Mini 1597: Runecast Mafia - Day 5

[geraintm]

Your logic is of a much higher level than mine, I am all the way down here with little or no subtext.

I couldn't work out what you meant by Bert, just worked out it is one half of a hydra.

[TunnelMates]

BERT
DEAR BERT
can you please tell me what about this case, based on the quotes I've selected, is bullshit?

Prince, I mean David Price, I mean Prince

PRINCE

it's not? Pressed for time (SORRY!) but I did read your last posts and dun feel inclined to hold your dance moves up, which remind me of Groundhog Day! Let's all go to Punxsutawney, Pennsylvania now!

[TunnelMates]

notscience will make gawgeous posts that make you think of strawberries and candy canes today!

[LynxKuroneko]

I'm seeing sense in this.

HighShroomish, you might want to speak up a bit.

Now this is an interesting post. Either you two are putting on an elaborate show, or there's yet another misunderstanding.

<3 It all makes sense now!

And Burning_Earth

1) Could you try to pretend you're town at least? That's sort of the point, regardless of alignment (being pro-town).
2) I highly disagree with your new avatar.

So until you repent:

Vote: Burning_Earth

I'll do serious vote once this game starts feeling like a group experience.

[Osseus pseudotripodis]

BE is a quality vote too. I think Gera is scum.

Gera, you can't insist things like "remember he's about to hammer town" in reference to Day 1 after the fact because it's not the same thing.

[Osseus pseudotripodis]

Edit: Cause all it sounds like to me is "look he killed a townie and I didn't so I must be town!". Scum know the alignments and you're looking for towncred based on defending a mislynch....after the fact.

Considering at the time of the lynch Ger was NOT defending hiplop. He was saying things like....

I believe hiplop has posted on site in games other than this one after he was put at l-1
Pretty inexcusable that he hasn't replied.
He needs to claim the next time he visits the site to give us any chance of lynching someone else if he comes up with something juicy,

I am happy to vote someone I consider no use to town

This.

Day 2...BOOM! Ger is all about the hiplop defense.

[geraintm]

BE is a quality vote too. I think Gera is scum.

Gera, you can't insist things like "remember he's about to hammer town" in reference to Day 1 after the fact because it's not the same thing.

Why not, if I am going through your actions, I am allowed to point out that you vote for town people now once we have more information?

[geraintm]

Edit: Cause all it sounds like to me is "look he killed a townie and I didn't so I must be town!". Scum know the alignments and you're looking for towncred based on defending a mislynch....after the fact.

Considering at the time of the lynch Ger was NOT defending hiplop. He was saying things like....

I believe hiplop has posted on site in games other than this one after he was put at l-1
Pretty inexcusable that he hasn't replied.
He needs to claim the next time he visits the site to give us any chance of lynching someone else if he comes up with something juicy,

I am happy to vote someone I consider no use to town

This.

Day 2...BOOM! Ger is all about the hiplop defense.

You are very much focusing on one small part of my post 713.
I at no point use just your vote in 539 as a reason to think you are scum. It is merely one part of a much larger set of actions and votes from you that to me make you look scum.

It is very easy to attack one part of a case and make it appear that the whole case falls apart.

[Mantisdreamz]

VOTE: gertaintm

[d3x]

Ugh. I've been very lax in my output Today and I appologize. Time to do some work.

Lynx v gp is Distraction v Distraction at this point. I'm begrudgingly inclined to have them both as Town at this juncture.

What does hiplop's words have to do with anything? He was a VT with no extra information.

Eh... While hiplop has no extra information, his opinion is 'pure'. Ignoring information and ConfTown's opinions is poor play. It doesn't mean that he was right, but it also doesn't mean we should immediately discount his thoughts just because he didn't have an Investigation result. This particular post left a bit of a bad taste in my mouth.

this makes me sad dex

I am truly sorry, but it's the way I'm reading you atm. I know you've responded to my case, but I haven't really read it yet. We'll pry engage more once I get there.

@OP p671- Just curious, but why no Vote on Ansuz here?

your mind going right to protective role is p scum-mindset

If it's his 1st game, does that change your opinion? Does his presumed lack of knowledge about Roles, etc not enter into it?

remember post, 363 of mine? i didn't have hiplop as a town read.

I'm not following you. I'm saying that in your 2 ReadsLists, hiplop had gone from Not Scum to Scum without posting or getting mentioned by you. I'd like to know what changed your mind.

@Kthx... I'm waiting...

[d3x]

The evolution of the hiplop Wagon...

VC 1.8 hiplop (1): d3x
VC 1.9 hiplop (4): d3x, Mantisdreamz, Burning_Earth, LynxKuroneko
VC 1.10 hiplop (6): d3x, Mantisdreamz, Burning_Earth, LynxKuroneko, Osseus pseudotripodis TunnelMates
VC1.11 hiplop (7): d3x, Mantisdreamz, Burning_Earth, Osseus pseudotripodis, TunnelMates, Ansuz, LynxKuroneko

-I Vote without spilling the beans on my reasoning.
-Mantis Votes after casually asking for a hiplop Wagon. Outside of 2 ReadsLists {previously linked}, she hasn't mentioned hiplop aside from asking TM why he's a ScumRead.
-BE Votes with a seeming appeasement Sheep. There has been light prodding, but nothing substansive regarding a Read since he originally pushed the early hiplop Wagon.
-Lynx Votes to push the Wagon as admitted later. His previous interactions/Reads feel genuine. He has hiplop middling on the Scum-Town List and expresses doubt numerous times.
-OP Votes "balls deep". They stated previously that hiplop's playstyle as Town gets Lurkish under pressure and that they warrant pressure. Their next few hiplop references follow this train of thought.
-TM Votes L-1 based off of tone. They previously had him as a ScumRead with no reasoning and did not mention him again until the Vote. Whether serious or not, they state that their ReadsList was randomly generated.

-note-
No case had been presented on hiplop until my p571. He had reached L-1 and then dropped back to L-2 with Lynx's UnVote.

-Ansuz Votes after being made aware that the Wagon is no longer L-1. They are the only players to post a case {or reasoning} aside from me. Built/pushed an early Wagon on hiplop. Questioned other's Reads on him. Consistantly held the Read on him throughout D1.
-Lynx Hammers after debating the merits thereof.

gp & Konowa listed TownReads on hiplop.
Kthx & geri posted support for the Lynch without being on it. Kthx rescinded his support based on the Wagoners and geri posted support after the Wagon had already reached L-1.
HS never mentioned hiplop and hadn't posted between the beginning of the Wagon and the Lynch.

I wanted to get all of this IIoA posted and I'll look into it tonorrow. My initial knee-jerk reaction to the raw data is that Mantis, BE, and TM look the scummiest out of the batch. I'm going to...

UnVote

...until I can evaluate this a bit more.

[geraintm]

I am confused by mantis' vote. He hadn't mentioned me as far as I can see and switches to me.
Feels like the more I try and explain my votes the more I seem to be digging a hole for myself.

I can't see today not coming down to me being involved in a possible lynch right now, so I am just going to run out my role right now to,save everyone time.

I am a one shot vig (with a few extra caveats to it). The caveats are why I believe gameplay so much, because his had a very similar feel to mine as in a role with extra bells and whistles.
I can tell people my rune name if they wish.

I didn't use it last night, I had no one I wanted to shoot, I really didn't want to shoot gameplay.
In fact, one of the reasons I have been mentally tracking ozzy for so long is he specifically asked a vig (me) to shoot gameplay. This would have used up a vig on someone I consider a town slot, both saving a shot at a scum target and offing an extra town role. That is so good a result for scum just sent flags going all over the place for me.

Right now, I want one of ozzy. Or Ansuz lynched today and I will use my vig on the other one.

[Ansuz]

Vote: Burning Earth

[Ansuz]

Hiplop was town
I am town

I believe gameplay to be down
These three things make me think the following about ozzy.

I said in post 150 I thought ozzy was very quick to follow some one else's lead to vote for me.
Post 247 vote gameplay, someone I think is town
Post 253, to me looks like setting up to lynch someone no matter their claim.
Ditto 255

His post 510 said "Maybe a Vig can be so kind as to test his claim. "
This to me, knowing I believe gameplay to be town, is a scum trying to get a vig to waste their shot on someone the scum knows to be town, also making sure no scum is targeted.

Also in post 510 we get "Players I want more out of are Geraintm, Shroomish, and hiplop."

2 of these are town. It makes me very suspicious that once ozzy's alignment is known that shroom will be the scum partner they have tossed into his scum team to make it look credible.

526 - still pushing for the lunch of gameplay


539 - the switch to hiplop. Remember hiplop is going to turn up town.

702 - a vote for me. In my eyes, almost all of ozzy's votes are on townies.

My biggest problem with your case is that it is so shallow and boils down to "I think ozzy voted townies" and that's it.
Your problem with his post 150 is that he was jumping too quick on a vote for you who you know is town.
Your problem with 253 and 255 is that he's setting up gameplay, who you believe to be town, as scum.
Your problem with 510 is that he's asking for a vig to shoot gameplay, who you believe is town, and that he calls out you and gameplay.
526, 539, 702... your entire case is that he's voting for townies, and that's it. So, when we knock down your entire case because it's based on A) criticizing a read on hiplop you didn't hold yourself, and B) criticizing a read that is greatly bolstered by inside information, we're not cherry picking your case: we're addressing legitimately all of it.

[Ansuz]

BE vote is pretty straightforward: the only wagon that he's shown any resistance or dislike towards is Lynx's for some unexplainable reason, he hasn't put any thought into any of his actions and is generally happy contradicting previous positions for little or no reason (and somehow coincidentally sees scumminess in the flavor of the day whenever the wagon builds up, but not a moment beforehand and not a moment after).

[Osseus pseudotripodis]

I am confused by mantis' vote. He hadn't mentioned me as far as I can see and switches to me.
Feels like the more I try and explain my votes the more I seem to be digging a hole for myself.

I can't see today not coming down to me being involved in a possible lynch right now, so I am just going to run out my role right now to,save everyone time.

I am a one shot vig (with a few extra caveats to it). The caveats are why I believe gameplay so much, because his had a very similar feel to mine as in a role with extra bells and whistles.
I can tell people my rune name if they wish.

I didn't use it last night, I had no one I wanted to shoot, I really didn't want to shoot gameplay.
In fact, one of the reasons I have been mentally tracking ozzy for so long is he specifically asked a vig (me) to shoot gameplay. This would have used up a vig on someone I consider a town slot, both saving a shot at a scum target and offing an extra town role. That is so good a result for scum just sent flags going all over the place for me.

Right now, I want one of ozzy. Or Ansuz lynched today and I will use my vig on the other one.

So basically you want to put the town's entire game in your hands (if a vig?). That's dumb on so many levels regardless anyone's alignment. Yes, proper Vig play should have saw you shoot GP. It's a scummy playerslot with a claim that can't be proven without said Vig shot.

Also you want to kill at least one pro-town slot (and someone who has been playing incredibly protown), so there's that. Ansuz #838 pretty much sums up all the problems with your case and read.

But claims are next to worthless (yours less-so because it can kinda be proven), day play is more important. FACT: GP is so scummy it hurts. FACT: His claim means nothing and shouldn't factor in whether you believe him to be town or not. FACT: You're so scummy it hurts. Minus your claim you have done nothing to indicate a protown mindset. Your cases are full of scum logic, your dismissing of the hiplop wagon that YOU supported is scum logic. If you're town you should be aware of why you are being read as scummy and change that perception rather than going "nuh uh guyz you're wrong". That isn't helpful, and that's the types of things that scum need to do to survive. You are playing like scum, and if you're town you need to stop doing that. No one playerslot is more important than the rest. When UT and I talk about you, we talk about a player who is so worried about being lynched that most of his defenses are with avoiding the lynch in mind. Only anti-town needs to be worried about being lynched on Day 2 (or Day 1 like you were), because it directly affects their win condition.

Ugh. I've been very lax in my output Today and I appologize. Time to do some work.

Lynx v gp is Distraction v Distraction at this point. I'm begrudgingly inclined to have them both as Town at this juncture.

What does hiplop's words have to do with anything? He was a VT with no extra information.

Eh... While hiplop has no extra information, his opinion is 'pure'. Ignoring information and ConfTown's opinions is poor play. It doesn't mean that he was right, but it also doesn't mean we should immediately discount his thoughts just because he didn't have an Investigation result. This particular post left a bit of a bad taste in my mouth.

I was making that comment because someone (Lynx or Ger) was using it as gospel to justify a vote. Re: my comments about Ger above, hiplop was also playing survivorlistic, and his reads reflected that. We're all guilty of scumreading the guys mislynching us, so it's not a big deal. What would be more important is why hiplop had the reads he had (which to my knowledge weren't really stated). Also add to the fact his #1 scumread was me, I should ignore it. If not directed at me, I'd agree with you about dismissing him.

I also hate how you're dismissing Lynx vs. GP as "distraction vs. distraction both are town".

@OP p671- Just curious, but why no Vote on Ansuz here?

your mind going right to protective role is p scum-mindset

If it's his 1st game, does that change your opinion? Does his presumed lack of knowledge about Roles, etc not enter into it?

A) Because I thought it was a good post? What does that have to do with anything? Why would I abandon my #1 scumread for this?

B) Nope shouldn't factor in at all. If anything it should point to scum points because an older player would know never to say things like that. But I don't think his relative newness should factor into much. We'll give him some leeway over trivial things, but if you don't treat Lynx like every other player, if he's scum you are leaving him a way out trouble.

[Kthxbye]

I am a one shot vig (with a few extra caveats to it).

Interesting enough to

UNVOTE:

@Kthx... I'm waiting...

Ugh, guess I'll waste time with this for you since you're so awesomely town but you sadly don't know that about me. (PS, not a cop)

Which of Konowa's thoughts exactly do you like?

There is nothing super specific that I'm talking about. I like his HS read as it matches mine, but it's mostly his way of posting and where his mindset is during most his posts. They read genuine.

I'm going to go ahead and say it. I'm a hider. I hid behind d3x last night and didn't die, thus my change of paranoia to confirmed town today. I'm kinda surprised nobody caught onto that and then asked about it but w/e.

So, here is where I'm at:

I

'm town.

Konowa

has an obv posting restriction and reads genuine.

d3x

is confirmed town.

geraintm

....I kinda believe the claim. Doesn't confirm him as town, but I'm leaning that way on him due to the claim.

gameplay

has claimed something believable and provable. His play reads scummy, which is all the more reason for scum to want to leave him alive to end game. I'll be hiding behind him tonight to prove his alignment. If I die and he claims to have been shot and will die at the end of the day, yay for town. It means I directed the scum's NK and they took out a scummy town. If he doesn't die at the end of the day, d4 lynch is easy and confirmed scum. If I don't die, he's confirmed town and scum decided to shoot someone else. win/win/win if you ask me.

That leaves: Ansuz, HighShroomish, Osseus pseudotripodis, Mantisdreamz, TunnelMates, Burning_Earth, and LynxKuroneko for those on the table for me today. I'm of the opinion that I'm correct on the above list and those are town. Thus, 3 scum are in this list. that's just under a 50% chance of hitting scum today.

Most scummy on that list above (imo) are HS, TM, BE, and Lynx.

Are there any other claims out there that I'm missing from the list of those still on the table for me today? I am out of time for now and can't look.

Right now, I want one of ozzy. Or Ansuz lynched today and I will use my vig on the other one.

What are peoples thoughts on ^this?

@Ansuz: why did you ignore ^that? If geraintm is town and a vig, this kinda means you are dead tonight..... I'd also like to note you DIDN'T vote for Ozzy nor can I find any posts from you where you talk to them directly....

[geraintm]

But ozzie wasn't going through the whole post. He was picking on one tiny bit.
You, you kept.sayijg my post was bs but wouldn't explain why till a third party joined in.

[geraintm]

Hiplop was town
I am town

I believe gameplay to be down
These three things make me think the following about ozzy.

I said in post 150 I thought ozzy was very quick to follow some one else's lead to vote for me.
Post 247 vote gameplay, someone I think is town
Post 253, to me looks like setting up to lynch someone no matter their claim.
Ditto 255

His post 510 said "Maybe a Vig can be so kind as to test his claim. "
This to me, knowing I believe gameplay to be town, is a scum trying to get a vig to waste their shot on someone the scum knows to be town, also making sure no scum is targeted.

Also in post 510 we get "Players I want more out of are Geraintm, Shroomish, and hiplop."

2 of these are town. It makes me very suspicious that once ozzy's alignment is known that shroom will be the scum partner they have tossed into his scum team to make it look credible.

526 - still pushing for the lunch of gameplay


539 - the switch to hiplop. Remember hiplop is going to turn up town.

702 - a vote for me. In my eyes, almost all of ozzy's votes are on townies.

My biggest problem with your case is that it is so shallow and boils down to "I think ozzy voted townies" and that's it.
Your problem with his post 150 is that he was jumping too quick on a vote for you who you know is town.
Your problem with 253 and 255 is that he's setting up gameplay, who you believe to be town, as scum.
Your problem with 510 is that he's asking for a vig to shoot gameplay, who you believe is town, and that he calls out you and gameplay.
526, 539, 702... your entire case is that he's voting for townies, and that's it. So, when we knock down your entire case because it's based on A) criticizing a read on hiplop you didn't hold yourself, and B) criticizing a read that is greatly bolstered by inside information, we're not cherry picking your case: we're addressing legitimately all of it.

Voting townies, oppotunistically voting for them and fishing for a vig to be used to the great benefit of scum.

I didn't claim it was the best case ever, but with the knowledge I had it was the best place by far for me to put my vote.

[Osseus pseudotripodis]

Fishing for a Vig (that I don't know exists) to make a protown kill? Yeah okay buddy....

[Osseus pseudotripodis]

@Kthx....d3x confirmed town...?

[geraintm]

@ozzy

I got defensive about votes on me. One way as town I can help town is by making sure someone I know to be town doesn't get voted.
And I had to be defensive for a long part of day 1. Someone was accusing. Me of flailing....

The hiplop wagon - if people wish to use my supporting of lynhcing hiplop to build a case against me, they are welcome to. I am very happy to see how consistent my reasoning to vote him is with my actions in other games I've played.

"Also you want to kill at least one pro-town slot (and someone who has been playing incredibly protown), so there's that. Ansuz #838 pretty much sums up all the problems with your case and read."

Both you and Ansuz though to me look like non-town. It feels like double standards for you to claim my thinking is based on making assumptions on who is town, and you defend yourself because you are a pro-town role.

[geraintm]

Fishing for a Vig (that I don't know exists) to make a protown kill? Yeah okay buddy....

We CAN lynch him, let's not get ahead of ourselves.

BUT, I think I want him around for one more day. Just one more. Maybe a Vig can be so kind as to test his claim. y.

That certainly to me looks like you were asking a vig to shoot gameplay. What does it look like to you?

[geraintm]

Right now, I want one of ozzy. Or Ansuz lynched today and I will use my vig on the other one.

What are peoples thoughts on ^this?

@Ansuz: why did you ignore ^that? If geraintm is town and a vig, this kinda means you are dead tonight..... I'd also like to note you DIDN'T vote for Ozzy nor can I find any posts from you where you talk to them directly....

Glad I wasn't the only one to notice this...

[geraintm]

Can highshroom be prodded or replaced please?