Open 566: Murder on the Oriental Express (Game Over)

[TobyLoby]

Okay time is running down. Let's talk Skelda.

Skelda

Skelda is mostly consistent in everything he is says, does, and thinks in-thread. I think this consistency is kinda townie.

My big iffy is this post they made:

Spoiler: Skelda Post

Okay so I finally read through everything and this is my first comment on the wagon against me. Although looking back now, I can see how my vote and my reasoning can seem scummy I think the speed of my wagon and the lack of people questioning the idea of my one post proving rather or not I'm scum is actually a legitimate way to look at things is pretty bad. I definitely think that scum is on my wagon and are influencing it although to who is exactly scum I'm not quite sure. I'm going to post a reads list after my next class tonight and will go from there. Also, if there are certain questions I have missed please direct them towards me and I will do my best to answer.

Lack of people questioning "rather" your first post is a legitimate way of looking at things?

I mean, your wagon is four people, right? It isn't like you are at L-1 or anything. And I think a lot of us, including you, have acknowledged that your first post was scummy. But, since we aren't all voting for yoh, not exactly sure what your point is.

But you are the sort of person who is incapable of not being scummy. That's the impression I get, at least. And you might be scum and play exactly as you do as Town and still get lynched becaus you are just so lynchable. But I think I'm retracting my scumread on you, oddly enough, and putting you as null. Sure, your posts are horrible. But after reading more of them, I feel like they are going to be horrible no matter what alignment you happen to have. But being like that also makes you pretttyhard to townread or read at all.

What is your opinion on RoyalApe?

This looks to me, especially in the first four sentences, that Skelda may potentially be pushing Chaos as being scummy while not adding himself to the wagon.

What is everyone's thoughts on that? Am I over reading it?

Amy where did you go?

[TobyLoby]

Scrambles, what are your reads?

[RoyalApe]

RoyalApe, for what other reason do you believe Skelda is scummy beyond the town reads deal? You said you were going to vote her before but all I'm reading is stuff about town reads. You had Skelda in the null pile post 145. So I am curious as to what changed your mind.

I'd also like to see your reads in general.

Yes, I had Skelda in the null pile at that point because I liked his consistent tone.

But he has since tried to start a wagon on me after Jogger put out the scum read on me and then changed course to vote for you who I have null leaning good. I don't think I did anything in between his vote on me and his change to you to warrant a switch. But nobody else jumped on my wagon so it feels like he dismissed the wagon for being unfruitful.

As for reads in general - I think I'm happy with AFF, acryon and CKD in my goodish pile. chaos is in my scumish pile but I haven't seen enough of to form a solid judgment.

[acryon]

It's a (small) part of why I think acyron's vote off of Chaos is more indicative of scum.

I am still getting used to using my vote more. I come from playing IRL, where votes were used differently, and as I get more used to this format, I am starting to use my votes for pressure more. Consider your post inspiration. I still don't like the play I've seen from Toby.
UNVOTE:
VOTE: TobyLoby

He uses his votes for pressure, so he takes his vote off of the leading wagon to make a twofer wagon on me. That doesn't make sense. His read on Chaos didn't change either. I also don't buy the part about putting pressure on me while Chaos has pressure already that will stay.

I look at -who I believe- is a town farside putting a vote on Chaos to put pressure on him and I look at acyron taking their vote off because they believe there is enough pressure and it doesn't make sense.

That's fine if you don't agree with my play. The pressure vote doesn't do much if it's on someone who has been essentially a ghost in-game. We were already all waiting to hear from him, so I didn't think my vote was adding much. I stand by that. That being said, a big part of the reason I voted you was because of your consistent question-asking without much follow-up or commentary. It's a lot easier to ask questions than make statements, because it keeps you out of things. Since then, however, you have started making real statements to follow-up your questions, 285, 286, 292, 309, and 310 to be specific. Obviously you are coming to a wrong conclusion on me, but you are actually making some points that I think town would try to make. I also certainly don't feel comfortable on a wagon that consists of me and someone I am lean-scum on.

UNVOTE:

Additional stuff after catching up this weekend:

RoyalApe is tricky to me. 317 seems town. Toby, I know you didn't necessarily buy 317 as much, but a huge part of catching scum is looking at their town-reads. I liked Ape's questioning of even the most universal town-reads from Skelda, because you know who tend to have scum-reads without real conviction? Scum. On the other side, we have 301 where he is pushing Chaos to vote NakedJogger, who was pushing him. Just seemed a little defensive.

I don't like votes without explanation (314 from NakedJogger), but 313 from Belisaurus really sucks IMO. Bel's entire ISO at this point is tunneling Farside and trolling. Follow that up with a "darn I wish I had more to go off of!" and he really doesn't look good to me.

[TobyLoby]

@RoyalApe

,

But he has since tried to start a wagon on me after Jogger put out the scum read on me and then changed course to vote for you who I have null leaning good. I don't think I did anything in between his vote on me and his change to you to warrant a switch. But nobody else jumped on my wagon so it feels like he dismissed the wagon for being unfruitful.

I believe Skelda did jump onto me because of that and me specifically because he said didn't read me as town out of the bunch being voted for in post 316.

Part of these vote changes happened after you would have voted him though. Just for added clarification, what about your earlier exchange with Skelda made you think scum? What are your thoughts about what I said about Skelda in post 325?

@acyron

,

RoyalApe is tricky to me. 317 seems town. Toby, I know you didn't necessarily buy 317 as much, but a huge part of catching scum is looking at their town-reads. I liked Ape's questioning of even the most universal town-reads from Skelda, because you know who tend to have scum-reads without real conviction? Scum. On the other side, we have 301 where he is pushing Chaos to vote NakedJogger, who was pushing him. Just seemed a little defensive.

I don't like votes without explanation (314 from NakedJogger), but 313 from Belisaurus really sucks IMO. Bel's entire ISO at this point is tunneling Farside and trolling. Follow that up with a "darn I wish I had more to go off of!" and he really doesn't look good to me.

I don't have a problem with RoyalApe questioning town reads. I'm having a little difficulty seeing where he came from before CKD entered.

Why do you see RoyalApe (pushing) Chaos to vote NakedJogger as defensive? Defensive of whom in particular do you think?

Chaos has come in to say some more stuff now. Do you think he is townier or scummier for it? What about Skelda's reaction to CKD's post? Do you think Skelda is scum?

[acryon]

@acyron

,

RoyalApe is tricky to me. 317 seems town. Toby, I know you didn't necessarily buy 317 as much, but a huge part of catching scum is looking at their town-reads. I liked Ape's questioning of even the most universal town-reads from Skelda, because you know who tend to have scum-reads without real conviction? Scum. On the other side, we have 301 where he is pushing Chaos to vote NakedJogger, who was pushing him. Just seemed a little defensive.

I don't like votes without explanation (314 from NakedJogger), but 313 from Belisaurus really sucks IMO. Bel's entire ISO at this point is tunneling Farside and trolling. Follow that up with a "darn I wish I had more to go off of!" and he really doesn't look good to me.

I don't have a problem with RoyalApe questioning town reads. I'm having a little difficulty seeing where he came from before CKD entered.

Why do you see RoyalApe (pushing) Chaos to vote NakedJogger as defensive? Defensive of whom in particular do you think?

Chaos has come in to say some more stuff now. Do you think he is townier or scummier for it? What about Skelda's reaction to CKD's post? Do you think Skelda is scum?

Defensive of himself. NakedJogger was on RoyalApe for a bit. The reply from Ape to Chaos read like a delayed indirect OMGUS to me. I'll admit I could be getting a little too far out there on this one.

294 from Chaos reads town to me, but at the same time I want to hear more from him. He read through all the pages and that is all he came up with? He's a null to me at this point.

Skelda's reaction to CKD's post is the kind of reaction I have definitely had as scum to similar statements in the past. Skelda is lean-scum for me.

[TobyLoby]

I don't see what motive RoyalApe would have for doing that though. I don't see why he would choose to be defensive through Chaos. Like, I can see scum-RoyalApe trying to make Chaos look scummy for not voting, but I can't see a scum-RoyalApe doing some weird OMGUS to NakedJogger thing.

So would you say right now you are leaning to vote Skelda then?

[acryon]

I don't see what motive RoyalApe would have for doing that though. I don't see why he would choose to be defensive through Chaos. Like, I can see scum-RoyalApe trying to make Chaos look scummy for not voting, but I can't see a scum-RoyalApe doing some weird OMGUS to NakedJogger thing.

Yeah, I mean like I said it was pretty convoluted anyhow. But I could see getting a train getting started on someone else(Jogger), but it would look like Chaos started it, not RoyalApe.

So would you say right now you are leaning to vote Skelda then?

I would say I am between Bel and Skelda at this point.

[curiouskarmadog]

Replying, commenting, making notes to self as I go.

Do you feel that good questions make up for a lack of reads? I also notice that at times when the reply to one of Toby's questions is worth following up on someone else takes over. Not a fan of that,

questions, unlike reads, are a harmless way to stay involved in the game

.

agree with bolded on the most part. Surely you can gleans one's reads or inclinations through their questions. But actions do speak louder. In my read through I didnt notice a lack of reads from Toby out of the ordinary for day one. The only thing that stood out Toby was that vote on Snug. I didnt like it. It was a stretch to find a reason to vote.

So you don’t disagree with my assessment of him, you disagree that the moves are not scummy.

he clearly is pushing wagons, though. he has voted someone who he felt was townish. thoughts now?

He is voting for ape last I checked. Did I miss him voting a town read?
Where if so?
Chaos is scummy.
Did you read his last post?

post 133? vote on Beli but his attitude "seems town"? Now of course there is no reason to remove his vote (I guess) since Bel was in no way close to a lynch. what post number are you talking about here?

Are you talking about 236, it took me a second to figure out what you were talking about and referencing. So you are saying that Chaos is scummy for saying he is going to review the game and post and he is not doing so, even though he is “clearly” following the game. I know I for one will follow a game but not post (anything meaty) because of time constraints. Have you checked to see if he is posting a lot else where to firm up this theory? Why or why not? If he IS INDEED posting elsewhere and avoiding this game…that is something. Can you please check..my time is limited. I am also interested in Chaos’ reply to farside’s “case”.

Now the person I think comes off the scummiest IMO is nakedjogger. Nakejogger had been pushing for a RoyalApe lynch for most of D-1 and then out of nowhere votes Farside with no explanation? That seems scummy to me.

why? Why haven’t you voted her yet?

EDIT: He answers the same question from Royal in 307

I also agree with you that Amy seems town…but why do YOU think she seems town?

The Chaos wagon became a scummy place to be when it became clear that Chaos was going to be easy to lynch.

can you be a little more specific?

EDIT: Toby asks same question in 305, Skel sort of answered in 306

When exactly was the Chaos wagon a scummy place to be…is there a certain page?

You call Chaos and CKD town in 296. Chaos because he sounds like he believes everything in his posts even if it is wrong. CKD is town because he has convincing arguments and because "heck, most of these people are town".

it should be noted I asked Skele directly what he thought of me entering this game(this answer was not out of no where). i realized that there was no good way for him to answer that question. if he said town, he would be busted for saying everyone was town (to include me) which is part of my case against him...if he said scum, he would be busted for saying I was scum because I was attacking him. I am trying not to have tunnel vision based on my gut, because I tend to do that sometimes. I asked the question to see if he would answer it at all or just ignore.

again, my problem with Skele is not his town reads...that is not part of my case...it his HOW he provided these reads without being asked and in a buddying manner.

===

Skele, as of this moment in that game. Do you think RoyalApe is town or scum? Again, I am asking you directly where you are personally leaning today.

[farside22]

CKD: last I checked on chaos was ....I think Saturday. My head is a bit fuzzy with this cold. He did not post a lot elsewhere but I noted he had been online and didn't post when he was around. Not sure currently. I'll lay in bed and research more, but time has not been my friend lately.

As for my point against chaos it was here: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 9#p6194419

[Skelda]

I still think RoyalApe is scum. That never changed. You are exactly correct, I abandoned that wagon because it was proving to not be fruitful. If a whole bunch of people suddenly switched and said, "Ooo, RoyalApe, scummy." then I would be very happy to put my vote back there. But my Toby vote was just a compromise lynch of sorts.

And the whole thing about defensive being scummy...I think it is pretty normal for Town to want to defend themselves when they are being attacked. I get why doing that excessively is scummy, though. Gah, I am going to be lynched at some point in this game most likely. I just wish I wasn't so freaking suspicious all of the time.

And CKD, I didn't think I was buddying, I was just saying what I thought. How are you supposed to present townreads without seeming like you are buddying? If I have a feeling that someone is Town am I supposed to keep that to myself?

[Dry-fit]

My gut reaction to Skelda's post right above this is that it looks town. Gah. Catching up.

[farside22]

Took a look and chaos hasn't been around since Sunday.

Deadline is coming up. I still standby chaos as scum.
With skelda I don't get the case. I know players look for town reads, granted those are weak town reads reasoning but buddying....at a certain point that just fails as scum. I don't remember skelda voting a town read for bel. I recall skelda voted for bel and unvoting him based on a pretty weak town read.
Chaos follows Ramon did I spell that correctly?) post and then he doesn't follow up with who is scum pushing the wagon.
Bel is another player that concerns me. I don't see a lot coming from him for reads.
Those are still my top two scum reads. I have a few null reads I keep going back and forth on.

[Dry-fit]

Belisaurius is a wildcard for me. I still don't know what to think of him.

Why is Toby a bad vote?

I'm pretty confident she's town. In my top two town reads. Personally I like the little questions she's asking. It's a similar style to my town game, especially from a few years ago. I think town are more likely to ask these probing little questions because town wants very much to figure out what's going on. Scum pretty much know everything already so they aren't curious. I also feel like Toby hasn't been kissing up to anyone this game and is presenting her ideas in an open way.

We have a day left. I'm having second thoughts about Skelda but he's not an awful lynch. Would still massively prefer a Chaos lynch. Something needs to get done VERY soon though in any case. Nonvoters and scrambles need to make a relevant vote asap.

[scrambles]

Sorry guys I guess I shouldn't put it out there that im in japan for two weeks.
so, v/LA

Anyway, that chaos lynch was disbanded a little too easily for my liking. I feel like there's some biasing going on.
I currently dont like belisarius at all for that "derp, I have no scumreads" comment.

Nakedjogger and amy look like my best town reads right now but its possible im giving them that credit because of female avatars.
for amy, I really liked her selfvote early on, it said to me that she's really not feeling a whole lot of pressure. I know it was rvs but even so..

And for naked, she's pretty consistent and aggressive. I like her vote on beli and I especially like that she didnt put a reason in her vote post. It has hints of being a pressure vote, which comes off as town imo.

[scrambles]

Ugh phone posting.
corrections:
First line shouldn't is should
second line biasing is bussing

Oh and

vote beli

Im on board for that lynch

[scrambles]

Do we have a current vote count?

[curiouskarmadog]

I still think RoyalApe is scum. That never changed

Well here is the rub.

Post 318, Skelda to Royal.

And look, I get why my play doesn't agree with you. Maybe I'm throwing out townreads based on gut and my whims and maybe I'm changing my mind about reads or getting my reads all murky. Whatever. But there is a difference between disagreeing with the way I'm playing and thinking I'm scum.

I don't really expect you to change your mind about me and I'm probably getting lynched at some point regardless, so I'm not even sure why I'm trying to convince you.

This doesn’t sound like a post (from skelda) to someone they think is scum (Royal). IF you REALLY THOUGHT Royal was scum, you wouldn’t care why your play doesn’t agree with him. You don’t really expect him to change his mind? You are not sure why you are trying to convince him? If you thought he was scum, why are you arguing over the "difference between disagreeing and (Royal) thinking you are scum" If you are town and you REALLY THOUGHT Royal was scum, you wouldn’t bother trying to convince him OF ANYTHING. IF you thought Royal was scum and you are trying to convince us you are town, why do you care if Royal "thinks" you are scum.

Calling bullshit and my vote is confirm and set.

The above post reads more like scum, floundering and not understanding why their play is reading scum.

Can anyone explain to me the thought process behind someone that was town, making the above post to someone they supposedly thought was scum?

if we are late in the day, this lynch needs to happen. IF you disagree please explain why your vote and wagon is better NOW.

[curiouskarmadog]

Sorry guys I guess I shouldn't put it out there that im in japan for two weeks.
so, v/LA

Anyway, that chaos lynch was disbanded a little too easily for my liking. I feel like there's some biasing going on.
I currently dont like belisarius at all for that "derp, I have no scumreads" comment.

Nakedjogger and amy look like my best town reads right now but its possible im giving them that credit because of female avatars.
for amy, I really liked her selfvote early on, it said to me that she's really not feeling a whole lot of pressure. I know it was rvs but even so..

And for naked, she's pretty consistent and aggressive. I like her vote on beli and I especially like that she didnt put a reason in her vote post. It has hints of being a pressure vote, which comes off as town imo.

first of all, the chaos wagon didnt disband...the two leading wagons are Chaos and Skelda both at 3 votes.

your vote on Bel puts him at a competing wagon with 3 votes (to include your vote).

why didnt you add to the chaos wagon if you felt like he is scum?

what are your current thoughts on skelda?


nothing about this post and your actions are sitting well with me.

[Baezu]

Vote Count 1.10

TobyLoby: (1) Skelda
Chaoslord54: (3) Dry-fit, Snugglyduckling, Farside22
Skelda: (3) Curiouskarmadog , RoyalApe, Belisarius
Belisarius: (3) Amy Farrah Fowler, NakedJogger, scrambles
acryon: (2) TobyLoby, Ranon

Not Voting: Chaoslord54, acryon

With 14 alive, it takes 8 to lynch.

Deadline: (expired on 2014-09-09 18:18:00)

Mod Notes:
None

[Skelda]

VOTE: Beli I guess. I dunno, if I'm going to be lynched I guess I wouldn't have a huge objection to it being today. What I do not want to do is survive by a thread and then hang around as an easy mislynch for the rest of the game.

CKD, I'm sorry I don't act Town enough for you then. I'm honestly not sure what I was thinking at the time of that post, but I was just addressing his points and not paying attention to whether or not he was scum. And I mean, that's horrible obviously. That's just poor play on my part. I really hate when you have a case built up against you that has plenty of valid points, if it weren't for the fact that you were Town.

But like I said, I really see myself being lynched at some point anyway. I'm really glad I wasn't scum this game because then you would have been right.

[Skelda]

Oh, and I really hope we can get some sort of lynch before the day is up. If need be I'll switch to Chaos or myself just for the sake of a lynch.

[chaoslord54]

Hey guys sorry started back up school so been a little busy. Reading over right now and will make a post a bit later tonight.

[scrambles]

Hos curious
I definitely did not say anything about chaos being scum. You are putting words in my mouth and trying to shame me into voting him.
in my experience, scum like to ramp townies up til the edge and then bus other townies to make for easy combos.

Instead of playing into that game, im voting for my scum read.
lastly, it is disbanding. I can see people starting to focus on other reasonably suspicious people pike skelda. I dont think reasonably suspicious people are ever good lunches. Both chaos and skelda do the reasonably suspicious profile. Imo those are bad lynches.

[TobyLoby]

nyway, that chaos lynch was disbanded a little too easily for my liking. I feel like there's some biasing going on.

I don't get what you were trying to say here if you didn't think Chaos was scummy. If not then what?

Why are reasonably suspicious people bad lynches? If they are reasonably suspicious then why are they bad lynches?