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Post Post #1125 (ISO) » Mon Oct 13, 2014 2:05 am

Post by Glork »

Eh. 4 mana to maybe replace himself on the next turn and hopefully get ahead a turn or two after that? You're honestly better off paying the 2 mana and 2 life for the guaranteed thing. It's not as though Handlock is hurting for card advantage.
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Post Post #1126 (ISO) » Mon Oct 13, 2014 3:47 am

Post by xRECKONERx »

In post 1124, Oman wrote:
In post 1122, xRECKONERx wrote:he was during beta but then he got nerfed to his current unplayable state

Playable in very specific decks.

I'm surprised he's not a bigger hit in handlock and equivalents.

I don't think there's a single deck right now that that should be playing Nat Pagle. Like, not one... I really tried to think of a archetype or deck that could use him, but there are just better options every single time.
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Post Post #1127 (ISO) » Mon Oct 13, 2014 3:51 am

Post by xRECKONERx »

In post 1123, chamber wrote:
In post 1120, xRECKONERx wrote:I'm climbing the ladder with the new aggro mage deck and I'm at a100% winrate up to level 14 right now...


Whats the list?

I'm at work so I'm going from memory right now... I based it off of Sjow's recent laddering deck with a few tweaks, but here's the basic frame (I know that I put in Feugen/Stalagg somewhere):

Dudes

2x Mana Wyrm
2x Undertaker
2x Loot Hoarder
2x Harvest Golem
2x Sludge Belcher
1x Loatheb
1x Sylvanas
1x Ragnaros

Secrets and Such

2x Mad Scientist
2x Counterspell
1x Duplicate
2x Mirror Entity
2x Kirin Tor Mage

Spells

2x Frostbolt
2x Fireball
1x Polymorph
1x Flamestrike
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Post Post #1128 (ISO) » Mon Oct 13, 2014 9:14 am

Post by AngryPidgeon »

I fought Kripp last night in arena. I should have taken a screenshot, but I forgot. I didn't even notice who I was playing against until the 2nd to last turn or so and then I signed on to his stream right after to verify it was him. I knocked him out of his arena run, hehehe. He was playing prkiest and I played pally. When I signed onto his stream he was QQign about Truesilverchampions and was probably QQing about my double Follow ze Rules and Humility drop.
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Post Post #1129 (ISO) » Mon Oct 13, 2014 9:17 am

Post by AngryPidgeon »

Oh also he put down a Deathlord as a last ditch effort in the end game. I one-shotted it with my BoK'd Venture Co Mercenary and it summoned a Sludge Belcher for me. I said "Well Met!" when my Belcher came out. Was lolz.
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Post Post #1130 (ISO) » Mon Oct 13, 2014 9:59 am

Post by xRECKONERx »

lol
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Post Post #1131 (ISO) » Mon Oct 13, 2014 12:35 pm

Post by implosion »

Hilariously relevant.
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Post Post #1132 (ISO) » Mon Oct 13, 2014 1:24 pm

Post by AngryPidgeon »

^ I've seen that. I noticed his name right after the Deathlord play and I was like "wait, this can't possibly be him...", but I looked on twitch and sure enough it was him.
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Post Post #1133 (ISO) » Mon Oct 13, 2014 3:06 pm

Post by pickemgenius »

man I thought it was you who did that last night.

pretty sick yo.
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Post Post #1134 (ISO) » Tue Oct 14, 2014 5:43 am

Post by AngryPidgeon »

AP's Arena Guide


I have 671 wins in arena. I play more arena than normal play. I can float arena runs for literally an entire day of play by earning enough to requeue again over and over. I'm writing this to try and get my thoughts out.

Why should I play arena?

Because its the best way to farm cards if you know what you are doing. It doesn't require a budget to do well in - everyone is on the same footing. Also...its fun! You get to improvise on the fly and come up with new strategies as you play.

Ok, thats great! Now what do I need to draft to go 12-0?

First things first: arena is a grab bag. While there are good heuristics to live by and some science to apply, there will be a fair amount of luck in arena. Some drafts will be bad and there is nothing that can stop that. Sometimes you will get a good draft and get curbstomped by Ragnaros or a Mind Control Tech. When something goes wrong, take the time to consider the source. Was it just a bad draft? Was your deck's mana curve off? Did you play into one of your opponent's removals? Most importantly ,don't get discouraged. Take your time when making plays. Consider all the options - sometimes the correct play or draft is not the obvious one.

I spent my
150 coins
$1.99 and I'm faced with my first choice!; What hero do I pick?

There are a few running theories on this. Trump will tell you that no class in particular is the best, barring potentially hunter. I believe it was Kripp who recently endorsed warlock in part due to the value you can get off of Voidcallers. I know Trump also demonstrated this in that linked video.

I am of the opinion that hunter is the best bet for arena. Its certainly not the end-all pick.

Best Picks:
Hunter, Mage

Solid Picks:
Warlock, Paladin

Ok Picks:
Shaman, Priest+, Druid

Avoid:
Warrior, Rogue


I marked priest with a + because I think it should fall a little above the rest of the Ok picks. I would probably take it over Shaman or druid.

What do I draft?

First we need to discuss strategy. Certain combos and builds are unlikely to impossible to get in arena, so it demands a certain style of play coming into it. Arena is all about board control. Trump likes to talk about value in arena and has said its really a display of who gets the most value out of their cards, and that rush decks are impossible to build reliably. I only partially agree with this. Rush decks certainly are possible in arena, especially since 2-drops are generally solid picks regardless. Hunters and Warlocks can get away with rush strategies due to the natures of their hero powers. Warlocks continuously draw even if out of cards and Hunters can often eek a win out against opponents even after you've thrown all your cards away on early damage and control.

In general, you want a curve of roughly:
8-10 turn 1-2 drops.
5-6 turn 3 drops.
4-5 turn 4 drops.
3-4 turn 5 drops.

The rest should be spread above that. This is VERY rough. Depending on your class and picks, you can build around this.

Ok tell me already, what picks are strong?

I'll go over cards that are strong picks regardless of your Hero or any other drafts.

Cost 1: Zombie Chow, Abusive Sergeant, Argent Squire, Worgen Infiltrator. These are by far the best turn 1 picks. All of these have some form of permanence that prevents them from getting removed by Mage hero powers immediately and they can offer some favorable trades into higher cost cards. The only exception is abusive sergeant which is NOT to be played on turn 1. It is to be played when it allows you to trade an existing minion up. Honorable mention to Elven Archer which I think is undervalued by a lot of good players. Note that you should never play this except to finish killing something off (never play it on an empty board).

Beware, Undertaker is really not that great in arena. You will not reliably get enough deathrattles to make it reliable; draft it at your own risk or if you already have a huge stack of deathrattles. Young priestess is also a moderately trap pick as is anything with 1 HP that you can drop on turn 1.

Cost 2: Swamp Ooze, Knife Juggler, Mad Bomber, Haunted Creeper. 2 drops should be your bread and butter picks for the most part. You want more 2 drops than any other cost in your deck. In general, any card that is 2/3 or 3/2 is passably good in this group. Honorable mention goes out to bloodsail raider if you have a hero with weapons or Mad Scientist if you have secrets. I know I have heard some pros advise against the scientist, but I recommend it for the most part. The only time I would not take one is if there is a significant lack of secrets in my deck at the halfway point of drafting.

Avoid Ancient Watcher, Kobold Geomancer, Master Swordsmith, Nerubian Egg (unless you have several ways of activating it already).

Cost 3: Harvest Golem, Shattered Sun Cleric, Scarlet Crusader, Shade of Naxxramas. After 2 drops, these should be the majority of your deck. Ideally, you want to have control of the board from the get-go and turn 3 is a really pivotal turn. After turn 3 is when really big/sturdy minions will come flying out. It is important to play cards at this stage that will assure you have control of the board come turn 4. Harvest Golem is part of the holy trinity of arena draft picks, next to Boulderfist Ogre and Chillwind Yeti. Special shoutouts to Arcane Golem and Wolfrider in this tier. They can be very useful removal in a pinch and work well in rush decks. Be careful not to drop Arcane Golem unless you really need to or it is turn 7+ already.

Questing adventurer is an OK pick, but not fantastic. More often than not, it will draw removal. Mind Control Tech is a fairly good pick and can single handedly swing games in your favor if it gets a lucky steal. Acolyte of Pain gets an honorable mention, but is often not a strong drop on turn 3 depending on the game state. Use it only if your opponent has no clear way to one-shot it on the board.

Cost 4: Chillwind Yeti, Dark Iron Dwarf, Senjin Shield Masta, Spellbreaker. Not too much to say about this tier. I would generally avoid picking Dragonling Mechanic or Mogushan Warden since all the other 4-drops are very good. Dread corsair is bad too unless you have multiple weapons. Avoid ancient mage too. Gross.

Cost 5: Generally you want big stats at this stage. I personally think Venture Co Mercenary may be the singular best card in arena since it can immediately put a timer on how quickly you can get to lethal damage if your opponent does nothing to slow it down. It will either draw hard removal, eat through some taunters favorably, or deal lots of damage to your opponents face. The drawback of it is really not that bad given the tempo swing it provides you at the point in the game where you really want to capitalize on board advantage. Goblin Auctuioneer is really not that great unless you are running paladin or rogue (dont run rogue).

-----

What does each class bring to the table?


Hunter: Hunters are in a unique position in arena. Steady shot provides a reliable way to close out games. More than any other class, Hunters can send damage to the face over the course of the game and worry less about maintaining permanent board control. I have won several games with Explosive Trap and Steady Shot finishes while my opponent has out multiple scary monsters. All the hunter weapons are very strong picks. Animal Companion and Savannah Highmane are the 2 best cards for Hunters. The overall strategy for hunters should be to establish a strong early presence and finish the game quickly. Freezing and Explosive traps are good picks, ESPECIALLY if you have Mad Scientists. I tend to dislike deadly shot purely because of the randomness. Unleash the hounds is a fairly strong pick as well, and combos great with Cult Master.

Priests are the most difficult matchup for hunters. Try to retain board control and make favorable trades longer against priests as they can use their hero power to win in the long run if you burn out too quickly by aiming for the face. Similarly, avoid setting up too heavily against mages and paladins. Their options for board clearing are very strong.


Mages: This is probably the easiest class to pick up if you are just learning the arena meta. Frostbolts, Flamestrikes, and Fireballs are all strong picks. These make for strong removal as well as strong finishes. Water Elemental is the other core pick. It is the one card that can give Chillwind Yeti a run for its money as a strong turn 4 drop based on stats alone. Mages are all about control. Fireblast makes trades really favorable and you can often go card for card at an advantage with other players. Try to maintain a card advantage at all times. If you can pick something off with your hero power, that is often the best course of action unless there is a really big threat that needs to be addressed. Frost Nova, Ice Block, and the low cost spells are generally not very strong picks here. They are usually too situational to be worth it all the time.

Paladin: Paladins are a very strong pick in arena. Truesilver Champion is the single best pick for Paladins. The removal will clear your opponents board reliably on turn 4/5 and provides bonus value in the form of healing. Consecration is another obvious strong pick for board control. The only seriously shaky picks for pally are Eye for an Eye, Holy Light and Repentance. Blessing of Wisdom has a fair amount of value in arena. It is soft-removal for your opponents minions as it forces them to let you draw cards or not attack. Don't play it when your opponent can simply trade their monster away for reasonable value. You want to draw a couple cards with it if possible. The lack of reliable removal makes it fairly worth it for one mana. Humility and Follow ze Rules are amazing picks (although I don't know if I'd go more than 1 humility). The Peacekeeper, however, is so good I'd pick it over almost anything. The soft-removal from these spells is insanely valuable. Humility makes a VERY strong play into boulderfist ogre or war golem. Its also the one thing that makes Venture Co Mercenary a little risky of a play. I also love Argent Protector in this group since it can allow you to make a favorable trade and keep a minion alive in the process.

You can get away with having a little bit less 2 drops in your deck because your hero power supplements that a bit. If you have a choice between playing a turn 2 card from your hand, and simply using your hero power, consider only using the power. There will be some cases where you need the bigger play to get board dominance, but many times it is advisable to just take the free 1/1 and save your hand for later. I tend to like buffs in paladin arena since you have an endless supply of 1/1s to make trades with. Pallys have class cards they can use for this but Abusive Sergeant, Dark Iron Dwarf, and Defender of Argus are even better picks as Pally. As pally, you are playing the value game. Paladin has plenty of ways to remove minions (even though some of them are soft ways to do it). Try to keep one good sweeper out at all times and focus on clearing your opponents board. Be careful not to overextend where Mind control Techs, Flamestrikes, and Lightning Storms take out everything you have.

Warlocks: Warlocks primarily offer a lot of decent removal in Soulfire and Mortal Coil and some value plays with Infernal and Voidcaller. If you can manage to draft multiple Voidcallers and other demons, then Voidcaller becomes an extremely strong play. Getting an infernal out with it on turn 5 demands immediate removal as it can easily sweep the game. Avoid corruption, Sacrificial Pact, and anything that makes you lose resources that doesn't have 'Soulfire' in its name. The primary strength of warlocks is their hero power which lets them make aggressive early plays and not worry about overextending quite as much as other classes. Bring some healing with you. Earthen Ring Farseer and Molten Giants are honorable mention for warlock drafts.

Hunters are the worst matchup for warlocks. Be very careful not to get to the point where they can burst you down early and then slowly steady shot you to death. Play defensive against them early if you since they are being aggro.

Priests: Dark cultist. Priests don't offer reliably good burst damage, so you want to work to maintain card advantage over the entire game. I find that liberal use of your hero power when it can save a minion or force your opponent to play an additional card is huge. More often than not, you will want to avoid going directly for the face and instead chip away at your opponents board, using your heal to keep minions alive. The goal is to play the long game, running your opponent out of cards, or finally creeping board dominance until they have no answer for your field. High HP minions have more value in priest than anywhere else (hello 2/7 Turtle, Im looking at you). Priest is fairly strong with the Dark cultist and Lightspawn options. Dark cultist is the only card in the game that can give Golem a run for its money in value as a 3 drop. Lightspawn is a solid card for similar reasons, although not quite as strong as cultist. Temple Enforcer is insanely useful and is a better 6 drop than boulderfist ogre, most of the time. Try to avoid gimmicky picks like Inner Fire and Divine Spirit which will more often than not, make you wish you drafted something actually playable. Also don't draft Shadow Form unless you are Kripp or you want to lose.

----

General Tips

Take your time. Fully think out all options.
Pick cards that are standalone good, combos are hard.
Don't overextend. Any class with AoE removal is going to draft it over anything else, 10 times out of 10. If you already have board advantage, you don't need to risk losing card advantage by throwing more cards down.
Always stop and ask yourself if you have lethal damage on your opponent or if you can put them within lethal range by the end of your turn. Around turn 5 or 6, you need to start asking yourself this every turn. Also ask yourself if you can get there by sacrificing board control. Sometimes you have to switch from controlling to throwing the kitchen sink at your opponents face if you are starting to lose advantage.
When in doubt, draft that 2/3 or 3/2 minion that costs 2 mana. ESPECIALLY if it has "Mad" or "Bomber" in its name.
Pray to the RNGesus.
Never play a minion that your opponent can 1-shot with a hero power onto an empty board. If you are playing Young Priestess T1 into a druid/mage/rogue, you fully deserve the loss that is coming to you.
Don't play rogue.
Draft all the Animal Companions that blizzard will let you carry. 4/4 taunters on turn 3 are basically a free win.
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Post Post #1135 (ISO) » Tue Oct 14, 2014 9:20 am

Post by xRECKONERx »

omg ap that is so much fuggin text
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Post Post #1136 (ISO) » Tue Oct 14, 2014 11:10 am

Post by Siveure DtTrikyp »

How to play priest in arena.

Get board control
Keep board control
Win.
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Post Post #1137 (ISO) » Tue Oct 14, 2014 9:16 pm

Post by implosion »

@AP:

The thing in that that I'm going to choose to disagree with and feel like discussing/i'm procrastinating/taking a break from math homework is the tip to not pick rogue. First of all simply anecdotally, my first 11-win run was with a rogue (and I think I've gotten a 12-win run too). Second, rogue has plenty of good tools in arena:

-deadly poison is a 2-for-1. Almost always. Or it's a cheap push for lethal.
-assassinate is like a better polymorph, because you typically want to ping the sheep, which makes it cost 6 mana. Granted it activates deathrattles. Regardless, rogue has a solid common form of hard removal that they can thus frequently draft, which is a huuuuge plus.
-assassin's blade is solid.
-eviscerate is one of the best and most flexible removal spells in the game.
-backstab can 1-for-1 so that you don't lose card advantage, and literally can automatically win you the tempo race on turn 2-3 without your opponent being able to do a damn thing.
-coin + defias can win games on its own. Granted, that won't win you every game. However, it will be a huge part of some games, and others, defias typically isn't a bad card even if you can't coin it out turn 1.
And those are all commons. The big downside here is a lack of a good AoE clear; this is a downside shared by other classes. Warrior has pretty much nothing of note other than whirlwind which is nominal. Shaman only has lightning storm which is absolutely fantastic, but rare, so you aren't guaranteed to get it. Warlock has hellfire but it's super situational. They also have shadowflame but it's situational and rare. Rogue also has some not-that-good AoE removal, in fan of knives and blade flurry.

Third, their hero power is fantastic. It's mage's hero power with a moderate downside and a moderate upside.
The downside is that you take face damage (and can't attack through taunts, but that isn't too big of a deal usually, it can be sometimes but it's not super important imo). Face damage is bad but it's not very meaningful early game in an arena game. If you're low on health from hitting minions then you have probably hit enough minions to gain significant advantage.
The upside is that you get two of them... for the cost of one. That's pretty damn good.

I'm curious as to what you have so strongly against rogue, I've had several drafts as rogue go very well, and I haven't done worse with it than other classes overall in my experience.
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Post Post #1138 (ISO) » Tue Oct 14, 2014 9:19 pm

Post by implosion »

Also forgot to mention SI:7. One of the best rares in the game for arena. If your opponent 2-drops a 3/2, then a turn 2 coin SI:7 is an absolutely ENORMOUS tempo swing, PLUS it's a free 1 for 0 trade because a 3/3 body for 3 is playable on its own.
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Post Post #1139 (ISO) » Tue Oct 14, 2014 9:20 pm

Post by chamber »

rogues hero power being shit is probably the biggest downside, it's waaaay weaker than mages, possibly the weakest hero power in arena imo (warriors is also poop).
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Post Post #1140 (ISO) » Tue Oct 14, 2014 10:05 pm

Post by pickemgenius »

wtf doesn't hunter suck shit now in arena???????

and naturally rankings are presuming you have equal knowledge of all the classes.
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Post Post #1141 (ISO) » Wed Oct 15, 2014 12:02 am

Post by AngryPidgeon »

The main issue with the rogue hero power is the face damage. Against mages and hunters, you have to constantly worry that they are going to just throw everything at your face and win by turn 8. SI:7 is a good card, but its rare so you won't be getting more than 2 on a GOOD draft.

The only common that gets great value is Defias Ringleader, and the 2/1 off of that is Fireblast/Shapeshift/SilverhandRecruit bait. It requires a combo and there are already a plethora of good neutral 2-drops though. I think the Anubar Ambusher is potentially extremely underrated. I dont think Ive ever seen one played in arena which is funny because its probably passably good here.
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Post Post #1142 (ISO) » Wed Oct 15, 2014 12:08 am

Post by chamber »

Really? I take that card fairly high when I choose to play rogue.
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Post Post #1143 (ISO) » Wed Oct 15, 2014 12:41 am

Post by Siveure DtTrikyp »

Pidgeon, if they play no turn 1, then you defias and your opponent hero powers to kill the 2/1. It'll be going into your turn 2 and the board state is no enemy minions versus a 2/2 for you...

THATS GOOD.

Like, seriously, hero power before turn 4-5 needs quite a bit of value to make up for it being slow as hell.

The issue with rogue is that come turn 7-8 they're generally doomed. If it goes into a big long brawlfest (which arena tends to do ime), rogue hero power giving them face damage suuuuucks. Them having no good 6mana+ cards also sucks.

The thing with anubar ambusher is it's slow as hell, so if you have a tempo advantage you dont want to play the ambusher turn 4.
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Post Post #1144 (ISO) » Wed Oct 15, 2014 12:54 am

Post by chamber »

In post 1143, Siveure DtTrikyp wrote:The thing with anubar ambusher is it's slow as hell, so if you have a tempo advantage you dont want to play the ambusher turn 4.


If you have a tempo advantage and play it, whats the worst that can happen? They waste a hard removal spell on your 4 drop and bounce a 3 drop? And that's pretty rare. More likely you can trade off your lower drops and abuse the fact that your 4 mana 5/5 eats every other 4 drop.
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Post Post #1145 (ISO) » Wed Oct 15, 2014 7:35 am

Post by implosion »

In post 1143, Siveure DtTrikyp wrote:Pidgeon, if they play no turn 1, then you defias and your opponent hero powers to kill the 2/1. It'll be going into your turn 2 and the board state is no enemy minions versus a 2/2 for you...

THATS GOOD.

Like, seriously, hero power before turn 4-5 needs quite a bit of value to make up for it being slow as hell.

The issue with rogue is that come turn 7-8 they're generally doomed. If it goes into a big long brawlfest (which arena tends to do ime), rogue hero power giving them face damage suuuuucks. Them having no good 6mana+ cards also sucks.

The thing with anubar ambusher is it's slow as hell, so if you have a tempo advantage you dont want to play the ambusher turn 4.

I think this is a more common complaint that I've heard about rogue, at least in common tier lists and the like. The typical theory that you hear about arena from those sources is something along the lines of board control is king in arena. It's incredibly difficult to draft an arena deck that can consistently win if it loses board and doesn't have a massive advantage in life, and the amount of face damage you take as a rogue typically isn't enough to make the game unwinnable if you get board from it.

The whole running out of steam thing has lost games, but I've also had plenty of arena games that have been won by essentially converting an early game tempo advantage into a sprint, after which i have enough resources to answer anything.
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Post Post #1146 (ISO) » Wed Oct 15, 2014 8:11 am

Post by Glork »

The few times I've played Rogue in arena, I've found that a lone copy of Sprint seems to work wonders when you get to that "doomed" state. But yeah, I generally avoid Rogue like the plague.
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Post Post #1147 (ISO) » Wed Oct 15, 2014 12:48 pm

Post by implosion »

I drafted a hunter deck that I find amusing (I have both of the 60 gold quests for hunter as well, which is nice). It's got a lot of things that are oddly constructed... 2 eaglehorn bows, 2 mad scientists, and some secrets (2 explosive and a snipe, which granted isn't that similar to constructed). And they said I couldn't draft something synergistic.
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Post Post #1148 (ISO) » Wed Oct 15, 2014 1:14 pm

Post by AngryPidgeon »

Spoiler: Wish me luck > <
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Post Post #1149 (ISO) » Wed Oct 15, 2014 7:28 pm

Post by implosion »

In post 1147, implosion wrote:I drafted a hunter deck that I find amusing (I have both of the 60 gold quests for hunter as well, which is nice). It's got a lot of things that are oddly constructed... 2 eaglehorn bows, 2 mad scientists, and some secrets (2 explosive and a snipe, which granted isn't that similar to constructed). And they said I couldn't draft something synergistic.

aaaand 5-0 so far. 120 gold. happiness.

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