NY 178: MASQUERADE -- GAME OVER

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Post Post #1625  (ISO)  » Thu Oct 16, 2014 12:01 pm

In post 1622, Scripten wrote:
In post 1620, The Fonz wrote:I don't think Flubbernugget is scum. At least, I'm not getting scum vibes from him. He's working pretty hard on Thor, and not doing a fantastic job of it, true. But his viewpoint feels organic to me, mostly in terms of tone and the way he is pushing and retracting his points. I mean, compare and contrast his play with PereV's, and you can probably see where I'm coming from with my vote.


Expand on 'retracting.' I may be overly suspicious of his entry because it's the kind of thing I think I would do as scum here.

Someone also suggested PV was playing exactly as he did in a recent town game together, but I've subsequently moved on from the page it was on and trawling through this game is kind of headache-inducing for me at the moment. So can whoever it was please also expand on what exact behaviours they are talking about?

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Post Post #1626  (ISO)  » Thu Oct 16, 2014 12:43 pm

I'll catch up and post tonight - skimmed v quickly today.
"i have the sickest grossest feeling that even if it's my lynch today, my townflip still won't lead to a tso lynch, and then he'll find some bullshit way to reason either shooting or lynching gm tomorrow because if there's anyone who can strongarm a mislynch despite his reads or cases being proved wrong time and again it's tso" -Marquis

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Post Post #1627  (ISO)  » Thu Oct 16, 2014 1:44 pm

In post 1624, davesaz wrote:Hey, there are reads! I'll take your offer of explanation, please start with the material you're using to read GrayFoxxx and Izariael.

Gray is Town based on my very long interaction with Csareo.
Izariael I'm really not reading either way, that's the Null pile.
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Post Post #1628  (ISO)  » Thu Oct 16, 2014 1:55 pm

In post 1589, Garmr wrote:
In post 1585, AxleGreaser wrote:
In post 1584, Garmr wrote:But I don't see tso as scum


So you can explain how it is plausible he has his read on Aneninen?

because I also have similar problem with your read on Aneninen, but find TSO scummier, so I started with him.


Bang this just hit me.

I have explained my reasons even through it started with a misunderstanding. What I find wrong is how your attacking the Aneninen, wagon and trying to disassemble it with out once saying Aneninen, is town. Sure you said here are some of annienens town games but not even once in the slightest have you said Aneninen to say what you think his alignment is Hell. When you presented Aneninen, town game to me you didn't even say this is why Aneninen, is town/scum because of this game and that one match up(they don't). Your like here's some Aneninen games I can't be bothered pointing out the points to show why they can be referenced with this game.You been passively defending annienen as well.

I think you did this subconsciously as he is either your scum buddy or your trying to buddy him. Your also reluctant to share your reads other than tso and you been playing a mediator role the whole game when it doesn't involve a scum read like you want to get in on the action yet not get to heavily involved.

come on people read through his iso Aneninen is mentioned over 100 times but not his alinement.

UNVOTE: Aneninen
VOTE: Axlegreaser

Why does this make an axlegreaser vote more palatable to you than an aneninen vote? It seems to me this ought to reinforce your scum read on aneninen the scum bro, should it not?
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Post Post #1629  (ISO)  » Thu Oct 16, 2014 2:27 pm

In post 1620, The Fonz wrote:I don't think it does. I agree that it is initially possible PV-town, based on a belief that '21 players' was in no way a reason to believe multiball likely, then thought 'Well what else could make him assume that? Insider knowledge!' That's derpy, but possible. Thor's case, although he was already voting PV for other reasons, is that Nero was the first person to make an assumption about multiball, and PV was being inconsistent. Note also that the conditionality in PV's post is inconsistent: He doesn't suspect Thor if it's not multiball. This means he's accepting the possibility of Thor being town making a bad assumption, in the non-multiball case. Since town wouldn't have insider knowledge either way, his logic requires him to accept the possibility of Thor being a townie making a bad assumption even if it IS multiball. So it requires a combo of illogic and ignoring things to fit the case you want to make.


This is about as close to the mark as I've seen anyone get.

The bolded is the reason it was a comment among 20 and not a reason to pursue a Thor lynch, nor even something that I would waste more time looking into until it became relevant, if ever.

There was never a case, there was what amounted to squinty eyes at Thor (and most other players for various reasons) but hey, people now have the mountain they want.

Anyone want to discuss details, please refer to this as the startling point.
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Post Post #1630  (ISO)  » Thu Oct 16, 2014 2:28 pm

Ok so cleaning fish tanks took priority over this yesterday, but I have an hour and then maybe some time before work tonight, so here it goes.

Gamr wrote: At the time boon didn't claim a power role.


He claimed to have a role that confirmed multiball. I doubt he was claiming scum and he never implied negative utility. He was softclaiming a power role. And I said you were pushing a "potential" power role anyway so you are kind of missing the point. Even if this is my interpretation of Aneninen's point, not my own. If you think Aneninen was truly chainsawing as you say, get back to me when one of them flips scum. Associatives are flimsy at best on Day 1.

Lol at Nero voting Thor for trolling him (page 43). I'm trying to decide if this is a town tell or not.

The TSO vs Axle arguement is a little boring, but I feel like I should throw in my two cents. Axle asked TSO for Aneninen's posts that absolutely can NOT come from town. TSO gives a quote wall and attacks Axle for focusing on the RVS vote in the quote wall. I actually think Axle is making a good point that TSO is making more of a case than what is actually there, especially when he admits that the RVS post was more "I disagree with" than "town couldn't possibly" because at that point, TSO isn't really doing what was asked of him to make his case. As for my conclusion on the arguement, Axle looks obvtown. TSO, not so much.

script wrote: I can't give you any real specifics. I've never played with neighborhoods before. However, more information for town is usually a good thing. I also can't see the reveal being particularly anti-town, either. Unless scum get their own neighborhood (which seems like it'd be a little game breaking), they'll probably tell their team all about the composition of their individual hoods, anyway. While this may not cover every hood in the game, it would still be more information than town will have.


I actually agree with most of this. However, it doesn't address my question at all. You specifically said that knowing neighborhoods will be more useful LATER. I asked why later as opposed to now?

I don't understand why people are having trouble reading Axle's posts...The only thing that bothers me is that I phone post, so spoiler tags are basically the same as invisible text which isn't allowed for very good reason.

Thor, basically, you asked me in the neighborhood about my experience as a neighbor. I told you that I had a game or two in my past that I barely remember where I was a neighbor and one semi recent one, but I was scum. I continued that thought by saying I don't even know how I should play town neighbor because there isn't much benefit when anything I can say to you in the neighborhood, I can also say in the game thread. Again, I don't see where you are getting "terrible" from this, much less "terrible, must be town". Basically, it doesn't make sense as a genuine read unless I am seriously missing something, but it makes all kinds of sense for you to find an excuse to call me town if you are scum who I am townreading.

Gamr's push on Aneninen is getting so bad.

Oquote="TSO"] If anyone wants to talk about why Aneninen is scum, I'm open to that.[/quote]

Let's talk. Start by summarizing your case. Use only the strongest arguements and show me why this absolutely can not be town.

Nero wrote: I've played in enough games with scum sprinkled in the hoods to auto default think that. hy should I think there are no scum in the hoods this game? + there's 12 hoodies so I think the probability that all 5-6 scum are in those 9 players outside the hoods is near 0%. I am NOT suggesting that we randomly lynch hoodies until we find the hood scum but just letting town know they are there and not to ignore the hoods and letting scum know that I know they are hiding. 


So you think that without you being here to guide us, we'd all make the mistake of assuming neighbors are the same thing as masons or...?

Tier, what is your read on TSO? And how was Script's 1105 an empty post?

Nero wrote: I also dislike fon'z "catchup" post being a bandwagon hop onto PV.


Why so sure that he'd town read someone who nearly half the game is scumreading?

Goodmorning, how would you define "vanity wagon"?

So without the "fucking shitty" etc to make it sound worse, TSO, let me know if I'm understanding your Aneninen case correctly. He called you scum. You said his reasons were bad. He didn't respond. Town would absolutely 100% of the time respond, so he's scum?

Aneninen, can I have your thoughts on the two lines I'm posting before this one?

Dave, do you honestly believe that Tier and myself are tunneling you?

Tier, I disagree with you where you say Aneninen's 418 doesn't at least imply a scum read on TSO.

I'm on Page 50. Will try to keep going before work. After that, I'll be working pretty much 16 hour days through deadline, but I'll check in and help with a deadline lynch if needed.

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Post Post #1631  (ISO)  » Thu Oct 16, 2014 2:52 pm

In post 1562, PeregrineV wrote:
In post 1558, Thor665 wrote:
In post 1555, PeregrineV wrote:1. Your "case" is saying anything I post is scummy. You don't back it up, and apparently don't have to. Go you.
2. And complete lack of counterwagon. This indicates caught scum to you.
3. Not really. Everyone else is town. If you have any scumreads besides me, I've yet to see them. If you've found any associative tells with scum-me, I've yet to see them. You are carefully not calling anyone saying "Pere might not be scum" scummy either.
4. You linked back to your own post, basically convoluted saying that the fact I question you makes me scummy. Go you.
5. I've been pretty frank and forward, all without using Smurf language. You've been tunneling and changing your story and been pretty evasive about pretty much a single sentence I posted.
6. Your "case" is complete and utter garbage, and the fact you voted me for voting Scripten should not be lost after my flip.
7. I had a better case in Ikuraga (viewtopic.php?p=6092463#p6092463) but I recognized it's flaws (viewtopic.php?p=6096029#p6096029) because I was town. Yours has been scummed up and while not direct OMGUS, definitely reeks of it.

1. My case isn't that, and it's funny that you think so because other people seem to understand that and FLubber is calling me scummy for *not* doing that, apparently.
2. Functionally, the only counterwagon that exists is the one trying to be formed on me - yes, that indicates scum to me.
3. I do not use associatives Day 1 prior to a flip. You are correct, I am not calling anyone calling you town scum at this point - how shockingly evil of me. :?:
4. This is a shallow and untrue statement with little relation as a response.
5. I have not changed my story - you have claimed I have and I have repeatedly noted that I have not. Why does no one else believe you if this is happening? This is a lie.
6. I voted you for having an empty vote on Scripten - I am willing to live with whatever consequences that brings upon me.
7. ...what? You're calling my vote an OMGUS of you? While also saying that I voted you for voting Scripten? I honestly do not follow this comment.


1. Players can "agree" with you without reading or understanding your "case". You know lazy town does it as well as scum. You've not questioned anyone about their understanding of your "case" except me, and I've said I don't see it. Flubber giving it actual attention means he's probably seeing the same issues with it.

2. Get real, it's not a counterwagon and you know it.

3. Your certainty that I'm scum- is it a "safe assumption", stronger than that, or weaker than that? :cool:

4. I asked you to explain it like I was 6 (),
Spoiler: Your answer
In post 1226, Thor665 wrote:viewtopic.php?p=6270527#p6270527


5. Sure you did.
Spoiler: Post 1366
In post 1366, PeregrineV wrote:I could continue to argue with you, but I've seen this before. Plus, you've managed to evolve your case/vote from to to whatever this is supposed to be. But, like the Scripten vote, overreaction to speculation is just not a town thing.


6. And haven't really explained why in the context of

7. Read #5 Evolving Cases. Then,
Spoiler: Read this
In post 501, PeregrineV wrote:19. Thor665- early townread, but then downhill (slowly) from there, as he votes opposite my opinion. Kind of used to that, so not a full on scumread for that at this point.
The worst Thor post was calling this game multiball ( and ) for pretty much no reason (because it's 21 players?!?). Should there turn out to be 2 scumteams, I'll probably strongly advocate for a Thor lynch. Until then, I'll go back and forth with and about him trying to figure out if he is town that I just don't get or scum trying to trick me. Always fun. :]

In post 1107, Thor665 wrote:It is inherently unscummy because there is no suggested inside knowledge in the comment and also the comment flowed naturally from the conversation I was having at the time suggesting no strange focus on multiball either - ergo, it was a natural comment to make and also showed no inside knowledge.


In post 1557, PeregrineV wrote:5. If I think I'm right, I say so. If I'm scum and think I'm right, I say so. If I'm wrong, then I probably say so. :wink:

That sounds like lynchable evidence to me ;)

:P


In post 1581, Thor665 wrote:1. I have convinced multiple players and discussed the case at length with them. I can think of at least two that I changed their minds about it, insomuch as they opposed it and then supported it.
2. Okay. So, then, with, in yoour opinion, multiple scum teams, how come I haven't even gotten close to L-1 on you yet if there isn't resistance?
3. This is a deflective jab with no purpose to it dodging how you were scum flailing in your last #3.
4. Okay...and that *is* explained like to a 6 year old. It was step by step. If you don't understand it it's up to *you* to explain where it lost you.
5. Quoting my case from before your multiball call out and then after it is hardly proof of me changing my story, and you know it and it is scummy you're trying to sell it like that.
6. There is no context there to explain.
7. Ah, so now we're complaining that, as I saw new information, I updated my reads? That is different than saying my "story changed". Very different. Like, not even in the same galaxy as a tell.


1. OK, who was not convinced of yuor magic bullet but then became coninced you were right?
2. I will flip town, and a deadline lynch gives the wagon hoppers more leeway, since "can't have no-lynch" will be acceptable at that point.
3. Not at all. You have no focus except on me. The source of that focus is my Scipten Vote, my "Thor could be scum", and your inability to understand why I think you can be scum. Since that is a poor waste of your time (as you will not move your vote off of me), then you can scumhunt others. If you have to include me, then scumhunt based of of either of my flips. If I'm town, then who is scum on my wagon. If I am scum, who is bussing on my wagon.
4. When I read it, I see you saying "How could Pere NOT be scummy, he called me scummy!" I expect that will be oversimplified for you, but there you have it.
Spoiler: 848 & 849
(-)
Have you ever played with Pere prior to this? I feel like you must have.

He is not only doing a slow start (which I might buy as town him) but is pairing it with sloppy reads and not really looking over the thread (note how he agreed that...whoever that was, Muffin?, who had earlier brought up multiball was scum after it was pointed out. But if he had actually read and also actually thought that was an issue (as shown by his reaction to me) he would have mentioned it.
If he had openly stated he was skimming/sipping stuff - no worries.
But he didn't, he chose to present like he read.
He was probably lying about that.
Why do you think town Pere would do that?
Also, in all seriousness, go back and read the *conversation* wherein I brought up multiball.
Not the post, the conversation, and ask yourself if it seemed scummy in any way particularly that I brought it up.
Then ask yourself why Pere thought it was scummy.
Then go and look at how I asked him to explain and the way (shifty and not answering) he chose to respond.

5. You voted me for reason A. I finish my reading, and give my thoughts on players. I'm then scummy for reason B. We talk about your multiball comment. I'm now scummy for reason C. Is this incorrect?

6. Yes, there is. was your reaction to my Scripten vote. Yuo had a "gut" townread on him based on these posts- ()28-39-301-362 & 364. I want to know how those posts influenced your gut to a townread.

7. Your "read" on me went from "Scum for A" to Scum for B to Scum for C. That doesn't sound like a read change, since I stayed scum. Sounds like reason changes. Between A and B, I posted , where you "could be scum if multiball".

If you bother responding, keep the history so people can read in context. TIA
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Post Post #1632  (ISO)  » Thu Oct 16, 2014 3:55 pm

In post 1627, goodmorning wrote:
In post 1624, davesaz wrote:Hey, there are reads! I'll take your offer of explanation, please start with the material you're using to read GrayFoxxx and Izariael.

Gray is Town based on my very long interaction with Csareo.
Izariael I'm really not reading either way, that's the Null pile.


Can you point to something from GrayFoxxx which confirms this read? If not that, can you point to something specific from Csareo and explain why it makes that slot town?

I know Izariael is in your null pile. Can you explain the null based on material in the thread? Or explain what's missing?

Barring that, can you point to anything concrete in the thread to explain any of your reads?

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Post Post #1633  (ISO)  » Thu Oct 16, 2014 4:24 pm

I can't tell whether Axle should be getting scum points or farside22 points right now.

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Post Post #1634  (ISO)  » Thu Oct 16, 2014 4:25 pm

Anen I got your questions but I'm gonna hold off on answering till I'm not phone posting.

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Post Post #1635  (ISO)  » Thu Oct 16, 2014 4:49 pm

In post 1630, Egg wrote:The TSO vs Axle arguement is a little boring, but I feel like I should throw in my two cents. Axle asked TSO for Aneninen's posts that absolutely can NOT come from town. TSO gives a quote wall and attacks Axle for focusing on the RVS vote in the quote wall. I actually think Axle is making a good point that TSO is making more of a case than what is actually there, especially when he admits that the RVS post was more "I disagree with" than "town couldn't possibly" because at that point, TSO isn't really doing what was asked of him to make his case.


This paragraph probably deserves to be broken down and minutely disintegrated by logic - but this'll have to do.

Axle's question firstly, was an idiotic question. Your question, below, is also an idiotic question. I cannot prove that "town couldn't possibly say this." I can prove scum are more likely to say it. I can prove town have no logical reason to say it.

There is no point in me explaining why I think Anen is scum (and that's not as strong a read as it was) and why Axle's taking of the RVS quote was so stupid until you get that point.

In post 1630, Egg wrote:As for my conclusion on the arguement, Axle looks obvtown. TSO, not so much.


are you high off your tits

he's literally has posted the same monotonous bullshit for 10 pages straight.
but you're obviously okay with Axle repeating himself constantly, though - why do you think that's a towntell again?

ohh, and he's trying to bullshit his way around his lack of reads. v town.

In post 1630, Egg wrote:I don't understand why people are having trouble reading Axle's posts...The only thing that bothers me is that I phone post, so spoiler tags are basically the same as invisible text which isn't allowed for very good reason.


I haven't read Axle's posts and my sanity is beginning to return - they actually give me a headache to read. I recently finished a game where Reck gave farside abuse for being borderline illiterate. Farside is significantly more literate than Axle.

In post 1630, Egg wrote:Gamr's push on Aneninen is getting so bad.


Garmr is pushing Axle, Egg.

In post 1630, Egg wrote:
TSO wrote: If anyone wants to talk about why Aneninen is scum, I'm open to that.

Let's talk. Start by summarizing your case. Use only the strongest arguements and show me why this absolutely can not be town.


In post 1630, Egg wrote:So without the "fucking shitty" etc to make it sound worse, TSO, let me know if I'm understanding your Aneninen case correctly. He called you scum. You said his reasons were bad. He didn't respond. Town would absolutely 100% of the time respond, so he's scum?


Read above and below, and don't expect a response next time if you summarise things like this.

I don't understand why you're trying to misrep my point when you're good enough and it's clear enough not to have to.

Aneninen, at a time where I was easy to attack, called me scum for bullshit reasons.
I debunked his bull and told him to back it up.
He didn't respond, reply or defend himself in any way.
He still had a scumread on me.
I voted him.
I was now even more scum.

Where do you not understand this, Egg?

In post 1630, Egg wrote:Aneninen, can I have your thoughts on the two lines I'm posting before this one?


Why are you treating Aneninen with kid gloves?

In post 1630, Egg wrote:Tier, I disagree with you where you say Aneninen's 418 doesn't at least imply a scum read on TSO.


Oh, it definitely implies a scumread on me. Problem is, I snapped out of being an emo bitch and attacked him for shitty reasoning, and he ...walked away and never replied or defended himself, while still having a scumread on me.

I'm sure you can defend the above, so go ahead.
"i have the sickest grossest feeling that even if it's my lynch today, my townflip still won't lead to a tso lynch, and then he'll find some bullshit way to reason either shooting or lynching gm tomorrow because if there's anyone who can strongarm a mislynch despite his reads or cases being proved wrong time and again it's tso" -Marquis

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Post Post #1636  (ISO)  » Thu Oct 16, 2014 4:52 pm

In post 1612, Aneninen wrote:Catching-up. @TSO. As for Hephaestus, ISO him! Naked vote for Nero. Half-hearted focusing on me. Null-ing PerV (not unsorted/unsure, NULL). Naked vote for me. Naked unvote from me. And promises, promises that he will post his reads. Need I say more?


Yes. The majority of those things point to him not giving a fuck about this game. I don't think you're going to be able to prove the difference between that and scum here.
"i have the sickest grossest feeling that even if it's my lynch today, my townflip still won't lead to a tso lynch, and then he'll find some bullshit way to reason either shooting or lynching gm tomorrow because if there's anyone who can strongarm a mislynch despite his reads or cases being proved wrong time and again it's tso" -Marquis

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Post Post #1637  (ISO)  » Thu Oct 16, 2014 4:53 pm

In post 1615, AxleGreaser wrote:
In post 1612, Aneninen wrote:To tell the truth, I've had an intuition that he had been protecting me because of trying to get towncredits in case of my mislynch.

I am not protecting you.

Indeed what you claim doesn't make sense is me not protecting you by claiming you are town.

I have in the thread only claimed I find TSO reasons suspect.

if you actually got lynched or vigged and flipped town, I get no "credit" for guessing you were town, because as you just observed I never said you were town....

I will get towny credit if TSO flips scum.

please try and make your theories fit the facts.


Egg you should also explain to me how town could possibly post this.
"i have the sickest grossest feeling that even if it's my lynch today, my townflip still won't lead to a tso lynch, and then he'll find some bullshit way to reason either shooting or lynching gm tomorrow because if there's anyone who can strongarm a mislynch despite his reads or cases being proved wrong time and again it's tso" -Marquis

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Post Post #1638  (ISO)  » Thu Oct 16, 2014 5:20 pm

In post 1628, Muffin wrote:Why does this make an axlegreaser vote more palatable to you than an aneninen vote? It seems to me this ought to reinforce your scum read on aneninen the scum bro, should it not?


A axle lynch is more telling at this point. His the one that doesn't want to mention what he think of annienen his the one avoiding the subject. Look at the recent stuff his been posting that's not town.

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Post Post #1639  (ISO)  » Thu Oct 16, 2014 5:30 pm

In post 1614, Garmr wrote:True if he is scum other scum may bust him but you have failed to even mention your thoughts on Annenne while pushing the fact constantly he may be town like post 442# post 996# while post 1062 attacks tso for why those post can't come from a town annienen. But yet you yourself don't mention what alignment he may be or thoughts on him why?


is not my post . Clarify (hint type 442 highlight it, press post button at the top of the editor. voila a link you can check)

post # not my post
while post yep that pone is mine. it is being responsive to TSO simply not even attempting to answer my question about Aneninen, TSOs supposed top scum read.)

because the person most likely to be scum was TSO.

because i was attempting to find put if TSO had a genuine read on Aneninen.

because if TSO is scum the read is faked about a scum mate or faked about a townie, thus Aneninens alignment is moot.

because if TSO is town his read is correct about scum and i should be on the wagon too, or wrong about Aneninen and simply mistaken.

At no point is Aneninens alignment relevant to the question I am seeking answers too.

So, I didnt comment on things that are not relevant to TSOs alignment...

because I wanted to work out TSOs alignment

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Post Post #1640  (ISO)  » Thu Oct 16, 2014 5:32 pm

In post 1618, Garmr wrote:
In post lols, AxleGreaser wrote:Oh no garmr caught me what do I do.

:P



it would be funnier if your link went to a post I made in response to you. Please do better with your links (check them?)

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Post Post #1641  (ISO)  » Thu Oct 16, 2014 5:38 pm

Votecount 1.13

[7]PeregrineV: Egg, Thor665, Muffin, Scripten, davesaz, The Fonz, Boonskiies
[4]Thor: goodmorning, Nero Cain, flubbernugget, PeregrineV
[2]Aneninen: T S O, Cho
[2]AxleGreaser: Garmr, Aneninen
[1]Cho: Grayfoxxxx
[1]T S O: AxleGreaser

[4] Not Voting: Aeronaut, hephaestus, TierShift, Izariael

With 21 alive, it takes 12 to lynch.

Day 1 deadline: (expired on 2014-10-18 22:12:03)

Mod Notes
Consider the deadline suspended until replacements are found. Tell your friends to join this game!

Thor is V/LA until the 19th.
TierShift is V/LA until the 18th.
Currently partying at the M A S Q U E R A D E -- a Large Normal for 21 revelers.

Aegor
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Post Post #1642  (ISO)  » Thu Oct 16, 2014 5:41 pm

I am having a problem finding replacements. I do not want to modkill any slots, but that is an option that I am now considering. I will not allow the game to proceed to night when there are inactive slots. Accordingly, I will again post in the Replacements Requests thread, but I urge you strongly to reach out to players you enjoy playing with to see if they will replace in. Feel free to PM me about any of this.
Currently partying at the M A S Q U E R A D E -- a Large Normal for 21 revelers.

AxleGreaser
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Post Post #1643  (ISO)  » Thu Oct 16, 2014 6:14 pm

In post 1620, The Fonz wrote:
In post 1582, AxleGreaser wrote:
In post 1460, The Fonz wrote:PV: NO! You still haven't answered the question of why you assumed insider knowledge rather than error.

"Most games this big have multiscum. So it's safe to assume it, therefore we can't rule out two players both being scum even if their interactions appear unlikely from teammates."

Give me literally ANY possible Thor thought process that makes even close to as much sense as the above and is compatible with your allegations.


I have feeling that knife cuts both ways.
Thor didn't seriously entertain the idea that PereV, might just believe that multiball was not likely and hence assuming it was a TMI thing. At least enough to have towny poke to see what happens.


I don't think it does. I agree that it is initially possible PV-town, based on a belief that '21 players' was in no way a reason to believe multiball likely, then thought 'Well what else could make him assume that? Insider knowledge!' That's derpy, but possible. Thor's case, although he was already voting PV for other reasons, is that Nero was the first person to make an assumption about multiball, and PV was being inconsistent.

Thats Ok, (I like your reasoning {tick}) but I have one problem. I have a town PM. My sample of absolute known reactions by a towny to
Nero, Town!Axle: yes the post mentions multiball, but in way that leads me to think Nero does not know, and is considering both options.
Thor , Town!Axle: the post says "Well...first off multiball is a pretty safe assumption", which I read as a statement about statistical probabilities.
in no way suggest to me PereV ought have the same reaction to both.
Note "That's derpy, but possible." is about exactly how I read PereV and that push. I see 'good' players make pushes I think are derpy or inexplicable and I have to simply shrug my shoulders and go meh, because way too often its not scummy.
Spoiler: Thor making a depry word shift
Nero: My read makes sense presuming it isn't multiball.
Thor: It makes sense to presume multiball and I have other issues with your case.
Pere: The way Thor mentioned multiball has certainty - and if it's multiball he is scummy!
Thor: How does that make sense.
Pere: Because of the way you said it.
Thor: Which is?
Pere: With certainty.
Thor: Like?
Pere: Saying "it makes sense to presume multiball"
Thor: Which shows certainty how?
Pere: I'd like to debate your definition of multiball and ask you about other reads as a smokescreen for a while, while still failing to understand why you find this scummy.

Pere didnt say that. That also is not what Thor said. As a statement it does not carry the spirit and intent of the original that implied and was interpreted to have statistical certainty. Not a fair and reasonable representation of events.
and unfortunately IMO not even scum/town indicative that Thor did that.... Just fast a teeny bit loose with the truthiness of quotes and paraphrasing.
TLDR: SNAFU Thor is Thor.


Note also that the conditionality in PV's post is inconsistent: He doesn't suspect Thor if it's not multiball. This means he's accepting the possibility of Thor being town making a bad assumption, in the non-multiball case.

Now that one is interesting.(and something I hadn't thought of... (my bad: I am good enough at combinatorics I think I should have))
But I am not sure if I can expect him to notice that, people currently are pushing the idea I have to know one players alignment in order to push and poke at another. pre flip associations are bad. people get tunnelled.
Deciding how interesting, That will take one sleeping on it.

Since town wouldn't have insider knowledge either way, his logic requires him to accept the possibility of Thor being a townie making a bad assumption even if it IS multiball. So it requires a combo of illogic and ignoring things to fit the case you want to make. I don't see a similar flaw in Thor's case. PV's double standard is a double standard regardless of multiball status. Note also that Thor describes the Thor suspicion as 'a smokescreen for doing nothing.'


I am still deciding what level of doing nothing I should measure PereV against. There are players in the game (or were goofyDood) that if they did as much as PereV, people would look at them funny for that as it would be out of character.
IIRC, Thor did, add much later other aspects to his case, but I do see PereV doing other things its a qualitative judgement of how much.
Frankly Id prefer to lynch someone, who was less of loss to town if they flip town D1. At best I see the PereV case as being coin flippy, based on the experience and skill I have.

I don't think Thor's the type to back off when he thinks he has scum in his sights.

I am virtually sure hes not, and that as scum he will do that too.

This means I think the counterwagon on him is bad.

I don't see a causal connection between those last two thoughts.
I do see that I don't want to support a wagon on Thor D1 unless i have a rather good reason. I try hard not to accidentally lynch people scum should really want to shoot.

If PV's town, high likelihood Flubber is scum trying to get townie points for opposing a mislynch, and use it to subsequently persecute people on the wagon. That seems to me a fairly common scum replacement strat.

I generally find they may do that and you catch them if you dont call the shot first.... There are good reasons not to give out all your reads all of the time.

Not sure I see that from a PV buddy though - for the same reasons, "Replace in and hardcore chainsaw your buddy's attacker" is a pretty rare and bold scum move.

I don't like the Anen wagon either.


I don't like it so bad I am sure there is scum on it.
How many scum and how many fall guys is hard to tell.
The other option is pig headed townies.

Also lynching into that pool of suspects (Aneninens wagon) still leaves the ball in scums court tonight.
I should get off my arse and write a real case on one, but IRL is a hard mistress.

AxleGreaser
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Post Post #1644  (ISO)  » Thu Oct 16, 2014 6:54 pm

Spoiler: replacements and PMs
Id reach out to players i want to play with, but as I have never played with many of them before not sure what the reach would do.
So I will say it backwards.
ANYONE, that "wants to play" is a player that meets my criteria (enjoy playing with) ModPost Said:but I urge you strongly to reach out to players you enjoy playing with to see if they will replace in.

Given the game is 66 pages, anyone that "wants to play" in this game I will really enjoy playing with.

"wants to play" definition: reads the thread, posts words, either is or pretends to be pro-town. pretending to be scum as both alignments, or IDGAF, or ... not so much. (but hey there are even worse ways to play)

meh I might PM some strangers anyways.

Also I have big big big thing about information and what constitutes it.
If I PM someone and they join then, just we two, both know I PM'd them... that is information. I will tell the thread.
Also if some of you have well known alts, or are well known alts, sorry. (wont be PMing SGirl)


Spoiler: game summary reading guide.
First TSO and Csareo had a great big spit ball match. (Warning: Csareo vanished in a puff of mod logic we wont be talking about, so mainly ignore that it didn't happen)
Then Thor and PereV tried to chew one anothers legs off.
It's entertaining if you like that kind of thing.
and meh, the rest has been largely 'sideshow alley'.

Id like to claim my push on TSO is a "wagon of justice", but the only other guy who was voting it just voted me... so that wagon is going swimmingly.
Come join the fun.

Muffin
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Post Post #1645  (ISO)  » Thu Oct 16, 2014 7:09 pm

In post 1644, AxleGreaser wrote:Warning: Csareo vanished in a puff of mod logic we wont be talking about, so mainly ignore that it didn't happen

Why don't you think a player slot should be judged by all who played it?
One's self-meta cannot be known without invalidating it.

Egg
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Post Post #1646  (ISO)  » Thu Oct 16, 2014 7:17 pm

TSO wrote:I cannot prove that "town couldn't possibly say this." I can prove scum are more likely to say it. I can prove town have no logical reason to say it.


Ok. Fair enough. Doing the second satisfies me just as much

TSO wrote:he's literally has posted the same monotonous bullshit for 10 pages straight.
but you're obviously okay with Axle repeating himself constantly, though - why do you think that's a towntell again?

ohh, and he's trying to bullshit his way around his lack of reads. v town.


Show me where I said something I haven't made it to yet in my read is a town tell.

TSO wrote:Garmr is pushing Axle, Egg.


Not between pages 41-49 where I was reading.

TSO wrote:Read above and below, and don't expect a response next time if you summarise things like this.

I don't understand why you're trying to misrep my point when you're good enough and it's clear enough not to have to.

Aneninen, at a time where I was easy to attack, called me scum for bullshit reasons.
I debunked his bull and told him to back it up.
He didn't respond, reply or defend himself in any way.
He still had a scumread on me.
I voted him.
I was now even more scum.

Where do you not understand this, Egg?


Thank you for the answer. This is what I was looking for.

Aneninen wrote:Why are you treating Aneninen with kid gloves?


His side of things is just as important to me as yours.

I'll answer 1637 when I see it in context. But right now, it looks like Axle was accused of protecting Aneninen for town cred and replied by saying he doesn't even see where he'd get town cred for it, which seems fair to me.

Gonna send a few PMs for potential replacements then read a few more pages. Unfortunately, I got to my apartment later than I expected, so I don't have a ton of time.

AxleGreaser
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Post Post #1647  (ISO)  » Thu Oct 16, 2014 7:30 pm

@PereV Hi.

It is important you read the words that I say in this post and respond to this post.
Do not try and explain your case/points against Thor to me, I read that already.

Your are a towny, you are trying to work the game out (or pretending to)
(ooo spooky colours)

What is your current belief in how likely this game is to be multiball?
Why?

goodmorning
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Post Post #1648  (ISO)  » Thu Oct 16, 2014 7:47 pm

In post 1630, Egg wrote:Goodmorning, how would you define "vanity wagon"?

A wagon that, for any reason, is not likely to reach a lynch, esp. applied to wagons with only one vote on them.

In post 1632, davesaz wrote:
In post 1627, goodmorning wrote:
In post 1624, davesaz wrote:Hey, there are reads! I'll take your offer of explanation, please start with the material you're using to read GrayFoxxx and Izariael.

Gray is Town based on my very long interaction with Csareo.
Izariael I'm really not reading either way, that's the Null pile.

Can you point to something from GrayFoxxx which confirms this read? If not that, can you point to something specific from Csareo and explain why it makes that slot town?

Not from Gray, no. With Csareo it was pretty much cumulative answers to my questions, but I'll go back through tomorrow and pull some quotes for him while I'm doing the Fonz thing for Thor.

I know Izariael is in your null pile. Can you explain the null based on material in the thread? Or explain what's missing?

What's missing is concrete posts.
Izariael has 47 posts right now. I don't remember any of them. Not a single post from Izariael has made a lasting impact.

Barring that, can you point to anything concrete in the thread to explain any of your reads?

I'm going to pretend I don't know what you're implying.
EFFORT IS NOT INDICATIVE OF ALIGNMENT
Calling On Dragons coming eventually!

Get to know a very pleasant AM.

AxleGreaser
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Post Post #1649  (ISO)  » Thu Oct 16, 2014 7:56 pm

In post 1638, Garmr wrote:
In post 1628, Muffin wrote:Why does this make an axlegreaser vote more palatable to you than an aneninen vote? It seems to me this ought to reinforce your scum read on aneninen the scum bro, should it not?


A axle lynch is more telling at this point. His the one that doesn't want to mention what he think of annienen his the one avoiding the subject. Look at the recent stuff his been posting that's not town.


So explain what about it is not town.
Explain what lynching me would tell you and why.

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