Open 572: Nightless Vengeful Mayhem - Game Over

[Not_Mafia]

VC 4.09

Bicephalous Bob (2)-

Thor665, droog

Phillammon (1)-

Fink

Shaddowez (0)-

Thor665 (2)-

Bicephalous Bob, Dyslexicon

droog (0)-

Fink (1)-

Phillammon

Dyslexicon (0)-

Bert (0)-

Not Voting (2)-

Shaddowez, Bert

With

8

alive, it takes

5

to lynch.

Deadline is in

(expired on 2014-10-21 20:00:00)

- Oct 21th 19:00 GMT

[Thor665]

I support a lynch between Thor and Bob now.

Your core logic, that I have been attacking my detractors, is proveably untrue - I town read you long before you ever said you could see me as town.
Also, if you're down with choosing between me and the guy you agree isn't explaining things but that this makes him "Fearless" scum. Vote the fearless scum, please.

@Bob - intentionally not addressing your last wall of empty. People should be able to look at that and see it for what it is without me.

[Thor665]

@Dys - just look at 1068 and 1069 and tell me you see that as Thorscum and Bobtown.
I'll wait.

[Bicephalous Bob]

Wow, you're not even reading what I'm writing now, are you, you're just super happy about that and knowing I was wrong choosing to harp on it without paying attention to what I'm actually saying.

You are blatant scum.

I thought you were sarcastic about being wrong.

We're making progress!

[droog]

bob's posts make a lot of sense if he's a blair alt

[Bert]

Hi. Prod dodge.

I know so few here that I'm having trouble not mixing names with posts/style...the debates are taking a while to sort through. Apologies.

[Fink]

I'm interested in looking at Thor's contention that Bob's reads are made up, so I'm going to look at all the posts on page 2 that he could have formed reads from.

page 2
droog seems town
thor doesn't

if I understand the setup correctly, johnny staying alive was pretty essential to the scumteam
thor would want the first day to end before he's forced to oppose the johnny wagon

also "I townread droog" doesn't feel natural in context

What I notice (which I think is what Thor is talking about) is that Bob is

already

approaching this from the presumption of scumThor. Obviously he looked at the flips (and I think he agreed he saw a current votecount) so he's read a touch more than just pages 1 and 2, but I have to agree this looks like a read generated fabricated to justify a vote that has already been decided. Which is the same thing I'm accusing Phil of, but Bob is doing it worse.

Anyway, let's look at what was posted up until page 2 to generate these reads.

Droog seems town

post 15: "If you say stupid things you will start stupid discussions" & votes Cheetory to drive 2 wagons.
post 16: Notices that YYR voted twice, so wagons aren't tied.
post 30: Confirming Dys' explaination of Droog's miscounting wgeurts/Cheetory votes. Don't see how you could get anything from this.
post 32: "Question was dumber than autocorrect." That's all, again not allignment indicative.
post 34: Explaining to Dys why he thinks YYR's question is dumb (because it will only lead to someone calling it dumb or meta talk). I don't see how this is alignment indicative either, but it does take a stance, so I guess maybe you could.
post 37: Snarky empty reply.
post 38: "Do you?" (Asking if Dys has anything to say.)
post 40: Explaining to Cheetory that his reasoning about the useless question has nothing to do with his Cheetory vote.

Thor doesn't

There's only 2 of these, so I'll just quote them, esp. since they're the most important part:

Vote: Cheetory

L-1
Anyone who isn't serious about this can flee like children now. We have a wagon at near lynch.
I am also open to hear from anyone who likes the idea of hammering it.

I townread Droog.
I would be willing to lynch Dyx as an alternate wagon.

Firstly, I don't understand the point of bandwagoning for the sake of bandwagoning, especially since it seems to me like most of the players here seem experienced enough to know that bandwagon analysis can be useful for town. Why would scum not simply position themselves on a wagon in such a way that will protect them from the general analysis players apply to bandwagons? Unless the point is just to put pressure on someone? Which, again, scum equally stands to benefit from safe bandwagon votes for the sake of appearing to be playing protown.

droog's vote on me stands out as the most likely candidate for scum posing as a protown player for adding momentum to a wagon without really doing anything else, which reads as coasting to me. By extension, I'm also not particularly a fan of Dys's vote, but I feel worse about droog's. Droog also calls YYR's questioning of me bad scumhunting which almost makes me feel like he finds YYR more questionable than me and thus makes his vote on me for purely bandwagon's sake even more questionable.

Correct me if I'm wrong here. But you're pointing out that bandwagoning isn't helpful because scum can place themselves on bandwagons in a way to avoid suspicion.
You then vote Droog for the reasoning of "his position on the bandwagon looks suspicious"

I feel like I *must* be reading this wrong, because if I'm not I feel like you just claimed scum. Discuss?

Thor's first post seems to me like a way to see what everyone does and push the game forward: he wants to see who unvotes, who considers hammering. It seems like he's trying to put everyone in a weird position. I don't find it scummy, but I guess I can see that, but not as a strong read.

Thor's second post (immediately after the first) seems to be supporting his vote in his first post as a serious vote. The "claimed scum" thing is over-the-top (as has been discussed

ad nauseum

) but he does appear to be legitimately pressing a scum read. He's just doing it antagonistically.

So here's Bob's elaboration on this later (regarding Thor's first post):

I've talked to you about anti-town behavior and mafia principles, which is what this is all about
You had a way more self-righteous attitude when talking about it in md
It's hard to say why your attitude isn't
Why should page 2 reads be easier to explain than page 40 reads? I find them equally hard to articulate.

Bob doesn't really elaborate on why he finds Thor's first post so scummy. I think the "anti-town" behavior thing comes from Thor's voting of wgeurts, but seeing as how the thread in MD where they interact is about Thor wanting to policy-lynch anyone who self-votes, the actual act of voting for scummy-quickhammering wgeurts is far from surprising.

What Bob seems to be saying, though, is that Thor is softer in his lynching of wgeurts here, and therefore scum. I'm not sure I buy the premise, but even if we grant that, the conclusion doesn't follow.

[*]Thor-the-person is in favor of lynching people for being anti-Town.
[*]Thor-the-player is less self-righteous in attempting to lynch quickhammering wgeurts than he is out-of-game.
...
Therefore: Thor is scum!

This doesn't make any sense.

@Bob: Explain your logic. What scum-motive does Thor have for being less abrassive? Because I can see a null reason for his behavior, even granting your premise. But I don't see any reason to expect scumThor in particular to behave like this or townThor to behave differently.

@Mod: Is it permissable to post quotes from the Mafia Discussion forum in game?

@Bob: I think I read the thread you're talking about today, and I don't see what you're talking about. Presuming Not_Mafia okays it, could you please post what Thor said in that thread that made you think he'd react differently?

@Bob: Could you explain what in the first two pages made you townread Droog (your only read at that point)?

@Thor: After Bob goes, could you explain why

you

townread Droog in that first post? Also your early Dys read?

[Fink]

That got a bit wallish, so let me summarize for anyone too lazy to read.

Bob when reading page 2 is already approaching this from the presumption of scumThor. I have to agree this looks like a read generated fabricated to justify a vote that has already been decided. Which is the same thing I'm accusing Phil of, but Bob is doing it worse.

I don't even think Thor's first 2 posts look scummy. I don't think Droog's first few posts look towny either (I'd have had him at null). My early-game scumread on Thor came later than this.

Bob quoted Thor's 1st post later, but didn't give much elaboration on it. The logic he uses is

Thor-the-person is in favor of lynching people for being anti-Town.
Thor-the-player is less self-righteous in attempting to lynch quickhammering wgeurts than he is out-of-game.
...
Therefore: Thor is scum!

This doesn't make any sense.

Droog has moved Phil to his top townread, Dys has abandoned the Phil wagon, we're getting close to deadline and I'm townreading Thor. Bob has come in and has made a really scummy case.

Go ahead and throw me on the scum pile for this Phil, I know I'm changing my previous position like some kind of evil pragmatist.

VOTE: Bob

[Fink]

@Mod: In addtion to the MD discussion question, is it permissible to post quotes from finished games?

[Bicephalous Bob]

it is

I won't try to explain my page 2 reads again but I'll give thor's push on geurts bugging me another shot

Thor-the-person is in favor of lynching people for being anti-Town.

Thor-the-player is less self-righteous in attempting to lynch quickhammering wgeurts than he is out-of-game.
...
Therefore: Thor is scum!

thor didn't react to any of wg's pleading posts

all townies I've seen push this kind of policy lynches felt the need to either blame the policy lynchees or throw in some vague mafia theory based on "common sense"

considering thor is the type of person who normally does both, it's weird that he did neither

-----

I thought I mentioned this before but thor's RVS interactions with johnny are way different than the interactions with others

he seems to be aimed at getting the biggest response from blair and cheetory, while the interactions with johnny are really, really soft and he isn't asking him anything

see post 77 for a side-by-side comparison of two scumreads

[Fink]

Something I re-found from browsing old Thor games. These both come from page #1 of a finished game where Thor was Vanilla Town.

Unvote: Nachomamma8
Vote: Red Coyote

Speed wagon ho!

@Myrk - we do not need to confirm.
Also, if you're town - replace out, I don't need someone who is going to be not interested in the game on my team.

Unvote: Red Coyote
Vote: Mykonian

L-1 on Myrk.
Trololololol.

Why don't you explain what you know about me as far as that comment making me scum?

I'm pretty sure his jumping on L-1 is alignment-null.

[Fink]

@Bob: What makes you think wgeurts was a pure policy lynch?

[Fink]

@Bob: Explain your logic. What scum-motive does Thor have for being less abrassive? Because I can see a null reason for his behavior, even granting your premise. But I don't see any reason to expect scumThor in particular to behave like this or townThor to behave differently.

@Bob: I think I read the thread you're talking about today, and I don't see what you're talking about. Could you please post what Thor said in that thread that made you think he'd react differently?

@Bob: Could you explain what in the first two pages made you townread Droog (your only read at that point)?

[Bicephalous Bob]

@Bob: Explain your logic. What scum-motive does Thor have for being less abrassive? Because I can see a null reason for his behavior, even granting your premise. But I don't see any reason to expect scumThor in particular to behave like this or townThor to behave differently.

I don't think he did it on purpose

@Bob: I think I read the thread you're talking about today, and I don't see what you're talking about. Could you please post what Thor said in that thread that made you think he'd react differently?

if he hadn't gone out of his way to make a thread advocating scumreading one type of anti-town behavior I might've bought that he would half-ass another

@Bob: Could you explain what in the first two pages made you townread Droog (your only read at that point)?

the way he immediately initiated questioning motivation

also gut

[Bicephalous Bob]

Something I re-found from browsing old Thor games. These both come from page #1 of a finished game where Thor was Vanilla Town.

Unvote: Nachomamma8
Vote: Red Coyote

Speed wagon ho!

@Myrk - we do not need to confirm.
Also, if you're town - replace out, I don't need someone who is going to be not interested in the game on my team.

Unvote: Red Coyote
Vote: Mykonian

L-1 on Myrk.
Trololololol.

Why don't you explain what you know about me as far as that comment making me scum?

I'm pretty sure his jumping on L-1 is alignment-null.

I already I didn't like the way he did it

both of those posts seem very spontaneous

@Bob: What makes you think wgeurts was a pure policy lynch?

I didn't say pure

[Not_Mafia]

@Mod: Is it permissable to post quotes from the Mafia Discussion forum in game?

@Mod: In addtion to the MD discussion question, is it permissible to post quotes from finished games?

Yes and yes.

[shaddowez]

Sorry for the absence, life got busier than expected. Will be back Sunday night

[droog]

If bob somehow isn't scum
It's funk or Thor

Nice reenact analysis Fink

[Thor665]

@Thor: After Bob goes, could you explain why

you

townread Droog in that first post? Also your early Dys read?

I townread Droog for early and aggressive wagoning and opposition of spreading out votes.
I scumread Dyx for the way she voted Cheetory - she was aware the wagon was there, did nothing with it, and then voted him for the 'good life' comment. Felt very fake and strategic rather than motivated by actual thoughts.

Also, as noted, no one argued with me about it - so who should I have been arguing to convince?
Also - I did argue that the lynch needed to happen - the only debate I had with people was *when* not *why*.
You are saying it was scummy I didn't debate *why*...well, who should I have debated it with exactly?
I'll agree I didn't, but...

all townies I've seen push this kind of policy lynches felt the need to either blame the policy lynchees or throw in some vague mafia theory based on "common sense"

considering thor is the type of person who normally does both, it's weird that he did neither

I use 'good play' not 'common sense'. Also, I did note that the play was bad.
Your play is also bad, if that makes you feel better.

see post 77 for a side-by-side comparison of two scumreads

I'd actually forgotten about this and find it interesting you brought it up - and I think it showcases why your case is bunk and you're ignoring it.
Your case on me is that I was trying to get a quickwagon so I wouldn't have to address the option of a Johnny lynch.
You then quote me specifically inviting the person I am trying to quick lynch to help me wagon my most powerful scumbuddy.
And you think that shows me as scummy in any way at all?

You just made a strong argument for Thor obv. town and called it scummy.
Good work.

[Thor665]

I went back with an additional idea and added it to the wrong part of the post. The second paragraph responding to Fink should be a second paragraph for the first quote responding to Bob.

[Dyslexicon]

Lalala. So, are we lynching Bob?

[Fink]

Lalala. So, are we lynching Bob?

If it's Bob vs. Thor, absolutely. If we can get a few more on Phil, I'm even happier with that, but by my count it's you, me, and probably Bob if it were him-or-Phil. Droog's townreading Phil now, and Thor still is, so unless Shaddowez and 4th-time's-the-charm-hopefully guy both want to lynch Phil, it looks like Bob is the best lynch.

No way in hell am I voting Thor or you at this point.

But with only 6 active, it's going to be pretty damn hard to get 5 votes on anyone. Assuming no self-votes, that means everyone else has to be unanimous. So what we really need is those other two to catch up and have some opinions.

[Bicephalous Bob]

I'd actually forgotten about this and find it interesting you brought it up - and I think it showcases why your case is bunk and you're ignoring it.
Your case on me is that I was trying to get a quickwagon so I wouldn't have to address the option of a Johnny lynch.

I'm interested in what I think Thor's trying to get at, i.e. what is it about him that makes you think he wouldn't put something at L-1.

I'm not sure he wouldn't have done it, but I think the way he went about it was weird (I know I implied something else in 1008, but that was me getting fed up)

so I still think the post surrounding your L-1 vote is terribly forced and Fink's quotes of other L-1 votes of yours only made me feel stronger about it

but I don't think I was right on the motivation the first time around

You then quote me specifically inviting the person I am trying to quick lynch to help me wagon my most powerful scumbuddy.
And you think that shows me as scummy in any way at all?

You just made a strong argument for Thor obv. town and called it scummy.
Good work.

yeah you figured out how to unsubtly distance

you didn't address my actual reasons at all though:

I thought I mentioned this before but thor's RVS interactions with johnny are way different than the interactions with others

he seems to be aimed at getting the biggest response from blair and cheetory, while the interactions with johnny are really, really soft and he isn't asking him anything

see post 77 for a side-by-side comparison of two scumreads

1. Is it true that your RVS play is aimed at provoking a telling response, especially from your scumreads?
2. When did you start scumreading Johnny?
3. If 1 is correct, what did you do to provoke a response from Johnny? For example, why didn't you ask him why he thought having many early scumreads was scummy in 77, instead of stating your personal opinion?

[Bicephalous Bob]

I'd written this before that but forgot to merge

Also, as noted, no one argued with me about it - so who should I have been arguing to convince?
Also - I did argue that the lynch needed to happen - the only debate I had with people was *when* not *why*.
You are saying it was scummy I didn't debate *why*...well, who should I have debated it with exactly?
I'll agree I didn't, but...

policy lynching a newbie isn't fun

showing everyone you're smart and you thought about this and you're a good guy is

I don't care how much you claim to not give a shit, but I am convinced that you are the type of person that would always respond to a newbie pleading for his life

scum you wouldn't have the same incentive because you unquestionably doing the right thing by lynching town

Your play is also bad, if that makes you feel better.

no but it doesn't make me feel much worse either

[Thor665]

but I don't think I was right on the motivation the first time around

Oh, good, so I disprove all your logic, so you will keep the same conclusion and just change the logic supporting it.
Makes sense.

yeah you figured out how to unsubtly distance

It's a step up from your previous theory of "Thor were scurred ta talk 'bout his scumbuddy" so - sure.

you didn't address my actual reasons at all though:

Well...actually I did - you stated your logic and I crushed it. But, sure, let's talk about this other stuff that is now your reason.

1. Is it true that your RVS play is aimed at provoking a telling response, especially from your scumreads?
2. When did you start scumreading Johnny?
3. If 1 is correct, what did you do to provoke a response from Johnny? For example, why didn't you ask him why he thought having many early scumreads was scummy in 77, instead of stating your personal opinion?

1. No. It is aimed at generating responses from people. A large percentage is focused on whomever I am currently voting, though. I'll agree with that. But that's different than what you are saying.
2. I don't think I really did. I never town read him though, and was fine with the idea of running him up to L-1. I suppose you could say "since game start" but that's really in a "lack of town read" sort of way.
3. I dinged at his thoughts a bit, and found his approach to Blair iffy, but I don't think I ever particularly targeted him with anything. I don
t see how it matters though.

I don't care how much you claim to not give a Smurf, but I am convinced that you are the type of person that would always respond to a newbie pleading for his life

Why are you convinced by this, person who has stated that they don't know the meta of me?

You've already tried to equate my attitude towards self-voting to = my attitude towards speed lynching and tried to suggest vague scumminess due to that.
Now you're telling me how much I would or would not choose to educate people about in a non-Newbie where...I have spent large amounts of the day exactly educating people on other types of play...which *includes* behavior around the lynch that you're saying it's scummy that I didn't try to educate people over.

You have no meta of me, and are misrepresenting what I did and then claiming i makes me scum due to a made up meta in your own head.
This is not town thinking, this is a scum flail case.