Open 566: Murder on the Oriental Express (Game Over)

[scrambles]

WiFOM alert: If, hypothetically, scum-Riddle was trying to push a case on you by making such a post, why would he say he was joking after one person posted about his comment? Wouldn't it make more sense for scum-Riddle to keep pushing the comment made on that post to get a scrambles (hypothetical) mislynch?

Wifom indeed. I see no reason to respond to why you would do something that you did.

[ChannelDelibird]

I don't believe it's a case of liking your argument or not, I believe that I have explained objectively why said argument is invalid.

Invalid based on your experience with mafia/Titus.

No, not the anecdotal part of it. I'm talking about this post right here.

You argued that, on the context of this game, Titus doing what she was doing to a greater extent than anyone else in this game made her scummy. It is this argument that I believe has been explicitly debunked in the linked post.

Jesus, this game is so tiring. And it's really the worst possible time for Toby, who is pretty much at the top of my town list, to have not posted anywhere on site for five days.

[acryon]

I don't believe it's a case of liking your argument or not, I believe that I have explained objectively why said argument is invalid.

Invalid based on your experience with mafia/Titus.

No, not the anecdotal part of it. I'm talking about this post right here.

You argued that, on the context of this game, Titus doing what she was doing to a greater extent than anyone else in this game made her scummy. It is this argument that I believe has been explicitly debunked in the linked post.

Well it is both. She is both doing it (what I believe to be) a scummy amount and doing it a lot more than anyone in this game, which, combined with the rest of her ISO, I think makes her scummy. The problem is there are no universal rules of scum, especially if the scum is a strong player, so both sides of this are shaded by personal experience and feeling.

As I said, I am willing to step back from this for now, as I don't think this Titus-pushing is doing much to help town at the moment. I would rather spend our time developing other reads.

[Green Crayons]

Green Crayons

, comments on what I've said in #1224 and #1225 please

I'm referencing Post 1076 and Post 1077, where you make your points against CKD:

Your Point 1): Like I said in Post 1205, I think you're comparing apples and oranges in comparing a player's scum-reads versus town-reads. I think your Post 1224 inferences are a stretch, to put it charitably, based merely off of the fact that CKD asked another player, once, to further explain their town read on one other player.

Your Point 2): Like I said in Post 1087: "Bel's play was super weird (undoubtedly on purpose) in this game and I don't want to read too much into what he did or did not do/say/vote. I think more useful analysis will come out of how other players acted (or failed to act) towards Beli." Your Point 2 is attempting to make connections based on what Beli said. I don't find that persuasive, because Beli was basically fucking with the town.

Your Point 3): I already stated that I was interested in CKD's response back in Post 1084. I don't think he has, or I missed it.

[Green Crayons]

As I said, I am willing to step back from this for now, as I don't think this Titus-pushing is doing much to help town at the moment. I would rather spend our time developing other reads.

Ah, so we return to:

Yo, acryon. We get it. You don't like how Titus is playing. Unless if you want to vote Titus because you think she is scum, I'm going to consider your "motivational" vote to be suspicious in light of the fact that we already have a flipped scum (best source of info) and it's Day 3 (plenty of material to work off of). That is, your vote makes you look active and engaged, but you aren't actively engaging in scum hunting.

You've approved the Amy pressure, but not enough to join the wagon.

You've disapproved of Titus' playstyle, and made much hay out of it.

That's all well and good, but who would you like to see lynched today?

[Green Crayons]

What point do I need to make the point should be self-evident.
Titus called me a liar despite me previously having a discussion with him where I SPECIFICALLY said that I played on another site.
She made an accusation and I wanted to see her back it up. She cannot. And she didnt even quote the post riddle did, which actually is the better accusation. So, in my opinion, she was throwing shit at the wall to see what sticks. It was a baseless accusation.
On top of which ive made mo secret about my experience whatsoever. When asked about it, I divulged. Im being accused of covering ip something I never said.

With cdb I asked him to repeat because again, im being accused of something I never said. When I ask people to quote me its because I want to see if their accusation is actually coming from scumhunting or momentum pushing. I see the purpose in asking why a scum read changes. I dont see the point in asking why scumteam haven't changed.

w/r/t Titus: I just re-double checked a Titus/scrambles ISO.

- Titus first quoted the posts where she observed a discrepancy in Post 1048.
- You then take inconsistent positions: (1) you acknowledge her point but simply state that it's wrong (Post 1089) and then (2) you then immediately have no idea what she's talking about (Post 1090).
- When she links you to her observation of your inconsistency in Post 1092, which

in and of itself explains why she thinks your positions are inconsistent

("These two posts strongly imply you have played more than one game that just ended Tuesday." when you previously said you had played only one game on MS and completed one game on another site), you simply ask her to explain herself in Post 1094.

Like, reading through it, I think there is a clear miscommunication here. It appears that you have played only one game on MS, have just completed one other game on another site, but

have also

played other games on that other site. This third point is not really implied in anything you said, and therefore your statements about your limited play conflict with your statements about your vast experience.

THE POINT BEING: all of that could have been resolved if you simply made explicit that your experience offsite is more than the single game you completed on Tuesday of last week (or whenever). Instead, you argued for arguments sake, making a whole bunch of not very helpful discussion crop up.


w/r/t CDB:

Scrambles, I ask because this is the most recent post of yours that I can find on an iso-scan declaring your list of scumreads (though acknowledging that you've since moved me to null-pending); let me know if I'm missing one. But now you're accusing Riddleton of "deliberately distorting content". So is

Riddleton on your scumlist now?

What does that mean for Titus and CKD?

Yeah that was only four hours ago. Someone doesn't just switch slots over one post.

So you think he was "deliberately distorting content" but is not scummy?

lol if you think this is CDB accusing you of saying that Riddle is or isn't scummy, as opposed to CDB saying that you said Riddle was "deliberately distorting content" and then asking if you don't think that such actions are scummy. The quotation marks are there for a reason: to denote your quoted words. The question mark is there for a reason, too: to denote that he has a question.

I don't see how you could misread that as anything else, and thus I see you once again engaging in unnecessary argument instead of simply just responding to a post.

[scrambles]

Ill answer when im at a pc but just a note that 1089 was directed at you, not titus.
secondly, thanks but I already came to that conclusion and posted the mistake with cdb myself.

[scrambles]

Cdb is asking me why I think riddle is null but I accused him of saying something scummy.
hes pointing out a contradiction. Thats clear. 100% clear so dont try and tell me different. The entirety of the question is based on both statements.
anyone with eyes can tell you that, and im 100% sure also, that cdb would agree thats what he was saying. Any other easily debunked statements you care to make?

[Green Crayons]

So your argument with Titus was pointless, and you're sticking to your guns about being wrong about CDB. That's cool. No need to further engage an argument about you arguing just to argue.

[Titus]

Alright scrambles, just how experienced are you? I need to know this in order to know how to exactly read you. What is the name of your homesite?

[Baezu]

Vote Count 3.04

scrambles: (2) Titus, Green Crayons
Titus: (1) acryon
acryon: (1) ChannelDelibird
Curiouskarmadog : (1) Riddleton
ChannelDelibird: (2) Amy Farrah Fowler, Curiouskarmadog

Not Voting: scrambles, TobyLoby, Farside22

With 10 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.

Deadline: (expired on 2014-10-13 16:30:00)

Mod Notes:
Prodding TobyLoby

[acryon]

That's all well and good, but who would you like to see lynched today?

At this point, I'm not sure. We still have 5 days, so I'm hoping to get a better read in the next 1-3.

[farside22]

First off.
So freeeking happy to be on a computer instead of phone posting all these pages I'm behind.


scrambles this post tells me nothing about the why's or show's post that gives an example. For example where did this

He seems to agree with a lot of the things I say, and at other times he goes directly against them and tries to massage my opinions.He comes off as manipulative.

come from. I don't have a clue.
As for CBD. I read his views on Amy but I have forgot a lot about what he posted. Is there something in CBD's post worth noting for you?

Saw this from GC.

- I don't care for acryon's interaction with Titus. acryon has been slowly but consistently ramping up his beef with Titus (compare Post 877, where Titus's Beli-hammer "isn't exactly scummy" with Post 1083, where Titus has already started shifting his Titus-vote from a motivational vote into a voting-for-scum vote). And he's gone out of his way to get into conflict with Titus (Post 998 and Post 1003).

@Acryon can you please explain why you went from not seeing titus scummy to calling him out today? Yes I saw post 1099, just wondering why you called it out today and saw nothing wrong day 2.

I haven't read the longer posts on this page thoroughly yet but I'm now reasonably sure that acryon is my preferred lynch.

PEDIT: Increasingly sure.

Explain to me like I'm a child who doesn't get it. Just a peeve, I dislike when people throw out reads with no reasoning. It is null but I don't care about town reads (unless I'm scum reading the player) I care why X is scum and the one issue with Titus replacing is he voted for Chaos for VCA and then hammer Beli all while saying next nothing about why.
It does bother me when players do not explain there scum reads as I see it from scum as well.

I also would join a Farside wagon too (sorry dear, people who say you and CD are scum keep dying)

WIFOM is my friend.

Sorry but if you read my meta you know I tend to target those that are town reads first and then worry about those that see me scum second.

@Scrambles, I come with two modes. Serious and more serious.

@Acryon, I gave specifics. Scrambles is lying about being a noob and Channel is scumhunting despite his (mistaken) belief he has caught Amy scum. The votes reflect Amy is town.

You and scrambles doing the circle jerk defense isn't looking too good.

Limited activity due to work

There is only one scum left in the game!
Sorry but that's just silly. Anyone not scum hunting to look for the remaining two scum would be more suspicious then someone who believes they found scum and still scum hunt.
Please explain why in your view CBD still scum hunting is scummy?

Stopped at the end of page 46

[acryon]

@Acryon can you please explain why you went from not seeing titus scummy to calling him out today? Yes I saw post 1099, just wondering why you called it out today and saw nothing wrong day 2.

Sure thing. At the point that day 2 ended, Titus only had 8 posts, so it wouldn't make any sense to have a problem with her posting at that point, but she has posted 30+ times since then. Once she started posting more day 3 is when I recognized what I did as a pattern.

[Titus]

CDB scumhunting in his spot was why he isconftown to me. Yhat post alone looks like I say the opposite. Sorry for the confudion Farside.

[acryon]

@GreenCrayons

What do you think of RoyalApe's reads? Especially near the end, there wasn't much from him, but specifically his reads in 327: "AFF, acryon and CKD in my goodish pile. chaos is in my scumish pile"

[Titus]

@Acryon can you please explain why you went from not seeing titus scummy to calling him out today? Yes I saw post 1099, just wondering why you called it out today and saw nothing wrong day 2.

Sure thing. At the point that day 2 ended, Titus only had 8 posts, so it wouldn't make any sense to have a problem with her posting at that point, but she has posted 30+ times since then. Once she started posting more day 3 is when I recognized what I did as a pattern.

You mean a pattern of hunting you and scrambles? Your post deliberately leaves out what this pattern is making it vague and worthless. It also encourages the reader to fill ina hypothetical pattern and you could agree to anything.

[acryon]

@Acryon can you please explain why you went from not seeing titus scummy to calling him out today? Yes I saw post 1099, just wondering why you called it out today and saw nothing wrong day 2.

Sure thing. At the point that day 2 ended, Titus only had 8 posts, so it wouldn't make any sense to have a problem with her posting at that point, but she has posted 30+ times since then. Once she started posting more day 3 is when I recognized what I did as a pattern.

You mean a pattern of hunting you and scrambles? Your post deliberately leaves out what this pattern is making it vague and worthless. It also encourages the reader to fill ina hypothetical pattern and you could agree to anything.

Are you kidding? I spent several pages discussing the pattern already.

Sorry for the massive wall, but there has been a clear

pattern

in her play that needs to be pointed out. Let's also think for a second about what kind of person calls people town for no reason.

Again, I never said there was an absolute rule, but it has always been about the

pattern

. Scum are never defined by one anti-town action, but

patterns

instead.

[acryon]

Are you even paying attention?

[acryon]

Not only that, but you use your inattention to try to make me look scummy? Come on.

[scrambles]

Alright scrambles, just how experienced are you? I need to know this in order to know how to exactly read you. What is the name of your homesite?

vgchartz

[scrambles]

my handle is theprof00

[scrambles]

What point do I need to make the point should be self-evident.
Titus called me a liar despite me previously having a discussion with him where I SPECIFICALLY said that I played on another site.
She made an accusation and I wanted to see her back it up. She cannot. And she didnt even quote the post riddle did, which actually is the better accusation. So, in my opinion, she was throwing shit at the wall to see what sticks. It was a baseless accusation.
On top of which ive made mo secret about my experience whatsoever. When asked about it, I divulged. Im being accused of covering ip something I never said.

With cdb I asked him to repeat because again, im being accused of something I never said. When I ask people to quote me its because I want to see if their accusation is actually coming from scumhunting or momentum pushing. I see the purpose in asking why a scum read changes. I dont see the point in asking why scumteam haven't changed.

w/r/t Titus: I just re-double checked a Titus/scrambles ISO.

- Titus first quoted the posts where she observed a discrepancy in Post 1048.
- You then take inconsistent positions: (1) you acknowledge her point but simply state that it's wrong (Post 1089) and then (2) you then immediately have no idea what she's talking about (Post 1090).
- When she links you to her observation of your inconsistency in Post 1092, which

in and of itself explains why she thinks your positions are inconsistent

("These two posts strongly imply you have played more

than one game that just ended Tuesday.

" when you previously said you had played only one game on MS and completed one game on another site), you simply ask her to explain herself in Post 1094.

Like, reading through it, I think there is a clear miscommunication here. It appears that you have played only one game on MS, have just completed one other game on another site, but

have also

played other games on that other site. This third point is not really implied in anything you said, and therefore your statements about your limited play conflict with your statements about your vast experience.

THE POINT BEING: all of that could have been resolved if you simply made explicit that your experience offsite is more than the single game you completed on Tuesday of last week (or whenever). Instead, you argued for arguments sake, making a whole bunch of not very helpful discussion crop up.


w/r/t CDB:

I don't see how you could misread that as anything else, and thus I see you once again engaging in unnecessary argument instead of simply just responding to a post.

Ok, so first of all, no inconsistency as that post1089 was directed at you, hence why I quoted titus in the next quote answering her.
Secondly, I thought she was asking me about how busy I was because I hadn't been posting that much.
"Can you link me to all finished games you have and include the proximate timeframe."
The timeframe was what made me think that. Number of games I had played wasn't even a thought that had crossed my mind at the time.

I asked her to explain because:
1. I never meant that I only had ONE finished game. I meant I just finished A game. I didn't go to link them like she asked because our forum is a news forum, not a BBS forum like this one. Having recently looked up a player here, I saw that you could see all the games someone has played extremely easily. On my site, I have to go to google and search one by one for each game. It's time consuming.
Even in the following post I said,
"Even if it's her first game on the site, she's likely played before. However, the meta here is incredibly different to my site's so I could see if her behavior here seemed off. In my experience though, she doesn't come off as scum. The only way I could see her attempting a wifom play here is if she was either familiar with this site's meta, or her site's meta was similar to this one's. Generally, I find erratic behavior to be very townish. I'm always more concerned with the more cautious players and then ones that have strong arguments backed up with lots of posts."
And then I said that I'm known for getting into massive arguments with people. And even said I'd love for titus to join us sometime.

I think it's pretty clear that I have played games. Just because you say "it wasn't implied in anything you said" doesn't make it a true statement. Ie; it doesn't contradict if you're willing to read it objectively, which means that the issue here is how it was misread by Titus and yourself.
What would a claim of limited experience even do for me? Seriously. I've said several times throughout the game "in my experience". You're just reading it as a contradiction because you WANT to see a contradiction there. Period.

[Green Crayons]

@GreenCrayons

What do you think of RoyalApe's reads? Especially near the end, there wasn't much from him, but specifically his reads in 327: "AFF, acryon and CKD in my goodish pile. chaos is in my scumish pile"

Ape himself didn't give much of a reason for his reads, so I take your question as simply asking me how do I feel about those players.

- AFF looked town throughout most of my read through. I didn't notice her drop off in activity until someone posted it. That alone isn't necessarily alignment indicative, even though CDB did his darndest to make it so, so that doesn't sway me one way or the other. I don't care for her extreme reaction to being put under pressure, but not enough to overcome her pretty solid town play earlier in the game. Lean town.

- acryon didn't really strike me one way or the other through my read. Could be due to the fact that -- as others pointed out, not something I picked up on my own -- he plays "devil's advocate" way too much and simply appears to question every position rather than ever taking a position. That alone is suspicious, but the jury's still out. Waiting to see if the next 1 to 3 days will give him insight that the previous however many real life days haven't. Null, lean scum.

- CKD proclaimed from the hilltops that chaos was scum and Beli was town. Even in the face of an ever-growing Beli-wagon. Ballsy move for a CKD-scum to make, but certainly not unthinkable. Regardless, that play inclines me to put him in the town pile. He appears competent and thinks his suspicious out in a pretty understandable manner, which means he's pretty transparent. Also, the basis of his suspicious aren't necessarily horrible (NK analysis), but I wish he would put more meat on the bones of that case. NK analysis alone does not make the basis of a lynch, and resting on simply that doesn't inspire confidence. Also, I just don't see Riddle's case against CKD. Town.

- chaos I read as an inexperienced, not particularly well engaged town during my read through. I reevaluated that position in light of Toby's Post 951, which makes a case against the chaos slot on the basis of how chaos did (not) act towards Beli, and I would vote the slot based on that analysis. One thing that gives me pause is the fact that chaos entered the game following Beli's farside-vote with a farside-vote of his own, which would be a bit weird for a scum partner to do -- but then again, that could be chalked up to WIFOM or being new.

As for CDB, who replaced into the slot, I think his case on Amy was uninspiring. The fact that he walked away from that case, even though he failed to justify

why

he was backing away (I noted this back in Post 1087) does not look good. It's a town thing to say "hey, I'm not sure about my case, I recognize that it's not perfect, etc." CDB, on the other hand, backed away from his AFF case in Post 1046 even though he appeared to be still all about his AFF suspicions in Post 1045, and his justification for the unvote was simply because he wanted to hear alternatives (which doesn't require an unvote). Feels too manufactured.

[Green Crayons]

Oh, chaos/CBD is scum under my read of the slot's play, and I would be willing to vote.