Open 575: Friends & Enemies-Together At Last (OVER)

[Riddleton]

This is simply not true. I know Riddleton already did but I'm asking other players to look through his ISO, and tell me if the 2nd half really looks like bullshit.

There are 1 or 2 decent posts at the end, but that's about it. The rest of it is useless, hence 90% bullshit.

[Wisdom]

Wgeurts has never been scummy. The issues earlier were a big fuss over playstyle. He has, however, been a target for his newbie play, hence low-hanging fruit.

Bullshit.
wgeurts has been scummy since RVS. If you want to attribute the scumminess to newbiness that's another thing, but don't go claiming he hasn't been scummy.

[Wisdom]

Please read this for more information. Victor made a baseless vote against Wgeurts, he invented new reasoning to support his fallacious claim as he goes along, as he doesn't want to believe the wagon he's trying to push is incorrect.

Translation: Victor is scum for tunneling.

Because town never tunnel, huh?

Your case sucks.

[Mathdino]

I'll get back to you on the Victor meta analysis later; my URL was to illustrate how he likes to post one line responses to tons of quotes and also has a very unemotional tone. Didn't scan for defenciveness.

We're going to have to agree to disagree on d, I think. I see a possible town standpoint there, you see a scum one.
We're also going to have to disagree on wgeurts; I'm not repeating the case on him because I don't want to lynch him, but it's very very hard to argue he hasn't at the

very least

been scummy, even if town. If you want to criticise Victor for finding wgeurts scummy, criticise everyone else on that wagon.

Now, that said, you're running into the same problem that you failed to address; where's the scum motivation in Victor's actions? I think it's entirely possible Victor justified his vote on wgeurts because "he doesn't want to believe the wagon he's trying to push is incorrect". But isn't it a TOWN thing to want to believe something? Scum already know.

I'm extremely suspicious of what I interpret as a scumslip from Riddleton. I think Riddleton knows Victor is town and possibly built this case on what he found scummy while following the game. Unfortunate, I had high hopes for Silver's slot.

unFoS: Newbie

FoS: this guy

Would be willing to lynch either Constantine or Riddleton as a result.

Edit: That's the word I forgot. The fox in your link, along with Victor, have cases of tunnel vision.

[Riddleton]

Please read this for more information. Victor made a baseless vote against Wgeurts, he invented new reasoning to support his fallacious claim as he goes along, as he doesn't want to believe the wagon he's trying to push is incorrect.

Translation: Victor is scum for tunneling.

Because town never tunnel, huh?

Your case sucks

Except that's actually not my point.

[Wisdom]

Then what is it? Why couldn't have Victor-town acted that way?

[Riddleton]

I've not got the time to respond to the scum motivation parts, MathDino. I'll do that later tonight

[Wisdom]

I'm extremely suspicious of what I interpret as a scumslip from Riddleton. I think Riddleton knows Victor is town and possibly built this case on what he found scummy while following the game. Unfortunate, I had high hopes for Silver's slot.

unFoS: Newbie

FoS: this guy

Would be willing to lynch either Constantine or Riddleton as a result.

I don't like Riddleton much either, but why a "scumslip"? Can't Riddleton be town and think he has caught scum? You're doing the same as Riddleton here.
Also where does the "unfos: newbie" come from?

[Mathdino]

Comes from here, which was a response to Newbie's reads which turned into a mini-case on her. However it's incredibly unlikely to me that Newbie and Silver's slot are both scum, thus my unFoSing.

The scumslip is in that a scum would never "want to believe the wagon he's trying to push is incorrect". Because scum would already KNOW the wagon they're pushing is incorrect. I find it hard to believe Riddleton would say something like that while legitimately believing Victor is scum.
I think Riddleton is scum and accidentally confirmed both Victor and wgeurts as town.

[Mathdino]

As a clarification just in case people still don't get it, I'd be fine if Riddleton was like "Victor is making up reasons to lynch wgeurts because he wants people to think the wagon he started is still correct". But no, Riddleton psychoanalysed Victor and it came out saying Victor is trying to convince himself of something. Which only town does.

[Wisdom]

Yeah, I get what you mean now. Victor would have no reason to convince himself if he was scum, so that makes no sense.

Also I agree that Newbie and Riddleton are probably not scum together, because of how SW and Newbie voted me together earlier in the day.

[acryon]

The general lack of resistance to the Victor wagon makes me nervous. I can't say that I have a strong town-read on him at all, but I think we should be wary of a wagon with little-to-no push-back.

Constantine. I disagree with almost everything he is posting, although I don't necessarily think it's all purely scummy. I do think much of it is, including 720 specifically. That post is

really

bad. Why do you need to tell us why people are scummy? You're no the only experienced player in this game, and it's a little suspect to be "teaching" us what real scum look like. The only reason I see is because you say scum are ABC, and you are acting like XYZ, so of course you aren't scum. Not buying it.

VOTE: Constantine

[Riddleton]

The scumslip is in that a scum would never "want to believe the wagon he's trying to push is incorrect". Because scum would already KNOW the wagon they're pushing is incorrect. I find it hard to believe Riddleton would say something like that while legitimately believing Victor is scum.

You misunderstand; That's speaking hypothetically from Victor's standpoint -- that he's trying to push a wagon on Wgeurts and is desperately looking for reasons why.

[VictorDeAngelo]

Back but tired and kinda pissed. Will read up my games in due course. Sorry for the delay.

[Riddleton]

Victor would have no reason to

convince himself

if he was scum, so that makes no sense.

Victor's not trying to 'convince himself' that Wgeurts is scum, he's trying to 'convince himself' the fake wagon is worth pursuing. You're exactly right in that Victor-scum won't have any motives for trying to convince themselves a wagon is correct, because he would know everyone's alignment.

[Riddleton]

Acryon

, thoughts on my Victor case?

[Wisdom]

But that's what you said, "he doesn't want to believe the wagon he's pushing is incorrect". I remember it because that's what made me think about tunneling.

[Riddleton]

Oh, right, I know which post you're referring to now. I used the wrong words by accident -- the context I wanted to say was what I said similarly in this post. I meant to say 'He doesn't want to believe the wagon he's pushing isn't viable'. Correct was the wrong term there, I meant it in the context of the wagon taking off and leading to a potential mislynch.

I know, I don't really have much of an excuse for this. All I can say is blame my crap wording at 4am. I understand if I'm the lynch today because of that. No hard feelings. If that happens though, I would like to have the chance to put in why I think Mala is scum, too, alongside Victor.

[reinoe]

MOD STUFF

My car wouldn't start this morning because the battery was dead. I left one of the lights on inside. I'm still blaming it on the enemies though because I'm the mod and I have Godlike control over this game.

VOTE COUNT!!!!

Wisdom-
FinnLaw-
wgeurts-VictorDeAngelo, (L-6)
St. Constantine The Hermit-blindmewithscience, Mathdino, wgeurts, Wisdom, acryon (L-2)
Newbie-
Malakittens-
Riddleton-
Not_Mafia-
TellTaleHeart-
VictorDeAngelo-Not_Mafia, St Constantine The Hermit, Riddleton, TellTaleHeart (L-3)
Mathdino-
blindmewithscience-
acryon-

not voting-FinnLaw, malakittens, Newbie

With 13 Alive it's 7 to lynch.

Deadline=(expired on 2014-10-29 07:00:00)

VictorDeAngelo is on indefinite/unspecified V/LA
Riddleton is V/

LA

until 11/5/2014

The nachos at the bowling alley are disgusting!

[Wisdom]

Riddleton remind me what your read on Constantine is?

[reinoe]

Finnlaw is prodded. It was a sour apple, cream cheese, and caramel prod. Delicious!

[Riddleton]

I think Constantine is town. A bit self-important, but town nonetheless.

I don't agree with everything he says, but if you ignore the flavour, you can see his posts are (generally) on the right lines, even if the logic is wrong at times. Would scum come in this game so pompous and confident, yet to be proven wrong with comments like his scumreads post? I don't know, I see that as less likely.

I didn't remember his 580, prolly because I did not care much about reading his posts while he was roleplaying. So I assumed his bullshit about scumtells was just a common newbie mistake. Yet he knows better.

I don't think it's a case of 'He knows better', probably just a case of having played a long time on a different site with different meta and is adjusting as a result.
)

[Riddleton]

He says he is an alt, I believe. I think that's true, and he's not played here on MS much, but just other sites

[Wisdom]

I don't see how that's relevant? In one post he said that scumhunting is all about looking for different motivations and stuff, and in another he says that certain things are scumtells. These two don't go together.

[Riddleton]

I think he means you can scumhunt by motivational analysis & by the generic scumtells, I believe. The 'scumtells' post was brought by him disassembling a case against wgeurts by arguing that some of the arguments presented weren't scumtells, and then he said what he thought were valid scumtells.