Open 572: Nightless Vengeful Mayhem - Game Over

[Not_Mafia]

VC 4.11

Bicephalous Bob (3)-

Thor665, droog, Phillammon

(L-2)

Phillammon (2)-

Shaddowez, Fink

Shaddowez (0)-

Thor665 (2)-

Bicephalous Bob, Dyslexicon

droog (0)-

Fink (0)-

Dyslexicon (0)-

Bert (0)-

Not Voting (1)-

Bert

With

8

alive, it takes

5

to lynch.

Deadline is in

(expired on 2014-10-21 20:00:00)

- Oct 21th 19:00 GMT

[Not_Mafia]

I'm V/LA for an indefinite amount of time.

Noted

[Bicephalous Bob]

nm, what happens if a majority isn't reached before deadline? (What are your plurality rules?)

[droog]

we have more mislynches than other towns would dream of
and we're still pushing deadlines

@dys; are yo uwilling to consider the bob wagon?

[Not_Mafia]

nm, what happens if a majority isn't reached before deadline? (What are your plurality rules?)

The votecount would reset and a no lynch would occur. (This is mod error)

[Thor665]

It's l-1go ahead
In hindsight
Fast lunches would've stopped this game from stalling

Yeah, if only someone had said this earlier and encouraged that...
Maybe I only imagined that happening though, after all, Bob never saw me ding people for poor play either.

In RVS, thor did everything in his power to keep the pressure low in his interactions with johnny, whom he didn't have a clear read on, while his interaction with literally everyone else were aimed at blandly generating responses. Even his push johnny was phrased as a suggestion to cheetory so johnny wouldn't have to defend himself.

Let's presume your point is true (ignoring that I encouraged the idea of wagoning him and also happily clarified the case on him for another player, and also did ding him) and presume I pinged on everyone except Johnny.
That means I was pinging on my other scumbuddy.
Is the theory just that I thought Johnny was a delicate flower or something? Or that I was horrified to lose my dear and precious Daykill buddy while manufacturing a speed lynch that actually wouldn't be helpful to that situation?

You also dodged actually answering the meta question about me, all while continuing to state beliefs about my meta that are, if anyone did any research into my meta, provably not true.

[Dyslexicon]

we have more mislynches than other towns would dream of
and we're still pushing deadlines

@dys; are yo uwilling to consider the bob wagon?

Yeah, no.

The most compelling arguments to me is still Blair's weird non-paranoia that I would flip scum, also his question what do you think of bob/dys team, wtf?

Problem is I read all his energy towards Thor mostly in two ways: Town, or scum hardcore distance. I think it's unlikely that it's scum flailing, cause that's what it looks like. It could be though, I don't know Bob very well (could see him teamed with Phil maybe, but if he's scum not teamed with Thor or Phil I don't understand the blantant tunneling on Thor, unless it's laziness. Well actually it could be just that).

I'm willing to go with it, there's a decent chance I guess, and the mutual tunneling is boring. We also need a lynch.

VOTE: Bob

That's L-1 guys.

[Bicephalous Bob]

are you seriously suggesting that thor decided to bus me right after johnny died

and what is the scum motivation for asking unusual questions

[Not_Mafia]

VC 4.12

Bicephalous Bob (4)-

Thor665, droog, Phillammon, Dyslexicon

(L-1)

Phillammon (2)-

Shaddowez, Fink

Shaddowez (0)-

Thor665 (1)-

Bicephalous Bob

droog (0)-

Fink (0)-

Dyslexicon (0)-

Bert (0)-

Not Voting (1)-

Bert

With

8

alive, it takes

5

to lynch.

Deadline is in

(expired on 2014-10-21 20:00:00)

- Oct 21th 19:00 GMT

[Phillammon]

I'm REALLY liking Bob/Fink right now. The moment that an alternate lynch became even possible, he's off Bob's wagon like a shot.

Though I will admit I would probably be criticizing him for not following up his #1 scumread if he didn't do that. So actually, scratch that. Sorry.

[Fink]

Good news everyone!

I've got a computer for several hours in the morning and again in the late afternoon, so I can catch up and give more extensive comments. Still no idea about tomorrow or the rest of the week though, so my Access remains Limited.

Yesterday I had like 15 minutes to post in 2 games, so I was pretty brief, let me expand on that...

[Fink]

Phil is my top scumread. Bob's terrible coming in so strongly sure that Thor was scum based on

nothing

on page 2 and talking about Thor's grand scum plan just seems so manufactured that although I was torn both ways on Blair, that makes him pretty damn scummy in my eyes and catapults him to scumread #2.

BUT I can't see Bob & Phil as a scum team. So while I'm increasingly convinced both are scum, I'm also convinced that I'm probably wrong about one of them. Whichever one is

not

scum is making up facts to fit their tunnel read, which is absurdly anti-town, so my ideal solution is to lynch both of them. Obviously if the first one is scum, there's no point lynching the other, but I really won't lose much sleep over the choice.

I can see Phil-Bert, Phil-Droog, Phil-Thor, or Bob-Shaddowez, Bob-Bert, Bob-Droog, or maybe even Bob-Dys (although Dys remains my strongest town read).

So obviously I'd prefer to figure out which of them is scum. Which is

why

I switched my vote. Let's say I keep my vote on Bob without bothering to switch to Phil. Then we lynch Bob. If he's scum (50% IMO), great, I can start working from a sort of town-bloc. But if he's town, then Phil remains my top scumread and we have no more information on him.

One reason I prefer the Phil lynch is that Bob seemed to be taking off better on it's own, but Phil has had

so much

trouble getting going, and I've frequently felt like people were ignoring me or deliberately misunderstanding my argument. Since we've so rarely had a full roster paying attention, this makes me think it likely that scumPhil's partner is subtley keeping the pressure off him. That's what puts Phil at my preferred lynch.

By pressing Phil, even if we lynch Bob and he flips town, I have more to go on in thinking about Phil. And if we lynch Phil, then we'll have lynched my top scumread, so there's also that.

[Fink]

Despite the mod error, I do believe it's against the spirit of the game to just no-lynch into eternity. It's also really lame. So given that I

am

scumreading Bob, I'll hammer him if no one is interested in joining me on Phil.

@Dys: Would you still be willing to join me on Phil if we got enough to lynch him? (I do agree we need a lynch, and I'm happy to hammer Bob if it comes to that, but while we've got some actual commitment on Phil from Shaddowez, I want to look into it. Although it totally also makes me think of a Shaddowez-Bob scumteam possibility. What do you think of that?

@Bob: We've pretty much only seen your opinions on Thor. Talk to me about my Phil case a bit. In the event you flip town, it would be nice to have some confirmed town feedback on this from someone else.

@Shaddowez: Why do you prefer Phil over Bob? I don't mean why is Phil scummy, I mean why

didn't

you want to vote for Bob given that he looked like the wagon for the day?

@Thor: You've been townreading Phil all day. Could you expand on your townread for me please?

@Bert: How long until you're caught up???!

[Fink]

I'm REALLY liking Bob/Fink right now. The moment that an alternate lynch became even possible, he's off Bob's wagon like a shot.

Though I will admit I would probably be criticizing him for not following up his #1 scumread if he didn't do that. So actually, scratch that. Sorry.

Phil, I could have attacked Thor in the first place instead of defending him. Like if I'm scum with Bob, why the hell would I go out of my way to find old games with which to call Bob's case on his counterwagon bullshit? That just makes 0 sense to me.

It seems like you just see everything I do as scummy, no matter what I do. And I've been scumreading you for having scum reads that seem based on nothing...

Posts like this make me worry that we're town-on-town and are both going to facepalm at the end of the game.
And fuck. Your self-doubt has me wanting to hammer the Bob wagon. Unless you've just figured out how to manipulate me. This game...

[Thor665]

@Thor: You've been townreading Phil all day. Could you expand on your townread for me please?

Nothing has changed since the last two or three times I've been asked to do this. To re-state; it's not really a town case beyond 'gut' but when I look at his posts and actions I can see scumhunting and I also strongly dislike the case on him as I find it empty and thus not a good reason to vote him compared to other, stronger, reads.

I feel like people keep thinking I have some grand uber Phil=town case. I've never said that. What I have said is that the Phil=scum case is pretty bad and that I have better X=scum cases than that.

[Phillammon]

As I mentioned in my massive Bob post, I thought that the retrieval of the posts could have been bussing, simply because of how terribad bob's push on thor has been. But again, that's at odds with the "do you really think" point that I made in the same post.

[Fink]

@Thor:

That post got across your read more clearly than the previous times you've said something like that (and yes, I was thinking you might have had new thoughts about him today.) Thanks for restating.

Back before Bob came in, was there anything about Blair

besides

the double-standard and the weird reaction when you started pressing her on it? What was it about the era of the big wall posts that bothered you and does it seem like a stronger or weaker thing now?

[Thor665]

Back before Bob came in, was there anything about Blair besides the double-standard and the weird reaction when you started pressing her on it? What was it about the era of the big wall posts that bothered you and does it seem like a stronger or weaker thing now?

No, other than the things I was pressing her on there was nothing I wanted to press her on.

I don't really understand the second part of the question. I guess "the same" is the answer? I think you're basically asking me if my read has grown stronger or not.

[droog]

we have more mislynches than other towns would dream of
and we're still pushing deadlines

@dys; are yo uwilling to consider the bob wagon?

Yeah, no.

The most compelling arguments to me is still Blair's weird non-paranoia that I would flip scum, also his question what do you think of bob/dys team, wtf?

Problem is I read all his energy towards Thor mostly in two ways: Town, or scum hardcore distance. I think it's unlikely that it's scum flailing, cause that's what it looks like. It could be though, I don't know Bob very well (could see him teamed with Phil maybe, but if he's scum not teamed with Thor or Phil I don't understand the blantant tunneling on Thor, unless it's laziness. Well actually it could be just that).

I'm willing to go with it, there's a decent chance I guess, and the mutual tunneling is boring. We also need a lynch.

VOTE: Bob

That's L-1 guys.

This is a weird post

Is there any opposition to a bob lunch at all?
Bob doesn't count

I don't see why this wasn't hammered last fortnight

[Fink]

Back before Bob came in, was there anything about Blair besides the double-standard and the weird reaction when you started pressing her on it? What was it about the era of the big wall posts that bothered you and does it seem like a stronger or weaker thing now?

No, other than the things I was pressing her on there was nothing I wanted to press her on.

I don't really understand the second part of the question. I guess "the same" is the answer? I think you're basically asking me if my read has grown stronger or not.

Yeah, sorry that looks unclear to me too now. I was asking if your read on Blair has changed (and yeah, you did answer that.) What I was trying to get at is that Bob has made me read the slot as scummier, and I'm pretty sure this is true of essentially everyone. I was wondering if, in retrospect, it made anything about your early scumread on Blair stronger or weaker than it was at the time when Blair occupied the slot.

And the main reason I'm picking your brain about this is, in the event Bob flips town, I want to know very specifically where you were coming from before you saw the flip. I'll probably still be defending you, but I want to be sure of that.

[Fink]

@Droog: What's weird about Dys' post specifically?

[Thor665]

Yeah, sorry that looks unclear to me too now. I was asking if your read on Blair has changed (and yeah, you did answer that.) What I was trying to get at is that Bob has made me read the slot as scummier, and I'm pretty sure this is true of essentially everyone. I was wondering if, in retrospect, it made anything about your early scumread on Blair stronger or weaker than it was at the time when Blair occupied the slot.

No, Bob has not made my read stronger. To be frank I was bewildered that anyone ever thought Blair looked townish and I find Bob to be of an equal level of scumminess to Blair. I think he just obfuscates it with less walls of text so it's easier to see and understand - I don't think he's actually scummier. To be honest, if I was forced to make a call on that, I'd actually call him less scummy - because at least he's not trying to puff himself up to get by his scumminess, which is a screaming scumtell in my opinion, he appears to instead be settling for lurk as the answer which...meh, is bad and lynchable all in its own right, but I've at least seen town do that too.

But, no, I do not consider him more scummy than Blair - which I think is your question.

And the main reason I'm picking your brain about this is, in the event Bob flips town, I want to know very specifically where you were coming from before you saw the flip. I'll probably still be defending you, but I want to be sure of that.

I feel I have been very specific about what I find scummy from both slots - is there any area where you think I've been unspecific or clear?

[Fink]

Thor, at this point I think I'm clear, I was just making sure.

I am inclined to hammer Bob tonight before I give up the computer I'm borrowing for the day. I would really like to hear back from Shaddowez and Dys (and actually Bob himself), but if I get two of those I guess I should consider myself lucky...

I don't know, I guess that's all I wanted to say. I'll wait for replies from them but I'll hammer before leaving the internet for the day and judge them for not answering.

[Bert]

Sorry about my absence. Picking on Thor is a really ill-advised plan for any scum in general, unless he thinks he can win out. Period. Much less casting aside any other reads and focusing only on Thor, and also his leading argument. There isn't much to discuss about Thor vs. Bob. Game set match.

[Thor665]

@Bert - any reads to offer currently?
Your slot is very empty to me right now.