In post 1, SleepyKrew wrote:Only thing I can think of is a townie self-hammering to avoid a no lynch.
Still dumb, the no lynch is actually better than killing a confirmed town.
I will even push the no lynch in favor of hammering one of my strong town reads, who aren't confirmed.
If you're afraid tomorrow is just going to result in your lynch, then you shouldn't need to self-vote.
This is theoretically very bad play unless there's a way to block / prevent kills or it's already even numbers and no lynching needs to happen at some point
In post 25, zMuffinMan wrote:I will even push the no lynch in favor of hammering one of my strong town reads, who aren't confirmed.
Only because of the same reasoning why no lynching at mylo is a good idea.
If they're town, they shouldn't die.
Holder of the Longest Continuous Weekly Mafiascum Post Record. 1 July 2012 - 16 Feb 2023
*It may be held by someone else if you discount the major downtime in 2012 and 2014, I'm not doing the research.
no lynching at mylo is generally a good idea from a numbers perspective
no lynching when it's, say, 11p or 9p with a dead town JK or something like that is just bad play
they are not the same
whether or not a person is town or not has no bearing on the issue here. by no lynching you are depriving town of a kill that gives information in favour of giving scum two kills of their choice (one the day of the no lynch and one when the inevitable mylo no lynch happens as a result of the no lynch)
EDIT: and no lynching doesn't solve anything, either, since if the player was in the lynch pool then, nothing is likely to change overnight
In post 1, SleepyKrew wrote:Only thing I can think of is a townie self-hammering to avoid a no lynch.
If it comes between hammering conf. town (i.e. what a town player would be doing by self-hammering) and a no lynch, I'd take the no lynch every single time. Conf. town should never be hammered because "lol compromise". You are deliberately playing against your wincon at that point.
In post 27, zMuffinMan wrote:whether or not a person is town or not has no bearing on the issue here. by no lynching you are depriving town of a kill that gives information in favour of giving scum two kills of their choice (one the day of the no lynch and one when the inevitable mylo no lynch happens as a result of the no lynch)
EDIT: and no lynching doesn't solve anything, either, since if the player was in the lynch pool then, nothing is likely to change overnight
If I'm reading them strong enough town that I'd not hammer, and instead push the no lynch. (well actually I'd still be pushing my preferred lynch, but the no lynch would come before my strong town read), then it does matter entirely, Scum presumably want my obvtown read dead anyway, how else would that wagon have actually formed. There is no reason why anyone (town-aligned) should ever want to drown out a town voice, the forced no lynch enables this to be the case.
and should my strong town read still be alive at mylo - then all the better if I then am able to go into a lylo with them. (probably because both of us were alive, and then I would admit I failed everyone else)
and they still won't be in my personal lynch pool. No difference, if they're going to be lynched, they won't be lynched with me on their wagon.
Holder of the Longest Continuous Weekly Mafiascum Post Record. 1 July 2012 - 16 Feb 2023
*It may be held by someone else if you discount the major downtime in 2012 and 2014, I'm not doing the research.
In post 9, TierShift wrote:I consider self-voting a trait of bad players.
^ that.
Re: the no lynch thing, I would no lynch if I were the wagon. Clearly town was unable to reach a majority, and there can be mitigating factors for a no-lynch, while there are very few mitigating circumstances for 'I'll hammer confirmed town and silence the only opinion I totally trust.'
I'd not no-lynch for a townread though, because sometimes I'm wrong.
I think you guys are missing the most important thing to take away from this thread, which is that Thor plays as secret alts and has recently self-voted as scum.
In post 31, sthar8 wrote:I think you guys are missing the most important thing to take away from this thread, which is that Thor plays as secret alts and has recently self-voted as scum.
One game I played as town and self voted, I was mod killed as it was against the rules and in the mods opinion against town win condition.
After some reflection I agreed and have no longer self voted as town.
It really is against the win condition in my view.
Self vote is Copping out and as I said to another player it is the equivalent of a tantrum
Sarcasm is just a way of saying how stupid you think someone is but in a more polite way.
I'm really agreeing with this. AGar gave the best breakdown for why it might happen - and really his explanation boiled down to this as well.
It doesn't justify the RVS gak though, or the people who leave it there for more than a day. But at least a heat of the moment rage thing slightly mollifies how terrible they're being, because at least you can argue that they aren't thinking anymore - which certainly is what is required for a town to self vote in my opinion
It is at evens, you are an obv. mislynch, yet town also can't manage to lynch you, and there's also at least two lynches available to town.
That's a pretty specific scenario, and it sounds like the solution should have been put into play days before a self-hammer or no lynch situation was arrived at methinks.
In post 0, Thor665 wrote:I am really making this as a rallying cry.
I want self-votes to become the purview of only scum - and thus crush them as a scum tool barring self-hammers.
All it takes is for people to stop self-voting and also to stop treating a self vote as anything but null, and eventually as a scum tell as we weed it out.
Perhaps when the metagame evolves to the point where self-voting becomes the purview of only scum, I'll stop producing townreads from it - but until this is the case, it seems a rather odd request that I should stop townreading a behavior just because townies keep inexplicably (albeit moronically) exercising it.
Methinks thou hast placed the cart before the horse.
Not all will agree with me in this wise, but I am of the opinion that I ought to place the furtherance of my win condition on the individual game level before the perceived future health of the metagame at large (and furthermore that such prioritization would necessarily and indirectly produce a healthier metagame in the long run, but this is a topic for another day).
Personally I think they should be read as null, but as long as you never self vote and agree that self-voting is pro-scum I am fine with you choosing to read them however you wish.
I choose to read them as a sign of bad play, which is a null tell.
In post 29, Bulbazak wrote:If it comes between hammering conf. town (i.e. what a town player would be doing by self-hammering) and a no lynch, I'd take the no lynch every single time. Conf. town should never be hammered because "lol compromise". You are deliberately playing against your wincon at that point.
Conf-town shouldn't be up for a lynch in the first place. Either the town is playing really poorly or you're misusing a term that is often overly misused by the playerbase.
I think you're looking for either 'obvtown' (which is highly subjective) or 'strong townread' here.
I don't think the player self-voting to guarantee a lynch is good play. If the other plays feel that strongly that a lynch is necessary (to preserve numbers or whatever) then I think it becomes the obligation of the rest of the town to come to a consensus and force a lynch through.
Despite using them before, I don't really like self-votes and I agree that in most circumstances, they're dumb and/or can be unreadable. Logically, town should never self-vote, but people often defy logic when they play their games.
In post 44, Brian Skies wrote:Conf-town shouldn't be up for a lynch in the first place. Either the town is playing really poorly or you're misusing a term that is often overly misused by the playerbase.
I think you're looking for either 'obvtown' (which is highly subjective) or 'strong townread' here.
people are conflating the idea of "knowing one's own alignment" with being "conftown"
Self-votes actually happen a fair bit in all the face-to-face games I've played (mostly but not entirely with the Commune), but f2f is a much different beast than forum games. It doesn't have a place in the slower format, I don't think. Plus you can't read facial expressions on forum so that kind of reaction-getting from a self-vote goes out the window.
As an aside, Thor, I'm glad you're still around. I remember playing a game with you when I first started here.
First you get your wings back. Then you learn to fly.
When I played f2f with my friends, we used a formal system. Someone nominates another player for a vote and everyone votes at the same time. I don't think self-votes really fit in with how we played. It's a shame a similar system like that wouldn't work with the games here.
