NY 174: Oldy Mafia 2 (Game Over)

[Albert B. Rampage]

I can compromise for VitaminR. I wouldn't mind, at this point.

[MrBuddyLee]

Sorry, guys, couldn't post on my way into Burning Man.. cell phone tower was down and then I was VLA for twelve days. Will post later tonight/tomorrow AM after fully catching up.

[Albert B. Rampage]

We massclaimed. MBL are you the vig? Everyone else claimed VT.

[MrBuddyLee]

Why do you want to know whether or not I'm the vig?

[mathcam]

There's a whole series of posts debating the wiseness of the move, and how legitimate it is to claim townie. I guess I'd rather let you read those and see if you had questions. I think there are several benefits, others thing there are some cons.

[Albert B. Rampage]

We massclaimed.

MBL are you the vig? Everyone else claimed VT.

[MrBuddyLee]

That's not what I asked, Albert and cam. Now that everyone else has claimed vanilla, why do you guys want me specifically to claim?

[chamber]

To confirm the vig isn't lying?

[mathcam]

MBL, I think you're intentionally being difficult. And to be honest, it's not clear that indulging you is in the town's best interest -- everyone else answered without a discussion of the repercussions of the claim. It is a mark of my opinion of you as townly that I'm willing to indulge you in this. In any case, I don't think there's anything in this answer you couldn't have read yourself over the last page.

Here are the possible scenarios we're in:
1) The person responsible for the kills is not actually a pro-town vigilante but rather a scum role that has some mechanism for getting extra kills. (Others find this implausible, perhaps correctly. I persist on maintaining it as an option until eliminated).
2) MBL does not claim vigilante, and a pro-town vigilante exists and has chosen to remain hidden.
3) MBL does claim vigilante.

There are slight variations in these scenarios. Your claim will narrow down the state of this ambiguity to some subset of these three situations and their variations, and the direction of the day could be influenced (I think heavily) by your claim. For example, a vigilante claim from you that subsequently went uncontested would have many benefits -- we would have one more pro-town vote to rely on, we have refined information about possible sum teams and partnerships, and we would prevent the potential confusion of a near-deadline vig claim and counterclaim.

And so on. I think it would be wise for me not to detail any more opinions on what would happen with other scenarios until you actually claim.

[mathcam]

I would consider VitaminR (and did, at length, for that matter). My only hesitancy is the possibility of an BooKitty-chamber-{ABR/poro} scumteam. I had BooKitty-chamber as a very slightly unlikely scumpairing, thanks to chamber's occasional mild attacks on Boo, but it still lingers there in my mind as a possibility.

But really, I'd like to process as much information as we have at our disposable as we can, first. Of all the days

not

to speedlynch, this is it.

[MrBuddyLee]

I mean, I didn't really consent to this massclaim.

If I'm the vig, I really don't want to get NKed tonight for claiming, so I should claim vanilla.

If I'm vanilla, I want to get NKed tonight, so I should claim vig.

Boo, Poro, VitR, undo, Spy, do you guys want me to claim? And do you want me to claim truthfully?

[chamber]

Your consent is irrelevant. Today is the right day for the vig to claim.

[mathcam]

If I'm the vig, I really don't want to get NKed tonight for claiming, so I should claim vanilla.

I believe that the merits of having you as a confirmed vig, as outlined above, outweight your inevitable eventual demise. (But I'd maintain you almost certainly shouldn't be killing anyway, and so your role would be just as good a mason, who will die if no other option presents itself. What's the difference between the mafia having one obvious target tonight and having two obvious targets tonight? Why not reap the benefits of your townliness before you go?). From my point of view, there's also the remote possibility that a sumvigmbl (I know, I know, but I like to keep things open) is being put under pressure here to make a difficult decision.

If I'm vanilla, I want to get NKed tonight, so I should claim vig.

What?? No!! We've already got undo as an automatic target for the mafia. And heck, the vig's been doing their work for them -- they might want to keep him/her around! Do not not not not lie to the town because of some perceived benefit to the gaming of the mafia's choices. And what if the real vig counter-claimed right afterwards? Now we have two immediate lynches which we perceive as containing one guaranteed scum which actually loses us the game outright.

Boo, Poro, VitR, undo, Spy, do you guys want me to claim? And do you want me to claim truthfully?

To partially answer your question, Boo has already made it clear she's okay with you as vig lying to the town and claiming vanilla. I obviously disagree, but I now kind of agree it might be informative to see who thinks what.

[Porochaz]

Having read the points again, I think the scenarios mathcam is pointing to are unlikely (6 scum with the town power seems unbalanced, and I don't remember ever seeing a scum-vig, and I would argue (despite the wiki looking like it disagrees) that it isn't normal.

ABR going for the massclaim so readily, but still wanting a mathcam lynch, despite him being the main proponent of the massclaim is odd.

Do I think you should claim? No. Beyond mathcams points which I find unlikely, I think the benefit of the confirmed town is of greater use later than today.

[VitaminR]

So apparently the deadline is only a few days away.

Patrick

, would it be possible to get an extension, given MBL's long absence? I also will be VLA for a week starting tomorrow morning.

I sort of agree with Poro re the claim thing. MBL has a point.

ABR, are you really trying to cut a deal with mathcam in Post 4249 and Post 4250? Just a few hours before, you say that mathcam will '"most assuredly" flip scum (Post 4246).

[Patrick]

I'll extend the deadline until September 10th. Reluctant to add any more than that.

[Albert B. Rampage]

I really don't want any deadline extension.

[VitaminR]

I agree with your reluctance, but I'm going to be in the mountains until the afternoon of the 10th and I don't really want a lynch to happen without being able to have any input.

[Bookitty]

Can you not have input now, today, rather than asking us to wait for an extra week?

I think the only two you would even have to weigh in on are mathcam and me, so can't you just do that before you go?

[mathcam]

I have to agree -- If you're not going to be back until the 10th, then it's going to be at least a few more days on top of that before you get caught up, etc. We're looking at two more weeks. Still, sorry this is happening at an awkward time for your schedule.

In any case, regardless of when you go, I'd like to put in another vote for you weighing in on those two.

[mathcam]

I personally would really like people to put forward their candidates for the most-likely 3-person scum team. I think I've asked a couple of people to do this already, and have been summarily ignored.

Boo, any chance I can get you to indulge me here?

[undo]

I mean, I didn't really consent to this massclaim.

If I'm the vig, I really don't want to get NKed tonight for claiming, so I should claim vanilla.

If I'm vanilla, I want to get NKed tonight, so I should claim vig.

Boo, Poro, VitR, undo, Spy, do you guys want me to claim? And do you want me to claim truthfully?

It's not easy to answer that question given that we don't know your role. I say you do what you think will be best for town. That said, with that hesitation, it seems less likely that you're a VT.

@Everyone: What are your stances on chamber? Is he solidtown for anyone of you?

[Porochaz]

Can you not have input now, today, rather than asking us to wait for an extra week?

I think the only two you would even have to weigh in on are mathcam and me, so can't you just do that before you go?

And you missed ABR?

[Porochaz]

I mean, I didn't really consent to this massclaim.

If I'm the vig, I really don't want to get NKed tonight for claiming, so I should claim vanilla.

If I'm vanilla, I want to get NKed tonight, so I should claim vig.

Boo, Poro, VitR, undo, Spy, do you guys want me to claim? And do you want me to claim truthfully?

It's not easy to answer that question given that we don't know your role. I say you do what you think will be best for town. That said, with that hesitation, it seems less likely that you're a VT.

@Everyone: What are your stances on chamber? Is he solidtown for anyone of you?

He is not, but at this point it would take some research and someone to convince me he is a better choice than ABR or Bookie for me to go for it.

[MrBuddyLee]

I think it's probably best that I don't claim, then. Most of you seem to be fairly confident that I'm town, and thus claiming would have at best marginal benefit. If you disagree, I'm glad to discuss.