Open 572: Nightless Vengeful Mayhem - Game Over

[Blair]

Finally home and finished reading over what I've missed - I'll try to check back in a few minutes if you have any quick questions for me, but otherwise I'll be needing to get some sleep and tomorrow is busier than today, so... terribly sorry, but it will probably be a while.

(Side note, Blair: #222 actually really amuses me because you're using a False Dichotomy to attack a perceived logical fallacy)(Don't do that, by the way)

Not that it matters, but for the record that post was a paraphrase of Thor's #48 - so if anything I was accusing Thor of a false dichotomy, not committing one myself (unless I've missed it, in which case feel free to mock my blindness mercilessly).

since nm took the trouble to send us all pms

VOTE: yyr

what do you think of everything thats gone down

Persuade me to lynch YYR - I don't see it, and the above was not overwhelmingly persuasive or informative.

dyslex, please talk to someone besides thor
who is doing a great job at absorbing all discussion
and preventing anyone else from having meaningful interactions

I did not like this. I thought you were townreading Thor - are you implying that he is intentionally stifling non-Thor discussion, or accidentally so?

Regardless, this invites other players to distrust Thor for generating literally any type of discussion (since any discussion he generates will involve him) without owning up to the suspicions yourself - am I wrong?

You are pretty apparently not reading this game. i am not debating understanding (I don't think it needs to be debated :rimshot: but you are clearly having issues with reading this game.
I do not believe you have read other games of mine.
I might buy that you lightly skimmed them, but if you'd read them enough to have opinions you would have opinions in this game - that is my point.
I am no more frustrated than normal in this game, and if you think I have a narrow focus I would challenge you to name the player I haven't interacted with...yeah.

This is annoying - whatever you were trying to accomplish here, I feel like it could have been done without making the completely unfounded (and unverifiable) claim that Dyslexicon isn't reading the game thread - or is basically illiterate, or whatever you were trying to say (am I poor at reading, too?)

Is this the old "Let's rile people up with personal sleights to get a better read on them under pressure" angle? Because I find it's generally poisonous to the overall dynamic of the game - please stop.

If I've misunderstood, I apologize.

---

Thoughts:

Thor:

Still prob-Town, personal irritants aside

droog:

...eh... you can be null now. I don't like your jab at Thor - I would like it better if it were accompanied by an updated Thor-read.

YYR:

There is almost nothing here. I won't even go into the WIFOM of whether scum would really risk this much lurk.

acryon:

Can go in the Town pile - #136 and #145 read as genuine scumhunting.

Dyslexicon:

Buddying me - and it seems to be working because I can't help but like you. Given the current thread-dynamics, I'm not sure I'm the best mark for scum to buddy right now so... null? Frustration with Thor definitely looks genuine, but scum have feelings, too so it's hard to say.

Phillamon:

Your post formatting is pretty (#131). That aside, in #183 you stated I'd used the word "illogical" to "go for the man" Thor himself, as a person - which is virtually impossible to honestly infer from a plain reading of the post in question, which leads me to believe you didn't actually look at the post when you wrote that. Which is interesting because you phrase it as though you arrived at this conclusion independently, not from cursory glances through my banter with Thor (which is where I believe it came from). You also fencepost your read on me in both #131 and #276. In both posts you make vague allusions to both townie and scummy things I have said and then throw your hands up in the air and say you can't make sense of it all - in neither case do you specify the townie and scummy points you are referring to, explain any of them, or appear to actually exert effort in discerning their meaning.

shaddowez:

Null again, since wgeurts flipped Town and my theory is shot. Not much activity out of this slot.

---

Hmm, looks like I should be voting for Phillamon; glad we got that sorted out.

Vote: Phillamon

[Blair]

Just saw the mod's post - who is Fokem?

Obviously this slot is null, too. (There hadn't been any replacements yet so I just scrolled through the ISO list to nab the usernames)

[Not_Mafia]

VC 3.01

Blair (0)-

Phillammon (1)-

Blair

Shaddowez (0)-

Thor665 (0)-

droog (0)-

YYR (2)-

droog, Phillammon

acryon (0)-

Dyslexicon (1)-

Thor665

Fokem (0)-

Not Voting (5)-

Shaddowez, YYR, acryon, Dyslexicon, Fokem

With

9

alive, it takes

5

to lynch.

Deadline is in

(expired on 2014-10-11 20:00:00)

- Oct 11th 19:00 GMT

[Phillammon]

I confess that I straight up have not been reading some of your banter with Thor more recently, largely because it appears to be going nowhere productive and is taking up a lot of space. Sorry about that.

Regarding you using the word illogical to attack the man:

you appeared to be attacking poor logic... illogically.

That quote right there is what I'm referring to. You are not referring to anything OTHER than Thor in that sentence. I get that that may not have been your intention, but I don't believe that you can't see that the argument was not mentioned in that block. You then used illogical in #193 to attack the argument, this much is true, and I think what you looked at when you made the last post.

My fenceposting on you has primarily been because you are commiting things that I both consider town and scumtells/town and scum behaviour. I did explain those, regardless of what you're claiming, but thankfully with your most recent post I've got more to throw on the pile with your YYR comment alone. Your request for reframe on the case on YYR- which has been reframed multiple times in posts between the posts you quoted, and thus you *must* have read if you were being thorough- strikes me as something of a stalling tactic on a slot that has been next to inactive and actively prod dodging in its most recent post. What it feels like you are trying to imply is that the slot's only garnering votes due to inactivity (which is not the case, search YYR in my and droog's ISOs), which is sorta corroborated by your list of reads. Trying to defend YYR against an attack which he isn't actually having used against him strikes me as really quite suspicious.

This said, you have spent a majority of your posts so far defending other players (and occasionally yourself), with no overt accusations being made against anyone until the most recent post. This strikes me as something townish- not making any judgements until you've had time to gather information, which is, again, a mark of genuine scumhunting. The fact you're attacking me rather than one of the more popular targets is also indicative of that- you appear to have arrived at Phillascum through your own thought processes. Shame they're wrong, but hey, it's better than not thinking at all.

[Blair]

I confess that I straight up have not been reading some of your banter with Thor more recently, largely because it appears to be going nowhere productive and is taking up a lot of space. Sorry about that.

Regarding you using the word illogical to attack the man:

you appeared to be attacking poor logic... illogically.

That quote right there is what I'm referring to. You are not referring to anything OTHER than Thor in that sentence. I get that that may not have been your intention, but I don't believe that you can't see that the argument was not mentioned in that block. You then used illogical in #193 to attack the argument, this much is true, and I think what you looked at when you made the last post.

No, right there I attack... the argument. Not "the man." I specifically designated his attack on Cheetory, not his overall play... and certainly not his

person.

How on earth do you get a personal attack from that?

[Blair]

My fenceposting on you has primarily been because you are commiting things that I both consider town and scumtells/town and scum behaviour. I did explain those, regardless of what you're claiming, but thankfully with your most recent post I've got more to throw on the pile with your YYR comment alone. Your request for reframe on the case on YYR- which has been reframed multiple times in posts between the posts you quoted, and thus you *must* have read if you were being thorough- strikes me as something of a stalling tactic on a slot that has been next to inactive and actively prod dodging in its most recent post. What it feels like you are trying to imply is that the slot's only garnering votes due to inactivity (which is not the case, search YYR in my and droog's ISOs), which is sorta corroborated by your list of reads. Trying to defend YYR against an attack which he isn't actually having used against him strikes me as really quite suspicious.

Fair enough, I can see why you feel that way - but I haven't found the YYR push compelling and don't consider it unreasonable to have it explained to me again if I am to be persuaded to join it (and if droog doesn't want me to join it then he really shouldn't be voting for YYR).

[Phillammon]

So you feel a strong urge to stand up for and defend this town read, i take it?

Yes, but not for it's own sake - it was more interesting to me that you appeared to be attacking poor logic... illogically.

I made it clear that it was not as overt as it could be, but you will note that SEVERAL operative words for attacking the argument are not in that sentence.

[Blair]

This said, you have spent a majority of your posts so far defending other players (and occasionally yourself), with no overt accusations being made against anyone until the most recent post. This strikes me as something townish- not making any judgements until you've had time to gather information, which is, again, a mark of genuine scumhunting. The fact you're attacking me rather than one of the more popular targets is also indicative of that- you appear to have arrived at Phillascum through your own thought processes. Shame they're wrong, but hey, it's better than not thinking at all.

Probably more than "occasionally" myself.

It took me a long time to start making "overt accusations" because, even though it's "Day 3," it's only been a couple real-world days since RVS. I keep forgetting this and panicking that I don't have more reads everytime I see "Day 3" at the top of the page...

P-edit: I think in the context (an unpopular word in this thread already, thanks droog ) of the discussion Thor and I were having at that time it's pretty clear what post I was referring to - and you will also notice several words for attacking the person are not in that sentence.

[Blair]

Anyway, I'd best be off - have a lovely day Phillammon. I'll finish lynching you later.

[droog]

blair,
too many words kills discussion
take dyslex as an example

who is what that comment was directed at:
"dyslex, please talk to someone besides thor"

[droog]

im still thinking thor is town
but have you ever had a brilliant case against scum
and they proceed to have a long form argument with you?

no one will read it
most people will develop town or null reads on you and your accuser
thats what the last few pages have felt like

[droog]

blair, i dont like the implication that my yyr vote was a lynching vote
it clearly was not -- i asked the guy a question

i dont like yyr and i will iso later but
dont tell me my vote wasnt informative
i already know that

[droog]

I confess that I straight up have not been reading some of your banter with Thor more recently, largely because it appears to be going nowhere productive and is taking up a lot of space. Sorry about that.

see

[droog]

My fenceposting on you has primarily been because you are commiting things that I both consider town and scumtells/town and scum behaviour. I did explain those, regardless of what you're claiming, but thankfully with your most recent post I've got more to throw on the pile with your YYR comment alone. Your request for reframe on the case on YYR- which has been reframed multiple times in posts between the posts you quoted, and thus you *must* have read if you were being thorough- strikes me as something of a stalling tactic on a slot that has been next to inactive and actively prod dodging in its most recent post. What it feels like you are trying to imply is that the slot's only garnering votes due to inactivity (which is not the case, search YYR in my and droog's ISOs), which is sorta corroborated by your list of reads. Trying to defend YYR against an attack which he isn't actually having used against him strikes me as really quite suspicious.

This said, you have spent a majority of your posts so far defending other players (and occasionally yourself), with no overt accusations being made against anyone until the most recent post. This strikes me as something townish- not making any judgements until you've had time to gather information, which is, again, a mark of genuine scumhunting. The fact you're attacking me rather than one of the more popular targets is also indicative of that- you appear to have arrived at Phillascum through your own thought processes. Shame they're wrong, but hey, it's better than not thinking at all.

something off here
not like phil is trying to suss out whether blair's scum

it feels like phil is trying to keep the option of lynching blair open to get a mislynch

let's call you null-scum

[droog]

i looked through yyr and found almost all of it scummy
only treating a few posts

if you want my opinion on the others pick one and i will have a ready explanation for why it means burn yyr with rope

[Thor665]

This is annoying - whatever you were trying to accomplish here, I feel like it could have been done without making the completely unfounded (and unverifiable) claim that Dyslexicon isn't reading the game thread - or is basically illiterate, or whatever you were trying to say (am I poor at reading, too?)

Is this the old "Let's rile people up with personal sleights to get a better read on them under pressure" angle? Because I find it's generally poisonous to the overall dynamic of the game - please stop.

If I've misunderstood, I apologize.

You ding me for riling Dyx up - but distance from it at the same time, all the while claiming uncertainty about what Dyx has been doing or what I am saying about Dyx, and then suggest riling people up is anti-town, all while basically trying to annoy me as you so grossly wet slap at what I'm saying here.

QUick reversal question instead.

Address my raised issue with Dyx about her statements regarding needing meta on me - go.
I'd love you to give actual commentary instead of this weird emotive commentary you seem focused to live within.

im still thinking thor is town
but have you ever had a brilliant case against scum
and they proceed to have a long form argument with you?

no one will read it
most people will develop town or null reads on you and your accuser
thats what the last few pages have felt like

I agree that other people are playing badly and equating walls with town play.
Dyx, who has read multiple of my scum games, should be able to tell you I post walls and do wall wars as scum.
This is a complaint about a playstyle that is only being a problem because the rest of the players here are using bad tells and weak scumhunting.

So...I agree with you, but I disagree with what the issue is.

[droog]

VOTE: wgeurts

classic rvs vote that doesn't need explaining
except

VOTE: wgeurts

Also if I accidentally use the name Keely it's referring to Cheetory6 and the name Young refers to YYR. Be back after dinner.

Cheetory, do you think this clarification is more likely to come from townJohnny or scumJohnny?

yyr already had an rvs vote. why change it?

The fact that Cheetory gave me a reason for thinking scumJohnny and not townJohnny when I asked makes me think he has better reasoning for voting Johnny over his initial vote, which I don't see going anywhere. I think he's being too conservative with his vote especially when Johnny has given out information that wasn't strictly necessary and he claims there's possible scum motivation behind it.

now this is the post to which yyr has to be referring
and it conveniently fits between the posts where yyr changed his vote

I guess it could be playing carefully/thinking a little far ahead if I stretch. Could easily be explained by the fact that Johnny might be nervous about playing on mafiascum for the first time in a year though so meh.

play this back

The fact that Cheetory gave me a reason for thinking scumJohnny and not townJohnny when I asked

I guess it could be playing carefully/thinking a little far ahead if I stretch. Could easily be explained by the fact that Johnny might be nervous about playing on mafiascum for the first time in a year though so meh.

cheetory never said anything like what yyr accused her of

now, its entirely possible that

yyr could manipulate, bandwagon, lurk, and fail to provide any meaningful scumhunting
(all in his first five posts)
without being scum

so i will show scum motive

remember how yyr created the day 1 wgeurts wagon by pushing it to 3 votes and then hopped off to vote for cheetory?

yyr: move on from your question. what do you think of thor's entrance?

More votes on wagon are super neat.

not only does he not commit to a read on thor in any way
he

admits that he likes wagon building

why again did he switch from wgeurts to cheetory?

Cheet, your argument is that you responded with a reason for scumJohnny to not detract momentum of some possible strategy I had in mind.

My argument is that I didn't say it was scummy. You're putting words in my mouth. Read my response again and stop insinuating things I didn't actually say.

No, the first part of that paragraph is saying what I just said unless you want to reinterpret the first part of that paragraph for me. You're playing semantics if you didn't say he was scummy but instead only gave a reason that could mean he's scummy. Then what was the point of the exchange you and I had if you're essentially saying you said nothing of interest?

that paragraph is a mess so i'll break it down

No, the first part of that paragraph is saying what I just said unless you want to reinterpret the first part of that paragraph for me.

yyr says cheetory gave a reason why johnny could be scum -- which she did not do

You're playing semantics if you didn't say he was scummy but instead only gave a reason that could mean he's scummy.

yyr says that cheetory must have been calling johnny scummy
she gave a reason why he could be scum!

Then what was the point of the exchange you and I had if you're essentially saying you said nothing of interest?

so he accuses her of either contributing absolutely nothing
but this was in response to a situation

he created

that could not possibly have contributed anything

(which i pointed out earlier on day 1)

in short:

1) yyr's initial question was a horribly-worded meta question to which any answer is manipulable
2) yyr manipulated cheetory's answer
3) this provided yyr with a 'case' on cheetory
4) which scum would have needed for a mislynch

thor, none of us were building caes on cheetory.
the wagon on her was a classic day 1 first wagon
yyr alone was arguing that cheetory was scum

he set up the situation that let him argue cheetory was scum in the first place

as a final point, take a look at what yyr started doing day 2:

VOTE: wgeurts

Debating whether Johnny would make such a weak push on a Blair as a scummate. Seems a little too weak for it to be the strong busing I know Johnny is willing to do. Don't know how much he'd be willing to do in for this setup, though. Meh.

it's the same pattern

[acryon]

Prod dodge for now. Will post a good bit tomorrow morning after reading over everything.

[Not_Mafia]

YYR has requested replacement

[Not_Mafia]

Bins replaces Fokem

[Bins]

Hiya.

[droog]

heyo

thoughts?

[Bins]

I'm currently reading up. I expect to have a post out by tonight, if not, I probably got distracted by America's Next Top Model or something.

[Bins]

Are you an alt?

[droog]

yes, why?