-townread us? Because this is a pretty flawed reason for us being town.

Kagami gets it!

Only if you think Titus thought she was going to die n1 AND that her day1 synth vote would be scrutinized AND she thought the utility of throwing us off her scumbuddy's scent would outweigh the utility of synthing a town metallic (on day1).
I find it pretty unlikely.

This assumes that Titus had a great degree of control over us being synthed?

At the end of the day Titus was content to lynch CN. I think Titus is a relatively straightforward player, push town players for lynch, mildly suspect a few scum buddies, and for the most part stay away from them. I don't think Titus is content to lynch scum buddy CN. In any case, there are much more attractive targets here today.

I think you're overestimating the impact of Titus including CN as a lynch option on who gets lynched.

Also, why don't you want to lynch tattletale?

~~

Pie's reasoning on Kagami has me willing to move her to weak town.

Sorry.

[Pander Bears]

Vote: Tattletale

[vezokpiraka]

vote chandra

Today there is no titus to defend you.

serum zmuffin
Synth massive

[zMuffinMan]

just serum anti

like his ability is basically more powerful than a cop if scum can be found via any sort of flavour relation to phyrexia (which i'm guessing they can if inkmoth was phyrexian) because it gives him a lot of information aside from potential phyrexia finds

also if anyone thinks they have some sort of doc ability and can subtly say so without scum finding out (perhaps via spoiler tags?) they would be a good idea for serum too, i guess, if a serum giver wants to give them it

[zMuffinMan]

Spoiler:

i do not think i have a doc ability or a vig ability or anything all that useful but my card seems pretty cool anyway

don't tell scum

[vezokpiraka]

Ok.

serum antihero

@Trustworthy: I'm pretty sure what my ability is and I would like serum too. I don't need serum if I'm the only one who will get it.