Open 566: Murder on the Oriental Express (Game Over)

[scrambles]

Point 3
Again, vla and laziness. I got the distinct feeling that chaos was being mi slynched, and pushed hard to counter beli. Chaos had made some very real scummy statements, but imo nuthing anyone could be accused of in a game of mafia. Beli felt roght, and chaos felt lile the counterwagon. Therin i trusted that chaos was town, so i tried to get him to vote my way (the way i thought was Right.) I understood that if chaos were town, then he would be valuable in listening to a case without me having to worry about ulterior motives. Given my lack of time to play, chaos simply felt like the most "economical" use of my time.

[scrambles]

Point 4
my feels are more than just feels. I actually trust my feel more than evidence. I cant say you are wrong that my reasoning devolved, but to me they increased. "I dont know what's going on" is just a lead. How he feels is what I move on. im pretty sure that there was counterwagon activity and im pretty sure i pushed for beli over it.

[scrambles]

Point 5
You'll find that unless im really on the fence about a player, I will (even with time) never interact with someone I think is scum. I have no reason to talk to scum or give them a reason to try and argue a point. Townies can read my points and decide for themselves. its just like titus here when i said "what point needs to be made that isnt clear as day". Town shoild be able to read and see whats going on for themselves. Like why should I interact with titus to give him another chance to baseless call me a liar. It does more damage to my case to engage him.again, you want proof, just look at my vgc games.
The only time ill engage a scum is when they dont yet realize im scumreading them. And it'll usually be a gambit to see who their teammates are.

[scrambles]

What's even the case about me lying about my experience?
I was intentionally pretending to be a noob so that people wouldnt be able to read me? I mean, that's fair.
But, I had an ongoing game in which I specifically said I was experienced on another site. What kind of strategy is that to say I'm a noob when I could easily be proven wrong by a simple site lookup?
The fact is, that "my second game" evidence is just a clear misread. (a post which wasn't even brought up by the accuser, who couldn't even post any actual contradiction, as I pointed out)
On top of which, if I had decided to play the noob card and simply been oblivious to the fact that I could be proven wrong, why would I show everyone my hand in order to push a scum lynch? Did I forget that I was pretending to be a noob? The entire case is nonsensical, and like I said, it's spin and buzzwords to try and push a "defendable" mislynch.
Who is going to blame titus? Clearly, scrambles had lied and he's a poor player and a threat to town regardless of alignment. Town is better off without him. amirite?

[scrambles]

Feel free to point me to any player in this game who has posted as many naked town-reads as she has.

A sample size of 'in this game' means nothing; you're saying that no town player goes around playing like that. If true, that would be a universal thing, and I'm saying that I see loads of players on this site with similar approaches - including Titus.

I typically find it scummy when it continues when asking for reason's and i get smart ass remarks. Like from Scrambles.

I do have one thing that is bugging me in the discussion from Acryon about Titus.

Acyron: Why did Nakedjoger's votes with no reasoning and nothing added to the game never come up while he was around as scummy?

Sorry, Amy, I think you've misunderstood what I was asking for. You mentioned that you have a history of responding a certain way as scum ("I actually try to play for my wincon in these situations rather than getting mad a town") and I'd like for you to point me to some examples of your history that back up that statement.

I have no history to back that up. I kind of just... said those things as I thought of them, without any backing or anything. Just please disregard all that, it's mostly rageposting.

Wow. Most of my townreads in this game haven't bern naked at all.

Y'all should realize acryonis very defensive for a guy with zero votes.

meh that is null tell.


Stopped on page 50.

Almost caught up!

If you don't want smart ass remarks, don't ask stupid questions.

[scrambles]

Got some time, reading from…christ page 46,,posting as I go…if it turns into a wall of words I will break it up.

Such as, ie. I mentioned only a few examples to avoid the post becoming wall-like. The quotes you cherry-picked illustrate the same point. They're very much surface-reads and contrast with the reads you've given out on other people.

surface reads? spending a fucking hour or so reading someone's meta is a service read? But that is besides the point. if you felt like these were good examples of service reads, why did you not post them?

Riddleton?

- - -
Page 47 scrambles is coming off really..odd? Not sure why he is dodging “previous experience” questions.

- - -

Hm. Pretty confident on two of (scrambles, acryon, CKD) as the final scummies. I think this day has revealed a lot.

I agree, but certainly not what you think it has. I think that at-most 1 of those three are scum, and even then both of them are very low on my list.

wait, you are one of those 3?...this was a weird way to address this post.

acryon spent the first couple of days straddling the fence

hard

.

wasn’t acryon one of the 1st two votes on Bel Day2?

I've already posted it

fuck just post it again, why answer/avoid a question this way?

- - -

Page 50, still not liking scrambles, he is avoiding questions and when people call him on these actions, his defense..is…just strange? It doesn’t feel like he is scum hunting, or maybe it is more like I don’t feel like he is helping people scum hunt. People are asking him questions and instead of directly answering those questions, he comes back with other questions. Why not just answer said questions and then inquire about other people you think are scummy? Ask them questions. Put out a case, see who doesn’t agree with you or who does. Why do they agree with your, why not? You are not really doing any of these things. Why are you not trying to find scum?

THE POINT BEING: all of that could have been resolved if you simply made explicit that your experience offsite is more than the single game you completed on Tuesday of last week (or whenever). Instead, you argued for arguments sake, making a whole bunch of not very helpful discussion crop up.

GC says it better.

- - -

I also would join a Farside wagon too (sorry dear, people who say you and CD are scum keep dying)

WIFOM is my friend.

Sorry but if you read my meta you know I tend to target those that are town reads first and then worry about those that see me scum second.

Challenge expected (if I have time). Actually if I go back and find a scum game, where you did take out or let other’s take out town that were suspicious of you or your team partners, what are you going to say?

@CKD: Something I'd like to know when you are back.
Early on, one of your big issues with Skelda was how he kept calling people town without reasoning. Do you think this is dissimilar to what Titus has done, and if so why? If you think it is similar, what do you think of it this time around?

I have not notice Titus doing that (but that doesnt mean he hasnt). Skelda rubbed me wrong, because he was doing it without being asked for his leads AND it was really based on nothing (Day 1). It didnt set right with me. Now I was wrong about him, but if I were to do it all over again, it still would have pinged my scumdar. Now we are in Day 3...there is a lot more info to go on. What post(s) are you talking about specifically?

My gut is leaning cocky town for Titus at this point. But I am curious which posts you are indicating here.

Feel free to point me to any player in this game who has posted as many naked town-reads as she has.

A sample size of 'in this game' means nothing; you're saying that no town player goes around playing like that. If true, that would be a universal thing, and I'm saying that I see loads of players on this site with similar approaches - including Titus.

I typically find it scummy when it continues when asking for reason's and i get smart ass remarks. Like from Scrambles.

You say typically here..what are some examples that you don’t find this kind of behavior scummy?

For wqhat it's worth, I don't like the AtE/flattery associated with such comments like "you're my top town read". It's probably nothing, but it still irks me for whatever reason.

LOL, I am sorry, what was your stance on my Skelda case again?

So I am curious...instead of making this comment, why didnt you inquire WHY X has you as a top town read?

Farside

, is lean-town. Her posts are generally spot-on. I've no problems were her posts in this game. I disagree with GC's assesment that the fact people get NKed because they scum read farside is alignment-indicative. I don't think it is, and just think it's WiFOM.

Generally. okay, which ones ARE spot on? Just curious. You are leaning town on her, I would like to know why (specifically).

- - -
scrambles (and I dont care if you have already done it, just do it again) please post your TOP scum suspect and give me 3 reason WHY you think they are scum.

It wasn't "people asking me questions", it was titus. And just read the exchange again. Titus wrote over and over that I was lying and could NEVER, EVER post the quotes pointing to it. I don't understand how people are reading this like I'm dodging. For GC, sure, but like I said, my responses are only going to be me saying "it's not true" in so many words. As you can see from my responses above (page 54-55, is there anything conclusive I've said to change anyone's mind? No. Because that kind of analysis is hard to argue. It's hard to argue "what would someone do as scum". I don't mean to offend GC when I said it's mostly wifom, but I mean, point proven, no? "Scrambles was probably doing this because he's scum and wanted to do X". My response, "no, I did Y because of Z".

EX: You're probably agreeing because you're scum, and I'm the best case at the moment for lying, so momentum is on your side to simply agree with something that's been said.

[scrambles]

I've already posted it

Oh, and this post was directed at the one directly above it, wherein CDB asked for my scumreads and said "seem's like you have a lot".
Yet if someone was actually scumhunting me, shouldn't they know that I only have two? What kind of scumhunting is that, to point out such a meta-tell that isn't even based in fact. It's not. It's simply moving with momentum. It's fake.

[scrambles]

@acryon
ckd, ape, titus

Why are those players your scum read and why no vote?

And while I didnt think chaos was scum, delibird is reversing that.

Why?

I have massive arguments with players all the time. On my other site, im kinda known for it, and a lot of people call it detrimental.
however, normally in an argument like this I would say amy is town. Scum just dont argue this much or with such fervor.

I'm going to disagree. Anyone can fake arguments long enough to be previewed town.
More women I know are better at it then men.

Ckd- just the things he says. I dunno how else to put it. Comments that he makes come off as sensible and logical but easily defendable. He seems to agree with a lot of the things I say, and at other times he goes directly against them and tries to massage my opinions.He comes off as manipulative. There was also something he said earlier regarding my vote on Beli. IIRC he was saying that we should lynch other people because we would be able to get something from their flips but that Beli's flip wouldn't give us any new info. Beli was conf scum imo. There was no reason to look for someone to lynch based on associative flips. Like I said, it comes off as sensible, but manipulative.

Ape- because of his play eary on in the game. Just felt like a lot of non-participation. Though, Green Crayon is looking a lot better. I liked his direction with attacking me, which I felt was a pretty good case (even though it's wrong). It probably took a lot of effort. Most of it is wifom, but I don't see any real scum motivation behind it. He's trying to figure me out, and what my motivations are. He hasn't asked me any direct questions, which I thought was weird, but I could see a town getting fed up with my non-participation and just going through my posts for any crumbs he can find.

Titus- I dunno. Maybe I'm just sore because he's antagonizing me, but I get a bad feeling from how he's approaching me. Saying that I'm lying when I'm not, saying I'm avoiding him. These are typical "buzzwords" for creating lynch opportunities. Who can blame anyone for lynching a liar? It's a meta rule! He's trying to brand me as something that's untrue and that comes off as scum to me.

Have you read CDB in the last day?

@lastcomment
Eh, that's your opinion. Anyone can just say words and argue back but the emotions behind it are different. I don't understand how people can't see it. Maybe I'm just more empathic, but I can tell the difference between scum flailing and town being fed up.

Well, my reads have changed since this page.
GC does actually come off as town based on how he handled the argument with me.

My current top reads are Titus, riddleton, and cdb.
Titus for his use of buzzwords on me and being unable to evidence his accusations when confronted with it.

Riddleton, because I feel like he's been the puppetmaster the past few days where he makes short posts nuancing momentum. I get the feeling he's trying to subtly push something and not be in the spotlight while doing so, which comes off as scummy. However, I'm not keen on pushing riddleton at the moment. I'll come back to this at some point. (If I live, that is)

I have recently moved cdb to null, but I think he's probably scum. I don't really agree with anything he says, and a lot of his posts feel vacant nad misleading. If youd' like I could provide examples, but I've already spent a good deal of my work time (2 hours) writing responses now.

[scrambles]

also

vote: titus

[scrambles]

also, caught up now.
Current reads:
Town:
GC (somewhat)
AFF
Toby
Farside
Acryon

unsure:
ckd

Scum:
Cdb
riddleton
Titus

[acryon]

Now hopefully we can get people a little more active here and have a discussion with what little time we have left.

[scrambles]

Well I dont know how much time is left, but at least I've put my reads out there. I don't expect my accusers to be showing up again. (except GC)

[acryon]

Well we currently have 1 day and 7 hours, but we also still don't have a TobyLoby replacement, so we may have more.

[Amy Farrah Fowler]

I have a leaning scumread on both acryon and scrambles, I had to pick one of them for my two main scumreads, I picked acryon. I see how they're compatible.

Maybe there's some miscommunication here. So I'm following up, because I still don't understand -- I'm not trying to pull a "gotcha" or something along those lines.

In 1347, you said you skimmed through scrambles' ISO, and found it to look okay.
In 1348, you said you read through scrambles' ISO, and came away with a leaning-scumread.

How did you come away with two different feelings -- "okay" and "leaning-scumread" -- from the same player's (scrambles') ISO?

Bad wording on my part. I know that probably sounds cheap, but that's all. I guess... okay didn't mean okay-okay in this case. I really don't know how to put it.
Okay meant I skimmed through Scrambles' ISO, read about three posts and went for acryon with no aversion to lynching Scrambles or acryon.

[Amy Farrah Fowler]

Well we currently have 1 day and 7 hours, but we also still don't have a TobyLoby replacement, so we may have more.

Whoah, this went pretty fast...

[Green Crayons]

@Amy:

discrepancies aren't inherently scummy, and I didn't see a clear way how this particular one might be. I just wanted to be clear about your position.

[Amy Farrah Fowler]

@Amy:

discrepancies aren't inherently scummy, and I didn't see a clear way how this particular one might be. I just wanted to be clear about your position.

Yeah, understandable. Looking back I see why you picked up on it.

[Green Crayons]

Blergh. My immediate take away is that, overall, I like scrambles' response.

UNVOTE:

Will contemplate this further.

CDB is still my go-to as a second choice. Based solely off of chaos' play (once again, see Toby's Post 951 and acryon's Post 1287). After an initial scum-leaning read, I think CDB's play has been alignment neutral. The only person I've seen that has given a justification for a CDB town-read is Titus, and that reason made no sense (Post 1264: "CDB scumhunting in his spot was why he isconftown to me.").

[ChannelDelibird]

Gut reaction is that I find scrambles's above interesting and pause-worthy but not exonerating. Will expand later tonight if I get work done promptly or tomorrow if not.

[curiouskarmadog]

hoping to get to this tonight or tomorrow (maybe?).

mod extension status?

[Baezu]

Vote Count 3.07

Titus: (2) acryon, scrambles
ChannelDelibird: (2) Amy Farrah Fowler, Curiouskarmadog
scrambles: (3) Titus, ChannelDelibird, Riddleton

Not Voting: TobyLoby, Farside22, Green Crayons

With 10 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.

Deadline: Suspended until I find a replacement for TobyLoby

Mod Notes:
None

[farside22]

I like scrambles response to the pressure. Still not sure about the inconsistency of acryon.
I still see no difference between NJ and Titus.

Scramble: Why is titus a scum read (sorry if I missed it) and what is your thoughts on Acryon?

[scrambles]

Titus is a scum read because his position on me didnt have evidence behind it and he used buzzwords that weren't true. Avoidance, lying, misleading. I find that people who use words like that, even with basis, are generally scum, because those words to townies are like rays of light in a sea of darkness. Townies latch onto them so easily. After that there's his interest yet non followup on my other site, which makes me think he's trying to look like he's participating. Also I dont like his slot read.

The only thing I see negative about acryon is his unwillingness to listen to my beli case. I previously dismissed it as him simply being suspicious of me, and honestly its just null at the moment. Some of his reads I dont agree with but I'd say at worst, if he had to be something other than town, it would have to be survivor. I just dont see him acting in a scum way. His insistence of hearing cases brought against him in order to be given a chance to respond also comes off as town.

[scrambles]

Oh also im aware their is no survivor, I was just making a point.

[Riddleton]

I dislike Scrambles' responses and "oh my god Riddleton is scum for pushing me" post. He doesn't say it, but it's clear he's referring to me when he says "trying to push something", due to his disagreement with my earlier joke post. It's OMGUS minus the vote, even he implies himself it would look awkward if he pushed me right now. Would still be OK with his lynch.