Open 572: Nightless Vengeful Mayhem - Game Over

[Not_Mafia]

VC 2.02

Blair (0)-

Phillammon (0)-

Shaddowez (0)-

Thor665 (0)-

droog (0)-

YYR (0)-

acryon (0)-

Dyslexicon (0)-

wgeurts (5)-

droog, YYR, Thor665, Blair, Shaddowez

(L-1)

Fokem (0)-

Not Voting (5)-

Phillammon, acryon, Dyslexicon, wgeurts, Fokem

With

10

alive, it takes

6

to lynch.

Deadline is in

(expired on 2014-10-10 20:00:00)

- Oct 9th 19:00 GMT

[shaddowez]

NM, you're a bot aren't you?

[YYR]

I can't wait for the 3 people who haven't posted yet to wake to find their game at Day 2 with an L-1 wagon.

[Phillammon]

WHAT THE HELL JUST HAPPENED?

Reading back, for god's sake don't lynch anyone before I get back argh

[wgeurts]

I quick hammered because he already had 6 votes and I was impatient and am

new to mafia on this forum

I'm not buying the bolded part. Unless you've never, ever played mafia before, the theory should be the same wherever you played. Just because you're new on this forum isn't an excuse to quickhammer.

VOTE: wgeurts

I believe that's L-1.

Valid point however that forum wasnt dedicated to mafia and they didnt scutinize every word I say.

[wgeurts]

Im a VT, all we need is 1 vote to kill me so I'm going to try and explain all here.
I acted stupidly, I woke up saw the game had started and saw Cheetor had 6 votes. I in my morning stupidity was like "why not," and hammerd him. It was only later I read all the posts and realised how bad this choice was. If you let me live I'll show you I'm town, I have no possible way of justifying my actions.

[Phillammon]

Right then.

What with the quickhammer in their first post in the thread, I am not in any way opposed to wgeurts policy lynch. Particularly given the argument being used against it was "but the Vengekill hit scum, therefore it was a good lynch!".

Regarding everyone else, I haven't really seen enough yet to put much weight behind these reads, so take them with a pinch of salt- none of these are yet solid reads, treat them as "Mid-" reads if you like. Noone except for wgeurts has done anything overtly of either alignment, yet.

Townish:

droog

- I'll admit there's a bit of gut going on here, but droog's posts feel townish to me. I'm thinking that it's something to do with how he was challenging some of the pseudo-scumhunting that was going on. I'd still like to see more, though.

shaddowez

- shaddowez seems to be asking the right questions, which I feel is a good thing. Though there's not much on the surface, I feel like there's genuine scumhunting going on beneath the waterline, so to speak, which I feel is townish.

Thor665

-It annoys me how accurate the page he linked is. There's a lot of good substance to the posts, everything is being clearly explained, and the posts that are getting called out from Blair are the same ones that had me feeling a bit odd when I did her ISO- I admit it's a weakness of mine, but I find that people with similar thought processes to me are townish.

Neutral:

Blair

- Hey look, actually useful explained reads! There's what appears to be genuine scumhunting going on here, and I'm finding myself agreeing and/or appreciating most of the points being made. This said, there are a few statements that are getting made that have my hackles up for some reason, hence bumping down to neutral where that would ordinarily be a townread from me.

Dyslexicon

- Said some filler, jumped on the wagon, and made a post about having some weird gut feelings about Johnny. Not much substance, but there's one minor scummy action and one minor townie action, so I'm willing to let it balance out.

Scummy:

YYR

- I'd like to emphasize hard that this is NOT a solid scumread, it's just... it's about equal parts gut and the phrasing in posts #53 and #99 that just ever so slightly worry me. It's not much, but YYR's the only player who, to my eyes, has not done anything particularly townish while giving me a gut feeling on them of scum.

Haven't woken up yet:

Fokem
acryon

And of course, the coveted

LYNCH IT WITH FIRE

read goes to:

wgeurts

- For most of the reasons explained above. The fact that I am making this post in Day 2, not Day 1, should be enough to make this clear. I'm not going to hammer this one because I want to wait for the other two players to get in here, but seriously, quickhammering is not townish, whether it hits town or scum, because it shuts down discussion. Quickhammering town and then claiming it was a good lynch because it hit scum anyway is... just awful. It was a bad lynch, and even if it had been a good lynch, the way you went about it was terrible. And again, every argument you've made so far either has a glaring hole or is just plain not an argument.

This is the point where I'd ordinarily try to do wagon analysis, but 3 of the players being absent from D1 and 2 so far from D2 makes that somewhat redundant.

PEdit:

Oh, hi there!

...

So do you mean to say that that forum did not actually look for scum full stop? Cause what I'm hearing here is "I didn't scrutinize every word everyone said, therefore the reverse is also true"- Mafia kind of falls apart if you don't at least go over people's posts, or you end up no better than random chance, with a little bit of popularity contest thrown in. I've never seen mafia played on any forum (though I'll grant I've only frequented 3 other than this one) that didn't at least lend *some* scrutiny to people's posts...

PEdit AGAIN:

...What the actual hell. You didn't read the thread, then... wow.

"If you let me live I'll show you I'm town" translates as "If you kill me my flip will prove the opposite" in my Scum-to-English translator. Not least because there is basically no way you can "prove" that you're town beyond your flip. And literally all your behaviour up until this point has pointed to you not being town.

...also, why did this take two posts?

[wgeurts]

Can one vote oneself to prove a point?

[Phillammon]

...while you technically could, hammering oneself has all of the same problems that quickhammering does. Don't do that.

[Phillammon]

Apologies for the doublepost, but something you could do more usefully is give a list of reads. If you are genuinely town, you'll still be able to contribute by way of your reads. If you're scum, then we can disregard them. Or even better, figure out who your remaining partner is from your reads (though I admit that is very very WIFOMy).

[acryon]

Wow, I'm gone for the parts of the day I can't post and in 9 hours 2 people are dead O_O. This is a post to say I am here and looking things over. Will post what I have in a little while.

[acryon]

VOTE: wgeurts

Also if I accidentally use the name Keely it's referring to Cheetory6 and the name Young refers to YYR. Be back after dinner.

Cheetory, do you think this clarification is more likely to come from townJohnny or scumJohnny?

Pretend Cheetos have a direct answer. Then what?

1) a discussion about how useless meta is
2) a discussion of Johnny's past meta
3) a throwaway answer that leads nowhere
4) someone calls it dumb

^my best guess. I can't imagine any useful scumhunting coming from that question

I get this in some sense, but in the other I don't. It's literally page 2 at this point, so I think any discussion is good, even just to get some reactions. I don't like when players seem to be stifling discussion.

Then why did you opt for option #4?

Because I had nothing better to say

You have nothing better to say, so you tell someone else the things they are saying are dumb? Not sure I get this.

I townread Droog.
I would be willing to lynch Dyx as an alternate wagon.

What is making you town-read Droog? Additionally, why would you be willing to lynch Dyx? Naked reads don't help us much.

For saying that getting scum on D1 is crucial for town winning, Johnny is surprisingly okay with lynching someone he normally has a shitty time reading on D1.

This is interesting to me.

I don't have any experience with droog prior to this game, but I do tend to prefer using meta for my arguments, which is why I might seem so lost at the moment given the hardcore different playstyles here and the fact that I only know two people in this game thus far and didn't want to focus on just trying to read them. [especially since I usually struggle with reading Johnny and YYR in the games that I'm usually in with them]

I really don't like meta arguments. Asking a meta question to spur discussion is fine to me, but strongly basing reads on meta is dangerous. This doesn't necessarily ping, just a note.

*Picks up the axe and chops off the head*
VOTE: Cheetory
Majority reached, man I love waking up.

What the heck is this? Why would someone hammer this early and in the middle of discussion... Thank God cheetory was a sniper.

If that's your line of questioning, that's awful.

Re: Blair questioning Droog on the mislynch, I agree that line is awful.

It's banter, but if he thinks wgeurts is Town he should probably move his vote.

P-edit: @YYR

This didn't seem genuine to me. It's easy to say in response to someone calling you out that it was just banter, but I don't think I buy that.

I quick hammered because he already had 6 votes and I was impatient and am new to mafia on this forum. I've just read throigh all the posts and I look horrendously scummy right now and I know nothing I can say will change that. Atleast let me live a while to get more info.

This whole exchange is absolutely terrible. Then town-reads blair to appear town. It just gets worse and worse. I have never laughed out loud at this game before, but I am right now because of how horribly scummy wgeurts ISO is. This is one of those scenarios where a person will continue to muck up reads with their extremely scummy looks, and unfortunately those people are often town. I hate saying someone is too scummy to be scummy, but it does feel like that could be the case. Then again he could just be scum.

I'm not interested in hammering in my first real post. Finally, I think that if wgeurts isn't scum, blair is.

[acryon]

Some of the D1 comments may not really be relevant now, but I was just going through and commenting I what caught my eye.

[Dyslexicon]

Um...

@wgeurts, can you please direct me to games you've played that are done?

[droog]

Acryon

I pointed out yyr's lame question /because/ there was nothing better
It's not a contradiction because the first caused the second

I would rather be honest about a dumb question than pretend its in any way helpful
At risk of being the "I got us out of RVS guy"
Me calling the question provoked more discussion than the question

I'm null on Blair. Blair v Thor looks like semantics
Liked actions entrance

Leaning town on Thor

[wgeurts]

Um...

@wgeurts, can you please direct me to games you've played that are done?

I've only ever played 1 game before, none on this forum.

[acryon]

Acryon

I pointed out yyr's lame question /because/ there was nothing better
It's not a contradiction because the first caused the second

I would rather be honest about a dumb question than pretend its in any way helpful
At risk of being the "I got us out of RVS guy"
Me calling the question provoked more discussion than the question

I'm null on Blair. Blair v Thor looks like semantics
Liked actions entrance

Leaning town on Thor

Fair enough. I mean like I said I was just sort of giving my initial comments on things that stuck out to me at the time.

I am also null on Blair at the moment, but given wgeurts-town, I think Blair is scum. If wgeurts is scum, I think both Blair and Thor are town.

[Phillammon]

I've only ever played 1 game before, none on this forum.

For the love of god, the newbie queue exists for a reason...

In isolation, I'm not seeing enough Wgeurts/Blair interaction to follow your thought processes there regarding either/or scum. I'll take another look through the thread itself rather than ISOs when I have a chance, but would you mind giving a precis of why you're thinking that?

(If you already did so, sorry, I'll probably find it when I go through the thread again, so no need to respond if so)

[Dyslexicon]

I like Dys right now, but it could be the avatar.

(Do you like Twin Peaks) (This is between fluff an not fluff before y'all complain :3)

Vote: Cheetory

L-1

Anyone who isn't serious about this can flee like children now. We have a wagon at near lynch.

I don't know why but I find this sentence weird. And so I'm saying that.

I would be willing to lynch Dyx as an alternate wagon.

Rude! And why?

Goal for this game: Beat NM to a page top post.

I know the game just started tonight, but it would still be good to hear from the rest of the people.

Blair

- Why do you have a slight town read on Droog? I understand the null, but don't see anything townish yet. I know there are some people that like to townhunt rather than scumhunt early game. Is that how you usually play?

Also, I don't think "useful scumhunting" looks like something in particular

This looks like a useful defense for later in the game. What made you vote Cheetory?

Did Thor ever explain his town read of droog?

What do you mean by "useful defense"? It's how I view the game, basically. I voted Cheetory a bit because he was very calm and I was curious to why, and if more votes/larger wagon would get some kind of stuff happening, and a bit because why not.

yyr: move on from your question. what do you think of thor's entrance?

More votes on wagon are super neat.

deep breath
*sigh*

do you think thor looks town or scum
a thor read is not valid unless it is on someone who is not thor

What do you mean by this last bit? o.o

---

And then the quickhammer happened. -_-


So far, Blair is making a lot of sense to me. Not particularly alignemnt indicative, but how she doesn't explain some things or is more in the grey area of thing, but it still reads like a comprehensive town mindset to me. It's rather vague, but it's what I got on her.

YYR is indeed confusing me too (don't remember who said this, possibly Blair). He insisted on Cheetory saying Johnny was scummy (?) while I honestly read it more as a non answer as Cheetory claimed. He's dead now though. But yeah, didn't get that.

Thor I'm not reading as town, not reading as much of anything as of yet. Kind of forces on a lot of question and logic that seems too black and white. I could see it as a tactic to trip town up (if he's scum) cause town says a lot of weird things (at least in my experience). Past the style I find it hard to read alignment, buuuut there's more to be read.

That's the people that stood out most to me right now. Day 2, apparently.

[Dyslexicon]

Oh lol, I did't see Johnny was dead scum before now. Yay :3

[acryon]

I've only ever played 1 game before, none on this forum.

For the love of god, the newbie queue exists for a reason...

In isolation, I'm not seeing enough Wgeurts/Blair interaction to follow your thought processes there regarding either/or scum. I'll take another look through the thread itself rather than ISOs when I have a chance, but would you mind giving a precis of why you're thinking that?

(If you already did so, sorry, I'll probably find it when I go through the thread again, so no need to respond if so)

I did say it a little bit, but it was in a big jumble, so I'll make it more direct.
I didn't buy 106 from Blair. 103 seemed like trying to make the post from Droog look worse than it was, something scum likes to do.
110 doesn't seem genuine either. Looks like scum trying to make some town-buddies. The "I don't agree with you, but I think you're town" argument, while certainly not totally alignment-indicative, causes me to take a second glance, especially when used multiple times.
117 - This type of post trying to analyze someone else's scum-read on her just sounds to me like misdirection.
The questioning of wgeurts is null to me, because anyone could and would have jumped on questioning him, she was just the first there.

Long-story short - I don't think she is asking any particularly tough questions, especially outside of the conversation with Thor. It seems like she's jumping on opportunities to earn easy town-points.

[Thor665]

"Cover story"

"Attack"

"No sense at all"

Strong words, mind explaining them? I know you're working on lynching wgeurts at the moment, but I'm sure you can multitask.

Cover story - you claim that a post you made attacking me was, in fact, really a post made to ask me a question - despite needing to be placed under pressure to get said response...and doing nothing to seek an answer to the question till *after* said pressure. That makes the answer look fake, like a cover story, that only became real after you were forced to explain the attack.

Attack - you called my scumhunting and logic into question in an attempt to start building the foundation for a case for later.

No sense at all - your cover story fails to work if your goal was to get me to answer a question, and therefore makes 'no sense at all'.

Especially the second one, I don't recall "attacking" you.

In fact, I refused to vote you citing the same reason I wasn't voting for Cheetory - I disagreed with your logic but believed that you believed it.

So what was my scum motive behind this grand "attack" on you, Thor? To soft-townread you? Or was this just a clever ruse to discredit your case on Cheetory... who... actually flipped Town so I wouldn't really have a motive for hiding behind a "cover story" while I discredit that, either.

Up until this second you never revealed that you believed or disbelieved my stance, so you can't complain that I didn't include that idea in my case on you and it is disingenuous to do so.
When you call someone illogical (and hypocritical by inference) you are attacking them. This is hardly a shocking or strange stance on my part.
Scum motive would be to get town cred by defending a likely mislynch who would flip town while setting yourself up the next day to call the primary pusher of said wagon scummy for "illogic" attack, and then push to get me lynched. This is an incredibly basic scum strategy and considering the way you have talked about the game I do not believe for one second that you have no idea of it as a strategy.

Reading back, for god's sake don't lynch anyone before I get back argh

Can you explain your YYR read in relation to the Johnny flip?

Can one vote oneself to prove a point?

Only if one is scum.

What is making you town-read Droog? Additionally, why would you be willing to lynch Dyx? Naked reads don't help us much.

Naked reads help fine because they are statements of intent and belief.

I town read Droog for trying to cut through the dross early.
I scum read Dyx for actively shifting to bigger wagons while not bothering to pressure the people she was voting, half defeating the purpose of being on the bigger wagon. Looked fake scumhunty.

Thank God cheetory was a sniper.

Congratulating accuracy or is this a different rolename than I'm used to?

I'm not interested in hammering in my first real post. Finally, I think that if wgeurts isn't scum, blair is.

Why?

[Thor665]

Long-story short - I don't think she is asking any particularly tough questions, especially outside of the conversation with Thor. It seems like she's jumping on opportunities to earn easy town-points.

I agree with this, and have more opinions besides.

I fail to see the connection or lack of connection to wguerts you get from that. Clarify?

[acryon]

What is making you town-read Droog? Additionally, why would you be willing to lynch Dyx? Naked reads don't help us much.

Naked reads help fine because they are statements of intent and belief.

I town read Droog for trying to cut through the dross early.
I scum read Dyx for actively shifting to bigger wagons while not bothering to pressure the people she was voting, half defeating the purpose of being on the bigger wagon. Looked fake scumhunty.

I didn't say they were useless, but having the reasons helps a lot more, because maybe you caught onto something that someone else didn't, and that missing piece was what they needed to build a solid argument.

Thank God cheetory was a sniper.

Congratulating accuracy or is this a different rolename than I'm used to?

Just congratulatory.

I'm not interested in hammering in my first real post. Finally, I think that if wgeurts isn't scum, blair is.

Why?

If it's why to the second part, I answered that a couple posts ago, and as for the first part, I just jumped in, so I'd like to be a little more involved in the discussion and hear out some other cases before hammering.

[Thor665]

You actually didn't answer the second part in my opinion, it's why I made post 147 to state that.