Open 570: Making Friends and Enemies (Mafia Wins!)

[Huntress]

Huntress, I'd love it if you explained why you say/do things.

You never answered my 1296 either.

Because I haven't had time. I haven't ignored your post; it's just that I haven't had the peace and quiet I need to concentrate on this over the last couple of days, so what you're getting from me is impressions rather than worked out reads.

[Wisdom]

Okay.. I expect worked out reads from you in the near future then.

[davesaz]

Previously answered. I had a scum read on NPAU.

The timing. You reacted to my post. This indicates that my post influenced what you did. My observation is more about what I was doing, which was trying to get people to agree on a lynch. Which, from my stated belief that a mislynch is better than a no lynch, is perfectly in character with how I should act as town. Not to mention, at that point in time I still thought it more likely NPAU to be scum than town. The later reservation on my part was

partially

triggered by the speed with which you changed your vote.

Already answered in 1287. There is no contradiction, these are not mutually exclusive concepts. It is perfectly valid for them to both be true.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Peabody

[Wisdom]

While we wait for peabody to appear, wagon Josh with us

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Josh is town.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I didn't like his student vote on me though when my wagon looked like taking off.

I'll take a closer look.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Student vote. That's funny.

Sudden is what I meant.

I can get behind a Josh wagon.

VOTE: Josh

[Wisdom]

Just for the vote? Did you see his recent posts?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Yeah I have seen his recent posts.

I haven't gone into much detail, I will be doing so tomorrow though.

I don't like his posting in general, I said earlier that I thought one of Dave/Josh was scum and I think I was conf. bias reading Josh's posts as town. Also, after re-reading what Shinbi was saying about Josh's last minute vote on MS end of D1 and no follow up D2, I'm happy voting him for now until I can investigate further myself.

[Josh_B]

Oh god please make this wagon quick.

BBT when you do anti-town things in a game like tunnel a townie to death just because they weren't on a lynch wagon, expect to be FoS'd.
When you do it two games in a row, you're either scum or playing against your wincon.

Please take a look at this game. http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... &start=250

and compare it to this one. I was 50% right in the linked game that two people pushing bad cases were scum, but to see one of those players attempting to go through the same motions again, I can only assume that the same results are expected.

If you don't want to read all of DP2, that's fine.
Just ISO Asher Kendrell and BlueBloodedToffee.
Then compare those same DP2 actions to Shinobi and BlueBloodedToffee in this game.

And if you don't want to do that, vote josh.

[Josh_B]

vote: josh

If you don't believe Uctriton, or me, that he's town, look at this OMGUS that proves it.

I cannot recall a scum OMGUSing a player for calling them town in the history of ever!
Also, I don't think shinobi came out ahead in the convo with Uctriton. I think Uctriton came out ahead. I really liked his tactic of having Shinobi make a case on him. I honestly don't think that ever happened.

[Shinobi]

So your read on me is based on something you aren't even sure happened?

Thank you for reading the thread.

[Shinobi]

Also, you've never refuted my case on you. Ever. Calling it bad repeatedly is just a waste of time because I'm not going to listen to you if that's all you're going to say.

If you have an actual defense for what you were doing at the end of day 1, then by all means go for it. I haven't seen anything that you've posted that indicates any kind of reasonable defense.

[beastcharizard]

Prodded Hephaestus.

[Wisdom]

vote: josh

If you don't believe Uctriton, or me, that he's town, look at this OMGUS that proves it.

I cannot recall a scum OMGUSing a player for calling them town in the history of ever!
Also, I don't think shinobi came out ahead in the convo with Uctriton. I think Uctriton came out ahead. I really liked his tactic of having Shinobi make a case on him. I honestly don't think that ever happened.

Do you know what omgus means..? You don't seem like you do.

Explain why uctriton seemed townier in that 1v1. Explain your peabody townread. Stop dodging.

[Wisdom]

BBT when you do anti-town things in a game like tunnel a townie to death just because they weren't on a lynch wagon, expect to be FoS'd.
When you do it two games in a row, you're either scum or playing against your wincon.

We already went through that. BBT tunnels. As both alignments. His tunnels landing on town isn't going to change his playstyle. At least not anytime soon.

[Josh_B]

Wisdom, I know that you are not a retard who can't read. Why are you dodging my answers?

I said Peabody was probably town, and I've said that I'll consider his answers to your questions as far as determining his alignment further.
Peabody hasn't answered your questions, therefore there is no reason for me to change my read on him being probably town. As far as a current read: POE, him not appearing to be suspicious, there being actually suspicious things from other players, gut.

Uctriton appears more town based on him forcing Shinobi to explain the case.

BBT has presented a case in this game that he used in a previous game, which resulted in town death.

And there plenty of uses for OMGUS votes. In this case
Me: Uctriton is town
Uctriton: OMGUS- Vote:you.
I think that if Uctriton were scum, he would be happy to have someone town read him. If he is town like he says he is, he might feel like being called town is suspicious.

[Wisdom]

As far as a current read: POE, him not appearing to be suspicious, there being actually suspicious things from other players, gut.

PoE? So you have found the whole scumteam and you are so sure about everyone of them that it makes Peabody town?
How is he not suspicious? Even if you disregard his deadline behavior that is scummy as all hell, look at the total of his game: I only see robotic posts and no contribution. Do you see different? Do you see anything in his posts that might indicate he is town? Surely there must be something, if your gut says he is town.

Uctriton appears more town based on him forcing Shinobi to explain the case.

Why? Can't scum force people to explain their cases on them?
I need to reread the 1v1 because I don't remember much of it, but I do believe Shinobi was the one trying to sort out uctriton while uctriton stood there tunneling and ignoring everything Shinobi was saying.

And there plenty of uses for OMGUS votes. In this case
Me: Uctriton is town
Uctriton: OMGUS- Vote:you.
I think that if Uctriton were scum, he would be happy to have someone town read him. If he is town like he says he is, he might feel like being called town is suspicious.

OMGUS means: Oh my god, you suck (for voting me). It's used when x votes y for the sole reason that y voted x. It does not apply to townreads.
Uctriton might be scum seeing your wagon having potential so he decided to join it. Why not consider this possibility?
And he didn't even say anywhere that he voted you for calling him town, that's your own reasoning.

And seriously what is with "he says he is town so he's town"?

[Shinobi]

Wisdom, I know that you are not a retard who can't read. Why are you dodging my answers?

I said Peabody was probably town, and I've said that I'll consider his answers to your questions as far as determining his alignment further.
Peabody hasn't answered your questions, therefore there is no reason for me to change my read on him being probably town. As far as a current read: POE, him not appearing to be suspicious, there being actually suspicious things from other players, gut.

Uctriton appears more town based on him forcing Shinobi to explain the case.

BBT has presented a case in this game that he used in a previous game, which resulted in town death.

And there plenty of uses for OMGUS votes. In this case
Me: Uctriton is town
Uctriton: OMGUS- Vote:you.
I think that if Uctriton were scum, he would be happy to have someone town read him. If he is town like he says he is, he might feel like being called town is suspicious.

Yeah, but that only explains the townread after you already townread him for next to nothing. He voted you for calling him town for no reason, and the fact that he voted you makes him town anyway?

You can't call him town after you've already called him town because your initial townread was still suspicious.

[Wisdom]

I need to reread the 1v1 because I don't remember much of it, but I do believe Shinobi was the one trying to sort out uctriton while uctriton stood there tunneling and ignoring everything Shinobi was saying.

Need to correct this after rereading.

The reason I felt Shinobi was townier from the 1v1 wasn't this, it was the tone and passion in his posts. He thought he had found scum and that said scum was trying to reverse the suspicion into making people think Shinobi is scum instead.
On the other hand, uctriton was really calm and just kept answering with sheer logic.

IME, scum use the latter approach because they want to look good and earn cred, while townies flail without putting limits because they don't care. That's why I felt uctriton wasn't as town as Shinobi there.

Now that I reread though, I could see both being town. uctriton's actions weren't that unreasonable given Shinobi was tunneling.

[Shinobi]

I need to reread the 1v1 because I don't remember much of it, but I do believe Shinobi was the one trying to sort out uctriton while uctriton stood there tunneling and ignoring everything Shinobi was saying.

On the other hand, uctriton was really calm and just kept answering with sheer logic.

IME, scum use the latter approach because they want to look good and earn cred, while townies flail without putting limits because they don't care. That's why I felt uctriton wasn't as town as Shinobi there.

Now that I reread though, I could see both being town. uctriton's actions weren't that unreasonable given Shinobi was tunneling.

I don't think this is entirely accurate. Uct started asking people if they saw any "town motivation" in my posts and started spamming up the thread. It looked rather panicky. Then he OMGUS'd me based on the fact that I hadn't posted my case, which I hadn't posted because I was pressuring him to answer some of my questions to make it stronger or weaker.

I didn't find any of it particularly calm or logical. Do you disagree?

[Wisdom]

I didn't feel there were any signs of panic. Your vote on him came out of nowhere and he just couldn't understand it. It didn't help that you weren't explaining. You even went to the extent of saying "I don't have to explain my thought process to you because you're scum" which is as tunnely as it gets and doesn't leave much space to the other player.

I felt that you were more jumpy and loud, driven by the fact you felt uctriton was trying to turn it around and paint you in a negative light, while uctriton was like "dude, everything you're saying makes no sense. you're digging your own hole." while showing why that is.

[Shinobi]

Fair enough, I suppose.

[Josh_B]

PoE? So you have found the whole scumteam and you are so sure about everyone of them that it makes Peabody town?
How is he not suspicious? Even if you disregard his deadline behavior that is scummy as all hell, look at the total of his game: I only see robotic posts and no contribution. Do you see different? Do you see anything in his posts that might indicate he is town? Surely there must be something, if your gut says he is town.

OMG, I said I'd reconsider that read. What more do you expect? How do you expect to resolve this without Peabody being present?

Why? Can't scum force people to explain their cases on them?
I need to reread the 1v1 because I don't remember much of it, but I do believe Shinobi was the one trying to sort out uctriton while uctriton stood there tunneling and ignoring everything Shinobi was saying.

Scum can do whatever they want. Uctriton though is probably town. How many Ad Populum statements are you going to make?

OMGUS means: Oh my god, you suck (for voting me). It's used when x votes y for the sole reason that y voted x. It does not apply to townreads.
Uctriton might be scum seeing your wagon having potential so he decided to join it. Why not consider this possibility?
And he didn't even say anywhere that he voted you for calling him town, that's your own reasoning.

Maybe, maybe not. Explain it to Dionysus.

And seriously what is with "he says he is town so he's town"?

I said that I believe him.

I have to guess things. It won't be the first time that I've guessed wrong. But you tunneling this shit doesnt mean I'm right or wrong, it just puts me into a postion to either second guess myself, or to say I'm absolutely right and your are an idiot.
Fortunately, I know that you are not an idiot. Scum probably, but not an idiot.

I also know that our conversation has become redundant. I've guessed as much as I can guess, and explained as much of my guess's as I can. If I haven't answered your questions by now, I can't. I've reached the limits of my imagination as far as this game goes. If you like that, great, lets move on, if you don't that's on you.

Nothing has happened gamestate wise that caused me to change my mind. I'm not going to change my opinion just because you want me to without seeing further evidence. But for now, regardless of Hephaestus, Uctriton, and Peabody, I'm pretty sure that my vote is on scum, and I'm going with it.