Open 563 - Jungle Republic (Night 5~)

[Wickedestjr]

Vote: Maruchan

[Wickedestjr]

Mod: I will have limited access for the next three days.

I will try to post as much as I can.

[Wickedestjr]

I don't like the snscompt bandwagon. I have a town read on him based on his reactions to the pressure. There was nothing suspicious about his reinoe vote and I can relate to his statement that he gets lynched often as town but doesn't as scum (if it's true). Given that I'm also someone that is frequently mislynched as town, I think his response to votes is similar and genuine. While I side with snscompt here, I will admit that his vote for reinoe was bad - if he self hammers why can't you see him self voting in RVS? People do it all the time and I would say self hammering is stranger than RVS self voting. The vote is bad, but snscompt isn't suspicious.

@reinoe- what is the likelihood of five scum piling on a bandwagon and hammering you? Have you ever seen that happen before? Wouldn't a flashwagon make it obvious who scum are? I can't change your vote and I'm certainly not going to discourage your discussion with him, but I think you ought to take a step back at some point because your suspicion of him has been tunnel-vision like and growing exponentially. You could be wrong as I'm sure you've been before.

More in a sec

[Wickedestjr]

Unvote. Vote: Bins

Her vote for snscompt is incredibly opportunistic.

First she says this;

Both of you aren't making sense much sense at all. Sns' vote 'cause selfvote was bad. Reinoe's vote in response to that was bad.
So if it's any consolation to you, I like reinoe's vote less.

-Somewhat a fence sit
-Calls reinoe's vote for snscompt bad
-Says reinoe's vote is worse than snscompt's vote

And then she says this;

don't tell me what to do, reinoe.

VOTE: sns

really? i was waiting for a better defence than that -- not "go meta me." that makes you look worse.
meh, i probably will but i don't have time right now. so take this vote because i expected more.

-by this point Not_Mafia had voted snscompt
-Bins now sides with reinoe
-her reasoning in this quote is bad and looks like an attempt at originality (what's wrong with asking to be meta'd?)

She seems to have changed her mind because of post 39. But post 39 shouldn't have caused her to change her mind. One bad post caused a radical change in her reads? Looks opportunistic.

[Wickedestjr]

He's attacking the messenger. You say that it's obvious if all five scum were to get on a bandwagon: no it's not. Furthermore it's very typical for all scum to be on a day 1 mislynch.

1. Can you give me an example of him attacking you personally? I must have missed it.
2. Can you give me an example of all scum being on a day 1 mislynch or of several scum quickly hopping on a bandwagon?
(tia)

snscompt, can you please stop wall posting. It's unneccessary, hard to read, and it won't get the votes off you.

[Wickedestjr]

VOTE: Shadedmelee

Has posted since RVS but not done anything besides a troll vote on bjc

I like this vote. It seems hypocritical that Shaded would vote bjc with no reasoning, nothing else when that had basically been bjc's posting by that point.

Shaded, why are you voting bjc?

Pedit. I've only made one hard to read wall I believe. I believe it's necessary because apparently I have votes on me. Why won't it get them off? It might.

Pedit2: It got the vote off.

Lol fair enough. Still please refrain from it if you can.

[Wickedestjr]

Her vote for snscompt is incredibly opportunistic.

First she says this;

Both of you aren't making sense much sense at all. Sns' vote 'cause selfvote was bad. Reinoe's vote in response to that was bad.
So if it's any consolation to you, I like reinoe's vote less.

-Somewhat a fence sit
-Calls reinoe's vote for snscompt bad
-Says reinoe's vote is worse than snscompt's vote

At this point, I was "on the fence", because I didn't think either of them were scum, I just thought their votes were bad.

-by this point Not_Mafia had voted snscompt
-Bins now sides with reinoe
-her reasoning in this quote is bad and looks like an attempt at originality (what's wrong with asking to be meta'd?)

She seems to have changed her mind because of post 39. But post 39 shouldn't have caused her to change her mind. One bad post caused a radical change in her reads? Looks opportunistic.

I sided with Not_Mafia. I didn't like Reinoe's reasons at all for the vote. I thought they were weak and didn't make much sense to me, even from the beginning.
Not_Mafia came in with stronger points that I did agree with.
And I really didn't like sns' defense. Asking to be meta'd is bad because he could know he's not acting like he usually does as scum. He could have changed his play style. That's what didn't sit right to me.

1. How can you have issue with sns' defense if you didn't like the vote he was defending against to begin with?
2. What stronger points did Not_Mafia come in with that you agree with?
3. When did sns ask you to look at his

scum

meta?
4. If he had asked you to look at his town meta, would that have been ok?

[Wickedestjr]

@reinoe - Thanks. I'll check out those games later today.

@Bins - why are you town reading Paschendale?

[Wickedestjr]

vote: reinoe

vote: elmo

vote: bins

VOTE: bjc

Self explanatory. Isn't it?

At the time of your vote for bjc, you hadn't done anything more/different. I think it is suspicious that you would vote for bjc for doing something that you have also done. What is wrong with bjc's reasonless votes?

[Wickedestjr]

Catching up now.

[Wickedestjr]

I'm going to

Unvote.

Bins could still be scum, but I'm growing less confident. I am slightly bothered by the fact that she has voted sns, Pasch, AND Bulge (the three popular choices), but not bothered enough to keep my vote on her. Instead, I will

Vote: ShadedMelee

for the reason I provided earlier.


@reinoe- I finally looked at the two games that you referenced. I see that the day 1 bandwagons both had all of the scum on them. However there are two other things that I notice about those games;
1. Those day 1 lynches occurred on pages 55 and 18.
2. Both of the hammer votes were cast by townies.
You were clearly telling the truth about scum all joining those bandwagons. However, after considering those two facts, I don't see your flash wagon concern. What made you think a flash wagon was possible or likely?

Point 1...
..."There was nothing suspicious about his reinoe vote"...
..."While I side with snscompt here, I will admit that his vote for reinoe was bad - if he self hammers why can't you see him self voting in RVS?"...
..." The vote is bad, but snscompt isn't suspicious"...
Flip flop on sns more please. People get scumread for suspicious votes all the time.
Point 2...
..."Have you ever seen that happen before? Wouldn't a flashwagon make it obvious who scum are?"...
I'm always suspicious of players who have been here for years acting like they've never seen things that I've seen. Screams fake to me. Post 112 is terrible. The probability is unlikely but still possible. That was the point. And almost nobody does day one wagon analysis and even if they do it's not until day three or four anyway and there's no guarantee anyone will get it right. With two scum teams and five scum total, yeah the scum could hide out there easily on a day one flashwagon.

Point 1...
I'm not flip flopping on sns. I admit that his vote for you was bad, but I don't think it's voteworthy. I think I've made it clear that I town read sns.
Point 2...
I've played almost forty mafia games and read/skimmed almost two dozen more. I just took a look at my wiki page with all the games I've played on this site. The only games I know of in which quick lynches occurred were Mini Normal 1064: Charlie's Town, Mini Normal 1183: Mafiamatical Mathia, and Invictus Mafia. In Charlie's Town, a scum was the second vote and the last five votes were all town. In Mafiamatical Mathia, every single vote was town. In Invictus Mafia, ten was required for a lynch, two scum joined, and the last two votes were town. All three of those bandwagons were town pushed. I have never seen a scum flash wagon. Also, I oftentimes consider the day 1 bandwagon.

Wicked has already admitted that sns' vote is bad. Could Bins be opportunistic? Maybe but she justifies said vote well. There were a number of posts between Bins' post 39 and Bins' 79 that could have changed her mind. Post 114 is a hard chainsaw defense for snscopter. If sns or wicked turn out to be scum then the other is the partner.

1. Note that Bins didn't vote sns for his vote. She voted him for his defenses. I think sns' vote was bad (but not scummy) but I never had any issue with his defenses.
2. I actually thought the change occurred from 39 to 48. I can't see anything else that would have changed her mind between those two posts, though. I looked before I made that post.
3. I'm not chainsaw defending him. In general if I see a bandwagon on somebody that I think is town, then I am going to make that clear and explain why - I've done this at least a dozen times before. Be careful with chainsaw defense accusations, neither of us have flipped yet and I know you're wrong about me. "After further analysis, Tarhalindur has determined that the Chainsaw Defense is only trustworthy once the player defended has been revealed to be group scum (once the player defended is proved to be Mafia, any player that used Chainsaw Defense on the dead scum should be scrutinized). Otherwise, it is a null tell." - Wiki.

Not done posting. More soon.

[Wickedestjr]

I have issue with fuzzybutternut's suspicion of Bulge.

1. You seem very confident in your suspicion of him for reasons which don't seem that unique or strong.

2. I thought Bulge actually made a good point with regard to your 'mindless sheeping' accusation. Why did you ignore ShadedMelee, snscompt1, and Not_Mafia's votes? I would also like to point out that Bulge voted Paschendale two posts after the latter made his big reads post. He was the first person to vote Paschendale after that reads post and I thought it was obvious that Bulge was voting Paschendale for the reads post. So I don't see your issue here.

3. You said;

^That never has and never will make someone scum. Useless town =/= scum. Doesnt mean they shouldn't be lynched, but we should take out scum before we worry about useless town.

But this seems like a contradictory attitude. Aren't you essentially voting Bulge for uselessness?

[Wickedestjr]

The above is a scum catchup post

I did my "wickedest" analysis as of page 13 post 322. Wickedest's last post with content was on page 8 post 191. Of all the things he could have "caught up on" between those approximately four and a half pages-the first thing he decides to address is making sure he's defending himself from an indirect attack.

Firstly, I am always overly defensive. I have been attacked for that aspect of my play several times in the past. It is irritating that you continue the tradition here. Please take my word for it and don't have issue with it here.

Secondly, I don't see the problem here. Once I switched my vote to Shaded, there were only two things I felt obligated to do - respond to you and question fuzzy. It made more sense for me to respond to an already existing post before generating a new discussion topic. What's the issue?

And does this mean you aren't going to respond to my post?

[Wickedestjr]

I admittedly forgot to ask about this;

Yeah but you are voting a scum lean and notyour totes scum read.

Because you might just be an asshole. I can think of reasons why my read on you could be wrong, even though I feel strongly about it. I can't think of other explanations for Bins' actions, despite being less certain of the initial read.

If bjc "might just be an asshole" then why did you say he was definitely scum in the first place? There is going to be doubt in every scum read barring a power role result, so there is no reason not to just vote your strongest scum read. The point is that you have slight doubt in your bjc suspicion, but even more doubt in your Bins suspicion. You said bjc was definitely scum and Bins was a scum lean. For that reason, it doesn't make sense that you vote Bins instead of bjc. This seems like a contradiction with a sprinkle of opportunism perhaps.

[Wickedestjr]

Is there something there to respond to? Despite what you might think about the sns/reinoe argument I don't engage in pointless squabbling unless I really think it's important. Such things can have a detrimental effect on the town morale.

I asked you a reasonable question about your flash wagon fear.

And I don't see what's pointless about this. You brought up points against me and I defended. If you still feel that your points are valid then I don't know why you wouldn't want to explain. Likewise, if you thought the original post about me was worth making then I don't understand why you wouldn't want to discuss it. This is a brand new topic of discussion, not like we've been arguing about it the whole day.

[Wickedestjr]

It's a lot more complicated than that. It's about balancing which reasons I think are more compelling and which possible reasons why I could be wrong are more compelling. Mathematically, I am more sure of Bins, because BinsSuspicions - BinsApprehension > BjcSuspicions - BjcApprehension, but BjcSuspicions > BinsSuspicions, so I am more suspicious of Bjc. It's not opportunism, it's just complex. Also, how exactly is it opportunistic to suspect one of these two when no one else was seriously pursuing either of them?

This still kinda sounds like BS. If Bjc apprehension was so significant, then why would you call him definite scum in the first place? When you stated your read you should have taken both Suspicions and Apprehension into account. And it's possible opportunism because I was seriously pursuing Bins. Did you miss that?

At the time of your vote for bjc, you hadn't done anything more/different. I think it is suspicious that you would vote for bjc for doing something that you have also done. What is wrong with bjc's reasonless votes?

Please show me where i voted without a reason besides that bjc-reaction vote. Even my RVS vote has a reason.

Also do you think it is ok to vote people without giving reasons?

I never said you voted without a reason on another occasion. The point is you did it once. If you would do it, I can't understand your concern with someone else doing it. What exactly did you find suspicious about bjc's reasonless voting?

It's ok to vote people without giving reasons immediately. Note that I'm not questioning bjc for his reasonless voting and I'm only questioning yours because I see hypocrisy.

[Wickedestjr]

1.) I think Bulge is a werewolf. It's a 50-50 gut read, meaning that half of the vote is because of gut and half is because I find his play scummy and indicative of a werewolf.

2.) Since when can scum not make good points? I don't care if your point is the best point that was ever made in the history of mafia, if you're scum, and I'm town, I'm going to lynch your ass. I didn't ignore anyone's votes. I knew very well who was voting for whom, but I wholeheartedly believe Bulge is scum and therefore will do my best to get him lynched.

3.) See 1. I will never push someones lynch solely for doing shit-all. That's a policy lynch. I despise policy lynches. Stating what I stated in said quote was more IC and less fuzzy. Despite this not being a newbie game, there are things people still think are scummy when, in reality, they aren't. I feel obligated to point things like that out in hopes to help their future gameplay.

1.) Ok well I still think your non-gut reasons for suspecting him are weak. What makes you think he's a werewolf in particular?

2.) Sure, scum can make good points. Please note that I'm not arguing that Bulge is town - I don't have a good read on Bulge right now. I'm trying to understand your thought process, not change it. Did you think that any of the other Paschendale votes were suspicious?

3.) I was just about to accept this response, then went to the next page and saw you vote Maruchan. That looks like a vote for somebody that's being useless. That looks contradictory. And did you not notice Maruchan's lack of contribution until sns pointed it out? I thought it was pretty blatant.

4.) Don't want to lynch Bulge any more?

[Wickedestjr]

1.) His lack of actual content makes it seem like he's just trying to pass the day through to get through and get his NK done so he can line something up for the days after.

2.) At the time, I didn't think anything of the pasch votes. I'll go back and re-read to see if I find anything out of the ordinary.

3.) I explained the reason I'm voting in one of my latest posts.

4.) Yes and no. I would rather lynch Maru over Bulge right now, as Sns made some good points that changed my mind on the subject. I still want Bulge lynched, and my thoughts may change based on Maru's flip, but I honestly think he's scummier than Bulge right now.

On another note, is Shaded flailing or is it just me?

1.) This doesn't really make any sense. Does this mean Maruchan is the other werewolf?

2.) So... anything out of the ordinary?

3.) I've read your iso twice now. I don't see any reasoning other than "he is useless". Unless I missed something twice, your Maruchan vote contradicts your belief that uselessness =/= scum. And again, did you not notice Maruchan's lack of contribution before sns pointed it out? I thought it was pretty blatant.

4.) Well, in your post 384 you also said "Sns, let's lynch Shaded tomorrow, yes?" shortly after voting Maruchan. At one point you seemed to really want to lynch Bulge today. Next thing I know, you have Maruchan AND Shaded ahead of him on the pecking order. Seems like a radical change.

I'm not sure that he was flailing, but he was most definitely lurking.

[Wickedestjr]

This still kinda sounds like BS. If Bjc apprehension was so significant, then why would you call him definite scum in the first place? When you stated your read you should have taken both Suspicions and Apprehension into account. And it's possible opportunism because I was seriously pursuing Bins. Did you miss that?

Because definite scum was the first reaction, and then I considered it further. You know, evolve reads based on more information. And I wouldn't call asking a few questions "serious pursuit", espeically since nothing ever came of them.

Yeah, but before you "considered it further" you voted Bins and kept your vote on Bins rather than bjc. In post 232, your reads list, your suspicion of bjc was stronger than your suspicion of Bins. In post 266 you were still voting Bins but called bjc definite scum. "I considered it further" is a great explanation for unvoting bjc after already voting him, but it doesn't explain why you never voted him. I don't understand why you weren't voting him in post 232 or 266 because you suspected him more than Bins when you made those posts.

[Wickedestjr]

Shaded, the point was that you voted bjc without giving a reason too. So if voting without immediately giving reasons is a scum tell, wouldn't that mean you and bjc are both scum?

[Wickedestjr]

Moreso, why would it bother you for someone to vote their second strongest scumread?

Because I don't understand why you wouldn't vote for your top suspect. That's partially why I started questioning you. Plus, there's possible opportunism in your Bins vote.

[Wickedestjr]

Shaded, can you answer this please;

Shaded, the point was that you voted bjc without giving a reason too. So if voting without immediately giving reasons is a scum tell, wouldn't that mean you and bjc are both scum?

I did not tell it is a scum-tell. It is just not pro-town. Bad play.
I wanted bjc to explain his votes, and i meant to be allegorical there by mimicking him. Vote was just to draw attention of him, not because he was scummy.

So why not ask him to explain his votes?

[Wickedestjr]

It is day 1 and this game already feels dead. That's a major problem. I'm posting two/three times every other day and it feels like I'm one of the most active currently. Seems like it's time to lynch.

Let's make this Shaded vs. Paschendale for the rest of today, those are currently the two largest bandwagons, and they are both suspicious. Plus, with five scum in the game, there's a good chance at least one of Shaded/Paschendale is anti-town. The Bulge, fuzzy, sns, Paschendale, and Desperado should all consider moving their votes to one of those two bandwagons. It doesn't look like Not_Mafia, Splash, or Bulge are getting lynched today.

I think L-2 should be claiming territory. Anyone disagree?

[Wickedestjr]

(expired on 2014-07-30 10:47:12) left. We're almost at deadline and there's no discussion taking place to cause vote changes before we do get to deadline. So people that are voting for players with no lynch potential need to switch before it becomes a time crunch.

I mostly just made this post to avoid getting prodded tomorrow.

[Wickedestjr]

Splashcloud:

Do you have any other thoughts at this point?

fuzzy:

Can you please address my post 422? Tia.

I'm not sure what to think of Shaded's replace out. It's certainly not a scum tell. It might be a town tell, but I'm not going to assume so yet. I need to ponder.

[Wickedestjr]

Thecwagon on Splash looks townier. Both are of equal size and on obvious scum.

This seems like bad rationale... especially when there are five scum, everyone has motivation to scumhunt, and it's day one. Why do you town read fuzzy? Have you played with him before?

[Wickedestjr]

I've read your iso twice now. I don't see any reasoning other than "he is useless". Unless I missed something twice, your Maruchan vote contradicts your belief that uselessness =/= scum. And again, did you not notice Maruchan's lack of contribution before sns pointed it out? I thought it was pretty blatant.

I swear it was this game that I mentioned how useless Maru was going to be from the start, but I may be wrong about that. If I am, disregard that completely.

Okay, so then why did you vote Maruchan for "uselessness" if you believe uselessness =/= scum?

Mod: fuzzy unvoted.

[Wickedestjr]

My order of lynch preference from most to least preferred;
1. Titus
2. Paschendale
3. Splashcloud
4. The Bulge

We're running out of time, but I don't see what warrants a deadline freeze. We already wasted a few days by... not talking at all, we don't deserve more time. I don't see how more time would help when several people, myself included, seem ready for a lynch. Three more days of prod dodges, replacements, and vote change refusals might temporarily lose my interest in this game.

[Wickedestjr]

I'll answer that tomorrow, Wicked.

It's not a particularly difficult question, you should be able to explain your suspicion of him given that you just voted his replacement and want to lynch it. I've been trying to get an answer to said question for seven days now... Inb4 you play the "it doesn't matter we already lynched him" card or night kill me and never answer. Oh and because one just wasn't enough.

Does anyone else find it odd that fuzzy voted Maruchan because he was useless but also said that uselessness =/= scum in his post 302?

[Wickedestjr]

Bleh. I will go to sleep in a few hours. Just realized that deadline will be before I wake up.

Count is currently;
Titus (5) - Not_Mafia, Splashcloud, Wickedestjr, reinoe, Paschendale
Splashcloud (4) - Titus, fuzzybutternut, snscompt1, Desperado
Paschendale (2) - Bins, bjc
Not_Mafia (1) - The Bulge


Bins said that she would be online for the lynch. She can put Titus at L-1 if nothing else changes. Who's going to be the seventh vote?

I really don't want to no lynch. Don't want a redo of this incrediboring and inactive day.

[Wickedestjr]

True, but too late.

[Wickedestjr]

If Titus was the seer then I think she would have claimed that by now. I seriously doubt that she's the seer...

[Wickedestjr]

Do you townread Titus? If so, why?

[Wickedestjr]

Checking in. Not sure who I want to vote right now.

I'll try to get to this game tonight.

[Wickedestjr]

@Bins-

I'm honestly kinda surprised that I'm still alive too, but pleasantly surprised. But I think it's too early for you to consider that. If I'm alive on day 4 and haven't attracted suspicion, then I'll admit that would be pretty strange. I would understand if you considered lynching me then, but not now.

And if I remember correctly;
-reinoe's attack on me wasn't that strong
-reinoe's suspicion of me was largely based on me being connected to his stronger suspect named snscompt1. If sns is town, which I think he is, then reinoe's suspicion holds no weight.

P-edit: I normally like NKA, but I don't think the nk is really worth discussing at this point, especially because reinoe was one of the most townish. I could see anyone here choosing reinoe for the kill.

[Wickedestjr]

Reading now. Sorry guys.

[Wickedestjr]

Bins seems like town for all of her posts on page 21. Pretty confident in that read. Right now, I have no strong town reads aside from her and sns.

Regarding night kill analysis, I still believe that it's unhelpful at this point because anyone had good reason to choose reinoe for the kill. I do think that werewolves should be trying to kill mafia rather than town reads, though - unless they see a seer tell/crumb, they're more likely to hit mafia than seer.

On the topic of who we should lynch, it's good to lynch mafia but I agree that werewolves pose a much greater threat. Both teams have two members, but werewolves have a kill - so if we can, we should try to lynch one of them. Last time I played in a jungle republic, the werewolves won it - I think we could be in trouble if both wolves survive to day 3.

I have some other notes. Soon I will post them in a readable manner.

[Wickedestjr]

Just realized that most/all the rest of my notes are regarding Pasch or fuzzy. This post is dedicated to Paschendale, next one will be dedicated to fuzzy.

Despite them being by my scumreads, those last votes on Titus by Bulge and Bins didn't look very bussy. It's possible that the whole wagon was town.

This could be a werewolf slip. I have trouble seeing Paschendale make this mistake if he is really town.

Scum certainly could. But I don't imagine that they would be more likely than town to do so. I think of more interest is that there was only one kill. Whoever stopped the other one, props!

Also, because missing important setup details is apparently my thing lately, I just noticed that the mafia sample PM does not include a factional kill. So it is not, in fact, noteworthy that there was only one kill. We know that there should only have been one.

This might be a genuine not-mafia tell. Only problem is that I've seen mafia try this before.

PS:

bjc was town as fuck and his reads were super good.

He had ShadedMelee, Bulge, Pasch picked out super fast. If all 3 flip scum then the town owes him a ton for the upcoming win.

This reaction feels off. Trying to understand if you are town. If Shaded was scum and you suspect Bulge enough to vote him, why is it laughworthy that bjc would get credit for 2/3?

[Wickedestjr]

Pretty confident that fuzzy is not a werewolf. The werewolf speculation yesterday + initiation of night kill discussion + Unsight vote don't make sense for him as werewolf. It makes more sense for him to hunt werewolves as mafia, cannot see the nightkill interest coming from someone who conducted the kill, and his question/vote in 551 regarding Unsight are both solid.

I actually think that fuzzy is mafia.

1. He makes sense as Shaded/Titus's partner.
a.) Unsight brought up a very good point. It didn't make sense for fuzzy to vote for Splashcloud instead of Shaded yesterday. Looks like he might have been trying to protect a scum buddy. Note that he orginally said that he wanted to lynch Bulge, then Shaded, then Pasch. Also, in post 453 he said that he wanted to give Splashcloud time to play after replacing in. But in post 491, two days later, he voted Splashcloud and Splash never posted in between 453 and 491.

b.) Titus town read fuzzy but wouldn't explain even after I asked her for her reasoning. She's unwilling to answer my question, but is instead willing to enter a pretty long exchange with fuzzy. That's strange on its own but it also bothers me that she chose fuzzy in particular to question - it's not clear why she chose him. Some of the posts in that exchange also feel disingenuous. E.g. this;

Prob scum based on Shaded's actings. Prove to me you aren't scum and you can live.

c.) fuzzy tries to take credit for bussing Shaded here;

Now, please tell me, what would be the purpose in bussing my scumbuddy in a setup like this? That would potentially leave my team at a disadvantage, as having them lynched would leave us one less and possibly two less, assuming we were mafia and not werewolves. At any case, it's damn near suicidal to do.

The problem here is that fuzzy didn't really bus Shaded. He expressed intent to vote Shaded on multiple occasions but always found a better vote or an excuse to not vote that slot. fuzzy could have not posted at all and that lynch still would have happened. Doesn't count as a bus as far as I'm concerned.

d.) fuzzy's reasons for suspecting Shaded were better than his reasons for suspecting Splash/Maruchan. So it's even stranger that he voted Splash at deadline. (I think somebody else pointed this out, but I'm not sure.)


2. Bulge has a good point here;

@fuzzy - You asked everyone else for their thoughts on the NK but never provided yours.

There was nothing wrong with asking about the night kill. But it's weird that he brought it up and proceeded to not show any interest in the subject. Not sure why he would do it as scum (maybe he didn't want to contribute at that point), but I am sure that it is strange.


3. Yesterday, fuzzy expressed his belief that Bulge and Maruchan might be werewolves rather than mafia. But his reasoning is very weak. He says;

His lack of actual content makes it seem like he's just trying to pass the day through to get through and get his NK done so he can line something up for the days after.

...but this doesn't actually make any sense. Just seems like fuzzy's not hunting for mafia.

4. fuzzy's suspicions of Bulge and Maruchan are not only weird because he called them werewolves specifically. The reasoning he provides for suspecting them is also flawed.
a.) He attacked Bulge for his "mindless sheeping" Paschendale vote even though there were three worse offenders, the three that voted Paschendale AFTER Bulge did. Bulge was the first person to vote for Paschendale after his reads post and it was clear that he was voting Pasch for that post. However, fuzzy accuses him of mindlessly following and shows no interest in the three people that followed his vote.

b.) For the last week of day 1, I had been trying to understand his Maruchan suspicion. fuzzy voted Maruchan and later explained his reasoning;

SNS is town.

Maru is useless.

Pasch can wait. Let's lynch Shaded tomorrow, Pasch the next day, ez pz lemon sqz

Maru isn't just lurking. If he was, he wouldn't be saying anything. Instead,

he's posting useless shit and actively hindering town.

Of course you dont like my plan. I have unveiled ye scum team.

So it's clear that he's voting Maruchan for being useless and that's his only reasoning. But he has also said the following;

^That never has and never will make someone scum.

Useless town =/= scum.

Doesnt mean they shouldn't be lynched, but

we should take out scum before we worry about useless town.

That is a blatant contradiction. You can't vote somebody solely for being useless and also say that uselessness =/= scum. I have asked him about this contradiction for over a week and at the end of day 1 he said;

I'll answer that tomorrow, Wicked.

But he has still yet to answer, which leads me to believe he doesn't have an answer.

[Wickedestjr]

Not voting yet. I have some rereading to do. Might be a good time for meta'ing as well.

fuzzy is probably scum, but I actually don't want to lynch him today. He looks like scum, but is more likely mafia than werewolf and I think we should be focusing on werewolves.

I'll cast a vote ASAP.

[Wickedestjr]

For the werewolves to try and kill a scum, they would probably kill someone who the town also thought was scummy. Therefore they just killed someone who the town was suspicious about, and left a bunch of players the town believes are town, and won't lynch. It would probably be easier to leave the scummy acting people and have the town kill them off instead of searching for more scum, therefore by the time town has killed all the people they think are scummy, the werewolves could have killed off a fair amount of town people as well, and maybe accidentally hit a scum in the process.

1. The town are hunting for mafia and werewolves. The mafia are (or should be) hunting only for werewolves. That makes them more threatening for werewolves.
2. The town are all uninformed. The mafia serve as an anti-werewolf masonry if you will and if werewolves become a serious threat of winning then they may even claim. That makes them more threatening for werewolves.
3. Werewolves win when they comprise half the town and

at least one pro-town player remains

. If werewolves comprise one half and mafia comprise the other half, then mafia wins. That makes mafia more threatening to the werewolves, because they currently CANNOT win unless they lynch or kill a mafia goon. If werewolves lose a member then they CANNOT win unless they lynch or kill both mafia goons.
4. The only pro-town threat to werewolves is the seer. But again the werewolves are twice as likely to get a mafia goon if they focus on them.
5. Why do you want werewolves to kill pro-town people?

[Wickedestjr]

1) But to make half the people mafia, doesn't part of the Towny people have to die?

3) I'm pretty sure some of the town still needs to die for them to be half, considering there is only two of them.

1) Yes but werewolves can win if the other half is two townies. Not if the other half is two mafia goons.

3) That's true but from the werewolves' perspective it's harder to find mafia than town and werewolves can't win without getting another mafia goon or both out. It's inevitable that townies will die, so werewolves just shouldn't focus on them.

[Wickedestjr]

Bulge, have you ever said you could 'guarantee' that you were town (or something along those lines) as town before (as Bulge or as your alt) ? Ever said it as scum - and if not, would you ever consider it?

I'd like Bulge to answer those questions. However, I can already say that I don't like Unsight's vote for him. His only reason is that Bulge said he could 'guarantee' that he was town, but that seems like a weak reason. Also, I disagree with his conclusion regarding Bulge/sns - I already town read sns, but if Bulge flips scum then I grow even more confident in the belief that sns is not in that same scum group.

I'll admit that I still haven't done the rereading/meta-checks I wanted to do. But now I promise that it is first on my mafiascum priority list. Getting to it now.

[Wickedestjr]

I don't like this bandwagon. I briefly searched (for like two minutes) for reasons, but the only ones I can find or remember are "his mindless sheeping vote on Paschendale" which wasn't mindless sheeping and his "town seer crumb" which pretty obviously wasn't a crumb. The "I can guarantee I'm town" comment actually seemed townish imo and it was clearly worded in a similar manner to that which it was a response to - it's not like his use of the phrase "I'm town" was irrelevant or forced. fuzzy said he could 'almost guarantee' that Pasch was town and Bulge responded with 'I can guarantee that I am', not understanding the confusion there.

I don't have a strong read on Bulge either way, but if I had to guess right now I'd say he's town.

Can somebody please unvote at least temporarily? Not comfortable having him at L-1 right now and we still have six days left. More posts to come, it's been very slow going and I apologize for that, but I have been focusing on this game.

[Wickedestjr]

-Makes a huge case against fuzzy (#564) but says in the next post "I don't want to lynch [Fuzzy] today". Any reason why? Remember - we need to kill both scum teams so there's no point leaving one person alive if you are certain they are acting scummy.

When I said "I don't want to lynch fuzzy today" I meant that he wasn't my top choice, there are people that I'd rather lynch- my werewolf suspects. He's the only person that I have seen a mafia-tell from (rather than a general scum tell), so that's why he's not one of my top choices. If he is mafia, then his lynch is third best and I would support it to save someone that I think is town, but only for that reason. It's not like I would do everything I can to prevent fuzzy's lynch, just not the best choice in my opinion.

1.

Never voted Bulge. Ever.

2.

Very defensive as a player which is a light scum tell for me.

3.

His reads seem similar to mine on fuzzy/pasch, but he uses more words and says it more politely than I do.

4.

I don't feel like he's put the same level of effort into wolf hunting as he's put into mafia hunting ( granted the mafia were pretty easy to spot ). May be scummy or may just be my intense hatred of reading walls of text.

1. Never voted him yet and don't intend to. Haven't seen a single good point against him.
2. I get that a lot. I might actually put that in my sig once my ongoing games are all over.
3. Thanks?
4. Actually, ever since I made that fuzzy post, all my effort has been focused on catching wolves. It's just been slow going because I've been busy and for whatever reason I'm having trouble finding the tells that I'm looking for. I made the fuzzy post because it looked like there was a good chance of his lynch happening, and I didn't particularly like that - plus if I die, I want my case out there for future town consideration.

[Wickedestjr]

The confusion is that Bulge could only "guarantee" that he's town by claiming Seer and that he performed this open ended softclaim as he was getting rung up.

But Bulge's "guarantee" comment was in response to fuzzy's "I can almost guarantee that Pasch is town" and fuzzy probably wasn't talking about the seer there. If Bulge is town, then he CAN guarantee that he's town because he'd have a role pm telling him he is.

Unvote

Do what you need to do but we're lynching Bulge today.

Thanks.

[Wickedestjr]

EBWOP: Even if Bulge flipped scum, I wouldn't believe that he was trying to crumb there unless he admitted it after game. Lynches based on 'crumbs' rarely/never turn out well in my experience.

[Wickedestjr]

Paschendale, you said you would be "very surprised" if Bulge was not werewolf. 1. Why do you think he is scum? 2. Why do you think he is werewolf as opposed to mafia?

[Wickedestjr]

BTW, I would like to point out that this game just ended. That is the first and only game that I can find onsite where Shaded was mafia.

TL;DR
-He completely ignored partner A for the most part, expressed his support for a case against said partner, but never voted them.
-He completely ignored partner B until he thought partner B was confirmed scum. At which point he bussed heavily.

[Wickedestjr]

Ok right now I'm thinking the four scum are in {Desperado, fuzzybutternut, Not_Mafia, Splashcloud, Unsight}. That's a result of POE. There are thirty ww/maf team combos that can be formed from those five and I'm trying to narrow it down further.

[Wickedestjr]

Wicked

, can you explain you do not see either of TheBulge or Pasch as scum?

Bulge is a gut town read. Plus, I don't feel comfortable with either bandwagon that formed on him. Paschendale is a town read because of gut and a recent meta check.

and which of your reads do you think are WWs?

I'm working on it.

[Wickedestjr]

Narrowed it down to a few options. Still working on it.

Desperado

, what do you think about Splash?

[Wickedestjr]

I'm going to say Unsight + Desperado for wolves and fuzzy + Not_Mafia for mafia. And I'm going to

Vote: Unsight

.

Below are my reasons for thinking Unsight is a werewolf.

1. Unsight voted for fuzzy because it seemed like fuzzy was suspiciously hesitant to vote Shaded. Later he says that Bulge looks like a werewolf, but initially keeps his vote on fuzzy. Seems like he's more interested in hunting mafia than werewolves even though werewolves pose the greater threat. He later switches his vote to Bulge, but, IIRC, he never explained his initial preference for a fuzzy lynch.

2. Unsight's Bulge vote is probably the worst vote on that bandwagon. He said, "Bulge looks really good as a werewolf" and is confident enough in that stance that he proceeds to figure out who the 'other werewolf' is by looking at Bulge's bandwagon. However, the problem with this overly confident stance is that his reasoning doesn't merit the confidence;

The thing that doesn't sit well with me is Post 319. When he was nearing lynch, he said he could guarantee he was town. snscompt1 immediately took his vote elsewhere. snscompt1 could have been jumping off his buddy's wagon or he may have read that post the same way I just did--soft Town Seer claim. The problem with this? The Bulge is still alive. Night kill analysis is WIFOM and usually not worth the time it takes to type, but I think the wolves would have to be asleep at the wheel to not take that bait. Unless he's one of them.

Firstly, only a werewolf would want to out the Seer. Secondly, Unsight is making too many assumptions here (that Bulge crumbed seer AND that scum would have noticed AND that scum would have nightkilled him if they thought he was seer) - the combination of weak assumptions here doesn't match the confidence that Unsight has in his belief that Bulge is a werewolf. Thirdly, Unsight completely ignores the rest of Bulge's play up until now despite calling him scum. This is the kind of accusation that says "I'm not a werewolf because I'm speculating about their nightkill, also lets all vote the potential seer!" and it's bothersome that he and Desperado are two of the major forces behind it.

3. Unsight's comments regarding his predecessor seem disingenuous.

PS: bjc was town as fuck and his reads were super good. He had ShadedMelee, Bulge, Pasch picked out super fast. If all 3 flip scum then the town owes him a ton for the upcoming win.

First he says "bjc was town as f***", which is an odd thing for him to say when bjc's play consisted of one-liners and unjustified reads - a playstyle that is easily fake-able by bjc as scum. Anyone can post one-liners and provide reads without reasons as scum. He says bjc's reads were super good even though only one of the three has flipped scum. And then there's that last comment - let's wait until after the game for the hypothetical praise.

4. Unsight is guilty of IIoA = Information Instead of Analysis, one of my favorite scum tells. I have quotes;

As a final bit of trivia to consider, the only two people to never vote The Bulge ( other than himself ) were Wickedestjr and Not_Mafia.

Wickedestjr - Never voted Bulge. Ever.

Twice Unsight draws attention to the players not voting Bulge. However, neither time does Unsight actually analyze it. E.g. he never says that I could be Bulge's partner for not voting him, even though that's the subtle implication. 'Trivia' is pointless when you don't make use of it.

5. I have issue with this post;

3. Werewolves win when they comprise half the town and at least one pro-town player remains. If werewolves comprise one half and mafia comprise the other half, then mafia wins. That makes mafia more threatening to the werewolves, because they currently CANNOT win unless they lynch or kill a mafia goon. If werewolves lose a member then they CANNOT win unless they lynch or kill both mafia goons.

This is the greatest thing ever.

I feel like I just had an epiphany.

The Werewolves are gonna kill the mafia for us. All we need to do as a town is say "We're not lynching Pasch/Fuzzy." The instant we say that, the Werewolves cannot win this game without wasting two night kills on them.

He made four posts before finally commenting on this, so it's weird that this reaction was so delayed. But my main issue is that it's ~40 words that say "I'm town, so glad that scum will kill each other".


I think Bulge is town, haven't seen a single good reason for voting him. But here's a good Unsight case, so lets lynch him instead.

[Wickedestjr]

Why?

[Wickedestjr]

Already explained why fuzzy is mafia. Just explained why Unsight is mafia.

I think Not_Mafia is mafia because he likes to bus as scum and his support of the Shaded lynch looks like another bus. Desperado is a POE scum read: I can't envision an Unsight/Splash werewolf team and felt good about Maruchan from a recent reread.

[Wickedestjr]

Unsight post

Don't be.

1.

It's a pretty weak post filled with "Unsight is confident in her reads ergo scum" and "Unsight provides information ergo scum."

2.

Lots of null tells painted as scum tells and far too many words saying far too little.

1. Not quite, but nice try. You sort of distorted two of my points and definitely ignored the other three. I'm really shocked that you find my case weak.
2. No they are all scum tells. (That's my valid and equal-effort rebuttal). You think all my big posts are 'too many words', this one's no different from the rest.

Unsight is guilty of IIoA = Information Instead of Analysis, one of my favorite scum tells.

Also this is worth noting because it's potentially very scummy.

Scum will often try to stay below the radar by posting "useful" information, non-controversial material, and avoiding giving reads. In essence they provide posts filled with null or empty content that can often be made up of setup and role speculation. While that's sometimes useful for the town, a player who produces a lot of that instead of genuine scum hunting is often scum.

That's the tell.

Adding in additional information noticed after heavy wagon analysis that may not be immediately important but could eventually become relevant

is not the tell.

Either Wickedestjr doesn't understand his own favorite scum tell or he's deliberately misusing it and didn't expect to be called out on it.

Oh well when you put it that way, your play actually sounds very pro-town.

You made an observation that Not_Mafia and I were the only ones not to vote Bulge. Doesn't take 'heavy wagon analysis' to realize that. My problem is that you don't take a stance, you mention it twice as if you're waiting for someone else to make use of it for you. The subtle implication is that you think I could be Bulge's partner but it's only a subtle implication and you never explicitly confirm it.

I am not getting into an argument about IIoA, even though I don't entirely agree with your comments regarding it. That's a semantics/naming argument, it's completely irrelevant, and I've explained my specific issue. Plus I am mildly insulted: that you would accuse me of using a scum tell I don't understand when I have more experience than you OR you suggest I would deliberately distort a scum tell believing I could get away with it.

[Wickedestjr]

Wicked's personal opinion of the "fake crumb" is largely meaningless when it's obvious a significant enough portion of the town are going to get hung up on it

That's ridiculous. That is appeal to majority and a terrible thing to resort to. This happens to me all the time- I am town, a bandwagon forms on someone, I townread the guy getting bandwagon'd and try to prevent their lynch, nobody listens to me and I get flak for not having the same invalid perspective, the guy flips town. I have a tendency to read well, once I played in a game where I was opposed to three major bandwagons (they were all town), that was a while ago but in the Shadedscum game I linked to I town read the day 2 lynch and despite countless arguments in his defense nobody freaking listened to me. Don't give me that "oh well everyone else thinks it's a crumb so your opinion doesn't mean anything".

and why more people don't seem to be aware of why us extending out a lynch centered on someone crumbing our only PR is bad is beyond me.

If Bulge flips town it removes any future wifom of that crumb and hopefully redirects wolves kill to Fuzzy, but that possibility is dwindling more and more the longer this goes on and more of us figure out who the seer is. This lynch should have gone through 2-3 pages ago.

I DO NOT BELIEVE BULGE CRUMBED. Even if he flips scum I will believe that. That's why I'm trying to prevent the lynch. In general if I see a bandwagon that I don't like I try to prevent it. And I don't care about wifom, I want a scum lynch not a wifom-removal lynch.

Why does that look like a bus to you?

-Almost never addressed Shaded despite voting him twice.
-You hardly justified your vote on him despite that being your strongest preference towards the end of the day.
-Very little effort to actually discern his alignment despite voting him twice, as if you already knew.

[Wickedestjr]

This merits its own post, especially the second paragraph.

Since his anti-town derailing of this lynch and unnecessary extending out of this day with discussion that is helping to make the identity of our only PR more and more obvious.

This is bs, and I am really irritated by your craplogic here. If I'm town (which I am) and I think Bulge is town (which I do), then it is absurd of you to say that my derailing is anti-town - you just can't fathom the concept of someone opposing your precious Bulge bandwagon, any opposition is scum in your eyes. The extending is perfectly necessary if I'm town trying to protect a town read (which I am).

And you cannot be serious about the PR comment. Wasn't Unsight the one that said in the first place, "Bulge might be crumbing seer here" - you are so convinced that my case against him was bad and blame me for discussion that can out the pr yet you follow the bandwagon that is based on Unsight's initial unjustified rolefishing. And last I checked, you were the one that asked Bulge to claim. I personally have no more of an idea who seer is than I did three days ago so your assertion is baseless. Then again, I don't look over the thread for pr crumbs so I honestly don't care about the risk as it is.

I think you are trying to rush a mislynch, appealing to the belief that it'll save the seer when the seer is in no apparent danger AND the lynch is much more valuable.

TL;DR - Not_Mafia gives me flak for trying to extend discussion that could potentially out the seer. But note that Unsight is the one that initially mentioned that Bulge could have crumbed seer and Not_Mafia is the one that asked Bulge to claim - they aren't interested in seer preservation. There is no risk of outing the seer by my wagon derailing effort.

[Wickedestjr]

I just don't like how Wicked keeps saying TheBulge is completely clear

I never said Bulge was completely clear. Please get your facts straight. I am

pretty sure

that he is town, regardless of his alignment I think the single point against him is entirely invalid.

Riddleton you are too easily influenced. You first posted after my Unsight case and said that I'd convinced you. Then Unsight and Not_Mafia comment and suddenly you think only one of my five points is good, it now seems that you've abandoned my case.

Unsight and Not_Mafia cannot be trusted. Consider this order;
-Day 1 and 2 occur with Unsight and Not_Mafia paying little to no attention to me.
-I call Unsight and Not_Mafia scum in my Unsight-case post.
-Unsight and Not_Mafia suddenly suspect me.
I can't see how you'd trust them after all that. Obviously they'll both dislike my post and obviously they'll both have counter arguments because they don't want to be called scum, nobody does.

Because, contrary to what others are saying, I thought it was very well written.

I really appreciate this. Thanks for considering a different perspective and not caving into peer pressure. And I don't particularly mind your Desperado vote considering he's my other werewolf suspect. When I voted Unsight I thought there would be more support for that lynch but now it seems like Desperado has more popularity.

Unvote. Vote: Desperado

.

[Wickedestjr]

Just read this;

Bulge will be lynch fodder and a sticking point for every day he's still here, and

we could have assumed a

mafia

kill like 4 pages ago

, instead we're splitting wagons multiple times for no apparent reason.

Are you a werewolf? Because I thought we were lynching werewolves today.

[Wickedestjr]

I'm up for lynching Not_Mafia if two other people are (besides you and I), that's the only scenario where it'd be worth it for me to switch.

Not_Mafia wants to lynch you for a crumb that isn't even a crumb because he's afraid that we'll out the seer. Even though Unsight brought up the crumb and Not_Mafia asked you to claim. Meanwhile Not_Mafia wants to lynch mafia it seems. And I am getting flak for not following the popular opinion.

[Wickedestjr]

So I guess I'd support Unsight, Desperado, or Not_Mafia as lynch candidates. I thought Not_Mafia was mafia, but that looks like a potential werewolf slip.

[Wickedestjr]

I am aware of the fact that this seems like really bad timing, and it is really bad timing, but it's going to affect my future posting ability.

I was surprised to learn two days ago that I have a relative that's very sick. So tomorrow I'm on the road for literally over 20 hours straight. I will not touch a computer tomorrow, but may be able to phone post. The next day I'll get good news or really bad news, in either case it's unlikely that I'll post. So I'm guessing I'll be occupied for the next few days.

Mod: I'm V/LA Aug. 13-16 (at least).

Going to sleep now, but I've addressed everything worth addressing.

[Wickedestjr]

@Wicked: As much as you don't like the votes on Bulge based on the claim accusation, you haven't really ever addressed my case on him.

That's true and I apologize for missing it.

1... He almost exclusively defends himself, 2... doesn't contribute to finding scum, and 3... his vote on Titus did not look like one where the outcome was unknown. That wasn't a compromise vote. That wasn't a vote he genuinely believed in. That was a vote that was cast against a known enemy.

1. Can you please explain this or give a post number where you already did?
2. I disagree. I've seen scum hunting. He's not the worst offender of this, I can think of at least two players that have done less.
3. This doesn't make any sense to me. Last two sentences contradict. Mafia is not only an enemy to wolves.

[Wickedestjr]

I am not getting into an argument about IIoA, even though I don't entirely agree with your comments regarding it. That's a semantics/naming argument, it's completely irrelevant, and I've explained my specific issue. Plus I am mildly insulted: that you would accuse me of using a scum tell I don't understand when I have more experience than you OR you suggest I would deliberately distort a scum tell believing I could get away with it.

Cheap way to dismiss the issue by calling it "semantics"

Wrong. 1. That wasn't my full response, you cut out the non semantics part. 2. Unsight's defense against my IIoA was solely a semantics argument, HE ignored the specific point I made, instead criticizing the title I attached to the point.

So you've townread major wagons before? So? We all have. Here you've just pretended a case doesn't exist and never bothered to address any of the points against him other then "well I don't think it was a crumb". More of you padding out your posts with complete fluff

Prior to post 700 I don't think there was a case.

Okay? You are not the only person in this game. And you completely sidestepped my point about helping to out the PR.

I don't understand your point, then.

This merits its own post, especially the second paragraph.

Since his anti-town derailing of this lynch and unnecessary extending out of this day with discussion that is helping to make the identity of our only PR more and more obvious.

This is bs, and I am really irritated by your craplogic here. If I'm town (which I am) and I think Bulge is town (which I do), then it is absurd of you to say that my derailing is anti-town - you just can't fathom the concept of someone opposing your precious Bulge bandwagon, any opposition is scum in your eyes. The extending is perfectly necessary if I'm town trying to protect a town read (which I am).

You are completely misrepresenting what I'm saying here, never have I said "lol disagrees scum"

If I am town that believes Bulge is a mislynch, then what's anti town about my defense? Because mislynches are anti town...

I figured out who the seer was from your counter wagoning, so yes there is and was a risk

1. I don't believe you - still think your seer preservation is disingenuous.
2. If you really cared about keeping the seer alive, then you wouldn't have made this comment. That was a bad comment to make if true, two things very wrong about it.
3. There was nothing revealing about my counter wagoning.

[Wickedestjr]

What was the point of this? Discredit a player and then say "Not_Mafia and Unsight are OMGUSing, it doesn't matter that they have valid points it's OMGUS"

I wasn't trying to discredit Riddleton. I just want Riddleton to think for himself. I townread him and don't like to see my scum reads affecting his opinions.

I mentioned the 'order' because it felt convenient and yeah even a little omgusy.

[Wickedestjr]

Just read this;

Bulge will be lynch fodder and a sticking point for every day he's still here, and

we could have assumed a

mafia

kill like 4 pages ago

, instead we're splitting wagons multiple times for no apparent reason.

Are you a werewolf? Because I thought we were lynching werewolves today.

Yes kill, not lynch, pushing this as a slip is ridiculous.

I apologize. Didn't realize you were talking about fuzzy.

[Wickedestjr]

I'm up for lynching Not_Mafia if two other people are (besides you and I), that's the only scenario where it'd be worth it for me to switch.

Not_Mafia wants to lynch you for a crumb that isn't even a crumb because he's afraid that we'll out the seer. Even though Unsight brought up the crumb and Not_Mafia asked you to claim. Meanwhile Not_Mafia

wants to lynch mafia it seems

. And I am getting flak for not following the popular opinion.

Yeah I never said this, I clearly said and kill as in NK and one look at the wagon I'm on would have told you this so I don't believe this was a genuine mistake

Lynching is a kill method. Thought you were talking about how we could have secured the Bulge lynch four pages ago because you had also said that before. Not sure I realized you expected fuzzy to get night killed, that kill was not secured from my perspective.

[Wickedestjr]

EBWOP718- Paschendale, I don't think it's suspicious that Bulge never expressed suspicion of Titus. Rereading his Titus vote, it looked like a NL prevention vote - I was perfectly fine with it.

[Wickedestjr]

Riddleton you are too easily influenced. You first posted after my Unsight case and said that I'd convinced you. Then Unsight and Not_Mafia comment and suddenly you think only one of my five points is good, it now seems that you've abandoned my case.

-I first said "You convinced me

at first

, but I'll rereadf his posts/ISO myself before I revote"
-I look through his postys and establish that I don't think some of your points are valid
-Therefore I'm too easily influenced..?

You approved of my post initially, Not_Mafia and Unsight criticized, then you changed your mind. So I just assumed it was because of the criticism. If you changed your mind on your own then that's fine and I'm sorry I was wrong.

Just wanted to point out that popular opinion =/= best opinion.

[Wickedestjr]

@NM's #702: Wicked's IIOA is correct but misguided. In the strictest sense it'd count but in reality it's obvious what Unsight is implying with the Wicked case. I consider it a null tell.

I disagree. I think Unsight left the option to call my 'not voting Bulge' null.

[Wickedestjr]

Mod: Did you see my VLA?

[Wickedestjr]

Bins, I would vote for Bulge over no lynch. I wouldn't like it, but I'd like no lynch even less.

[Wickedestjr]

EBWOP718- Paschendale, I don't think it's suspicious that Bulge never expressed suspicion of Titus. Rereading his Titus vote, it looked like a NL prevention vote - I was perfectly fine with it.

1... I don't think it did at all. 2... And I have no idea what scumhunting you're seeing. 3... I've looked over his ISO twice today and see nothing of value in finding scum or werewolves. Especially day 1. 4... He's been under attack day 2, so it's more expected that he just defends himself, but on day 1, there was nothing.

1. Bulge said and I quote, "I realize my N_M vote is useless right now. I'm not sure how town-motivated the Titus wagon is, but it doesn't look like the lynch is going anywhere else today and a No Lynch would be unfortunate." That sounds like no lynch prevention, not sure how you disagree.
2. He's asked questions, voted, moved his vote around, posted thoughts, etc.
3. I'll admit his contributions aren't the greatest but it's enough for me. There are three (just thought of another) players that have contributed less so I'm surprised you are giving him a hard time for this.
4. Pretty sure he was busy with school or something, but idk.

[Wickedestjr]

Vote: Desperado

I'm the seer, you are not.

-fuzzy is not a werewolf.
-Unsight is not a werewolf.

[Wickedestjr]

I crumbed my role on several occasions, I was actually worried that I made it too obvious.

If Titus was the seer then I think she would have claimed that by now. I seriously doubt that she's the seer...

Wouldn't have said this as VT.

I'm honestly kinda surprised that I'm still alive too, but pleasantly surprised. But I think it's too early for you to consider that.

If I'm alive on day 4 and haven't attracted suspicion, then I'll admit that would be pretty strange. I would understand if you considered lynching me then

, but not now.

Wouldn't have said this as VT. Alternatively, getting kept alive until day 4 is great for town when I'm the seer.

Pretty confident that fuzzy is not a werewolf. The werewolf speculation yesterday + initiation of night kill discussion + Unsight vote don't make sense for him as werewolf. It makes more sense for him to hunt werewolves as mafia, cannot see the nightkill interest coming from someone who conducted the kill, and his question/vote in 551 regarding Unsight are both solid.

My first major contribution after night 1 ended and I had just investigated fuzzy.

I figured out who the seer was from your counter wagoning, so yes there is and was a risk

1. I don't believe you - still think your seer preservation is disingenuous.

I didn't believe Not_Mafia knew who the seer was, because I was the seer and Not_Mafia had expressed suspicion of me. He wouldn't express suspicion of someone that he knew to be the seer.

Not_Mafia, now would be a good time for you to explain that comment.

[Wickedestjr]

N1- fuzzy
N2- Unsight

Bins and Not_Mafia are correct when they say I wouldn't have CC'd like that as scum.

Regardless of the lynch choice, I'd like to take another guess at the teams given the recent developments. This is probably my last day so I'd like to make the most of it.

[Wickedestjr]

the Unsight case was awful and is an example of someone not wanting to let go of their their pet read instead of making a investigative choice that would benefit town as a whole.

Oh give me a break. You have issue with my Unsight case, well I had issue with your Bulge case. I'd also like to point out that your "Bulge was scum, he just happened to receive a town role pm" is awful- like you refuse to take the blame and it's all Bulge's fault even though Bulge did nothing wrong. I was wrong about Unsight and I acknowledge that I made a mistake (I'm going to try correcting it today). If I considered the town's interest as a whole when I made all my decisions, then I would have joined yesterday's mislynch. Still glad I didn't.

Also: You said you thought Unsight was seer yesterday. Why is it awful that I would suspect/investigate my hypothetical CC? That makes no sense.

Splash would at least be a useful not-wolf inno as the slot has been a giant ?

Yes, but I thought Splash was town yesterday. There was no reason for me to investigate one of my town reads.

Not_Mafia, you briefly explained why you thought Unsight was seer but I didn't quite understand. Can you please explain in more detail? Tia.

[Wickedestjr]

Ok I like your answers. Misinterpreted the tone of your Bulge comment.

[Wickedestjr]

I don't think you should have cc'ed wicked. It was obvious he was lying anyway.

Obvious to you and I, but not to everyone else. If I didn't claim and Desperado's claim was believed for lack of a cc, then that would be a bad situation. Not sure I'd have gotten another investigation anyway.

[Wickedestjr]

Desperado is now at L-1.

[Wickedestjr]

Good game.

Thanks for modding Mist!