Open 572: Nightless Vengeful Mayhem - Game Over

[Not_Mafia]

VC 5.06

Phillammon (1)-

Shaddowez

Shaddowez (0)-

Thor665 (1)-

Dyslexicon

droog (2)-

Fink, Thor665

(L-2)

Fink (0)-

Dyslexicon (0)-

Bert (1)-

Phillammon

Not Voting (2)-

droog, Bert

With

7

alive, it takes

4

to lynch.

Deadline is in

(expired on 2014-11-06 22:00:00)

- Nov 6th 22:00 GMT

[droog]

i still like to think phil is town

So why do you think Phil is town again? And when did you develop this read and how has it been effected by his play leading up to and following Bob's lynch?

(I know I'm being a bit vague here, but could you give a long-ish answer to this please? Not like a page, but maybe a paragraph?)

he's scumhunting
his thoughts look sound to me
nothing you wrote on him was convincing

something early game thoguhts:

Spoiler:

I thought I'd made my stance clear before, but if not:

I'm waiting for Fokem

to get here and Wgeurts to post these reads that were promised before I drop the hammer. This said, I'm not convinced that either one is actually going to happen, so

I am probably going to hammer at some point

in the near future. If only to get us into a new phase

so Thor and Blair can put their money where their collective mouths are.

i liked this
he could have hammered then and waited instead
((perhaps cunning scum appearing town, but this has town motivations))

I confess that I straight up have not been reading some of your banter with Thor more recently, largely because it appears to be going nowhere productive and is taking up a lot of space. Sorry about that.

i like this
he's seemingly not trying too hard
he then gives a half 'youre scum' half 'youre town' read on blair
nothing stellar, could read it as scum

Okay. I'm going to temporarily ignore the Thor/Blair issue to take a proper look at Dyslexicon again, given the wagon seems to be gathering steam.

i really like this
if thor's town, then phil is a distraction from two townies going at it with each other
there is little motive for scum to interrupt that

he then gives a dys case
not much question-asking but that's his style

Okay then. Let's start with my favourite slot, Fink! (I appreciate that I'm tunnelling somewhat, but honestly I've stopped caring)

this is actually odd because a quick ctrl-f
shows that this is the 3rd time fink is mentioned in his posts
but yyr was an early scumread for him and his first vote
null here

Spoiler:

Do a quick Ctrl-F over Fink's ISO for Acryon.

First mention is that Acryon is slightly scummy (from the first 10 pages alone) (#461), which is immediately revised to "dumb but probably town" (#480)

. There's then

no significant mention of Acryon until #721

, by which time, surprise surprise, Acryon is at L-1 (and has been for some time). At which point Fink immediately starts to turn on this previous town-read in the very next post-

I'm not terribly interested in defending Acryon, I think he's a perfectly reasonable lynch candidate.

A perfectly reasonably lynch candidate who, the last time you mentioned them outside of commenting on them being v/la, was "probably town"?

Now, I can appreciate this may well be a "he's at L-1, may as well question him properly" sort of thing- but if that's the case, why not put similar pressure on the person who you've repeatedly stated to be your top scumread, who was also "effectively" at L-1? While we're on that subject, #827 is interesting- if Acryon is town, Phil is definitely scum. If Acryon isn't town, Phil is definitely scum. If you've caught scum, why the hell did you just hammer someone who ISN'T them?

the rest of the post makes a good point
bold is my emphasis
and this good point is (was?)
the crux of my and phil's latter case on fink

since it never got properly addressed, i felt pretty good about it
and the person who made it

He's stretching hard for reasons to find me scummy.

That particular part actualy straight up amuses me, given

I've already made it abundantly clear that I've found you (or rather, your slot) the scummiest player outside of wgeurts, and have backed that up with reasoning before.

The fact that I have MORE reasons to believe that you're scum- particularly your hilarious overrreaction and putting words into my mouth over this very matter- does not help your case, and definitely does not constitute me "not looking for scum".

town

Spoiler:

Phil: Why do you find me more scummy for being the one to hammer? I could have just as easily sit back and let Dys hammer while I kept my vote stubbornly on you. The things you've said about me don't actually relate to my position on the wagon, and I want to hear your thoughts on that.

I don't think you're scummy for hammering, I think you're scummy for pursuing the wagon at all, regardless of where your vote came in the wagon, when you have guaranteed scum in another player and sufficinet players receptive to the lynch to run me up a tree

Phil: Why do you find me more scummy for being the one to hammer? I could have just as easily sit back and let Dys hammer while I kept my vote stubbornly on you. The things you've said about me don't actually relate to my position on the wagon, and I want to hear your thoughts on that.

I don't think you're scummy for hammering, I think you're scummy for pursuing the wagon at all, regardless of where your vote came in the wagon, when you have guaranteed scum in another player and sufficinet players receptive to the lynch to run me up a tree

To add to this, because I somehow forgot, my current prime issue with your pursuit of that wagon:

I think acryon's argument is dumb, but I think it's probably town.

I'm not terribly interested in defending Acryon, I think he's a perfectly reasonable lynch candidate. If anything, I'm hammer-curious myself.

Mentions of acryon between these two posts: 5. Mentions of Acryon that actually used anything Acryon had said or were in fact anything other than asking Acryon to comment on something you'd already said, while he was V/LA: 0.

phil repeats the poin
fink doesnt properly respond

for not backing down
phil is more town

btw

Not technically a PEdit but I didn't see it cause it was on the next page: "Also, you keep saying I'm not scumhunting, but why don't my repeated rereads and comments and cases on Phil, or my questioning of Blair count?"
I'm more than happy to field this question- because rereading me isn't bearing any fruit, even if it was

what you're actually doing is going back and repeatedly taking quotes out of context (this is, incidentally, instrumental to your case on Droog too)

. You keep debating points that have already been done to death, then start throwing out accusations based on people not answering you- more often than not, when they have answered you. Or linked you to the post in which they answered the exact same questions 800 posts ago. Like I am doing. Right at this second.

this is exactly how i see things

__________

im town
anyone thinking like me
is more likely town

[Bert]

Prod dodge...flour and tortillas.

[shaddowez]

@Shaddowez.

Kinda asked you some questions here;
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 3#p6327703

So you did.

Did you think I had a strong read on you?

No, actually the way I took it was that you were moving me into a town read more for liking some of my posts rather than having done anything extremely townie. I'm not entirely sure how that's relevant though, since reversing any read should have some explanation behind it. Let me ask you to look at it the other way:

Assume somebody ("X"), in a post or a reads list, mentions that they think somebody else ("Y") may be scum, but doesn't give a solid reason. "Y" doesn't do much to indicate they're scum, but then for some reason a wagon forms on them. "X" then says they're not going to vote "Y" because they're town. Wouldn't that look a bit odd to you? Why is it different the other way around?

So now that my read has been explained, do you have any thoughts on that?

Not really. You're grasping at straws to build a case, but you're wasting your energy. Unless, of course, you just want to use up all of our mislynches as a good strategy.

[Thor665]

No, actually the way I took it was that you were moving me into a town read more for liking some of my posts rather than having done anything extremely townie.

How did you reach this conclusion?

Assume somebody ("X"), in a post or a reads list, mentions that they think somebody else ("Y") may be scum, but doesn't give a solid reason. "Y" doesn't do much to indicate they're scum, but then for some reason a wagon forms on them. "X" then says they're not going to vote "Y" because they're town. Wouldn't that look a bit odd to you? Why is it different the other way around?

Depends how much time passes between the two moments and all I would do would be to ask them why the read changed, I wouldn't be shocked it changed unless...basically nothing happened between the two points or they were very close together in time.

Not really. You're grasping at straws to build a case, but you're wasting your energy. Unless, of course, you just want to use up all of our mislynches as a good strategy.

I want to use all of our lynches on people I can't read, yeah.

What straws do you think I'm grasping at, I thought I was pretty open about the meaning behind my case. There's no grasp there, it's just a 'you lurk, you hard read, you dead'. It's sort of a perfect case, in a way.

[Phillammon]

I realize it's a tad hypocritical of me to say this, but Bert is still slim-to-no-activity and still scum, as far as I can tell. I'm still pretty sure that droog is town, by process of elimination if by nothing else (though I hasten to add that I do have other reasons for townreading him), and Bert appears to have completely dropped off the radar.

[droog]

Phil do you still think funk scum

[Fink]

nothing you wrote on him was convincing

This is what's been bugging me. Before we lynched Acryon, you had made some comment about being open to the idea of a Phil lynch, then you seemed to get more set on Acryon, then the next day you were agreeing with Phil that not only you but someone who had said they wouldn't would have both been willing to Phil. But at that point you were really hardcore townreading Phil. And I can't help but wonder how much of your read is tied up in me thinking he's scum.

If you are town, you really need to be careful of this thing you've been doing lately where you're so against me that you townread my scumreads and scumread my townreads.

I'll need to think about your answer some more, but thanks for making it.

How do you feel about Bert? You took your vote off him, but pretend I don't exist for a moment. What do you think of him?

[Fink]

Oh, and I thought I already said this somewhere, but connection is suck tonight, anyway:

I really don't understand why going from eh, probably stupid town to not interested in defending somebody because they've done nothing helpful to town, then asking questions and scumhunting them before deciding to vote based on those questions is at all surprising.

Phil and Droog keep coming back to this like it's some big damning point but it's absolutely normal play. You realize someone isn't really doing anything for town, you start questioning them, it doesn't look like your preferred lynch is possible and they give some answers that make you suspicious and others that imply even if they

are

town (and you're thinking less likely than random that that is true) then they will be totally useless to town and a danger to have around at LYLO. So you vote for your non-top scumread. OH MY GOD, OBVSCUM!!!1!

[Fink]

I'm going to be really annoyed if Thor turns out to be scum. It will have meant that people kept independently catching him, but making terrible cases that none of the rest of us could get behind.

That said, I don't like your case on Thor, Shaddowez. What do you think of Bert? What do you think of Droog?

[droog]

This is what's been bugging me. Before we lynched Acryon, you had made some comment about being open to the idea of a Phil lynch, then you seemed to get more set on Acryon, then the next day you were agreeing with Phil that not only you but someone who had said they wouldn't would have both been willing to Phil. But at that point you were really hardcore townreading Phil. And I can't help but wonder how much of your read is tied up in me thinking he's scum.

I really don't understand why going from eh, probably stupid town to not interested in defending somebody because they've done nothing helpful to town, then asking questions and scumhunting them before deciding to vote based on those questions is at all surprising.

these two answer each other
went from null to town
is that surprising?

If you are town, you really need to be careful of this thing you've been doing lately where you're so against me that you townread my scumreads and scumread my townreads.

??????
you say scum phil i say town phil
you say scum bert i said scum bert
you say town thor i say town thor

How do you feel about Bert? You took your vote off him, but pretend I don't exist for a moment. What do you think of him?

more likely to be scum
not most likely

want to look at dys and shaddowez more first

Phil and Droog keep coming back to this like it's some big damning point but it's absolutely normal play. You realize someone isn't really doing anything for town, you start questioning them, it doesn't look like your preferred lynch is possible and they give some answers that make you suspicious and others that imply even if they

are

town (and you're thinking less likely than random that that is true) then they will be totally useless to town and a danger to have around at LYLO. So you vote for your non-top scumread. OH MY GOD, OBVSCUM!!!1!

what frustrates me most
i cant tell if you genuinely misunderstand my arguments
or are intentionally misrepping them

[shaddowez]

No, actually the way I took it was that you were moving me into a town read more for liking some of my posts rather than having done anything extremely townie.

How did you reach this conclusion?

Probably mild points for Shaddow too, though I dislike most of his conclusions and reasoning.

I'm actually leaning town on Shadow - if he's scum he's flying totally under my radar.

Mostly the way I interpreted those quotes.

Assume somebody ("X"), in a post or a reads list, mentions that they think somebody else ("Y") may be scum, but doesn't give a solid reason. "Y" doesn't do much to indicate they're scum, but then for some reason a wagon forms on them. "X" then says they're not going to vote "Y" because they're town. Wouldn't that look a bit odd to you? Why is it different the other way around?

Depends how much time passes between the two moments and

all I would do would be to ask them why the read changed

, I wouldn't be shocked it changed unless...basically nothing happened between the two points or they were very close together in time.

I'm actually interested in what made you change your read of me, considering you had a town read on me in 955. The best guess I have is that I've been focusing on your "town reads", and you're trying to divert attention from the Phil wagon on to me.

I added in a

guess

, but didn't feel strongly enough about it to try and make a case or call you scum. How is that much different than what you're saying you would do?

Not really. You're grasping at straws to build a case, but you're wasting your energy. Unless, of course, you just want to use up all of our mislynches as a good strategy.

I want to use all of our lynches on people I can't read, yeah.

What straws do you think I'm grasping at, I thought I was pretty open about the meaning behind my case. There's no grasp there, it's just a 'you lurk, you hard read, you dead'. It's sort of a perfect case, in a way.

So just to be clear, what you're saying is just because you can't read me, you think I'm scum?

I'm going to be really annoyed if Thor turns out to be scum. It will have meant that people kept independently catching him, but making terrible cases that none of the rest of us could get behind.

That said, I don't like your case on Thor, Shaddowez. What do you think of Bert? What do you think of Droog?

I'm okay with you not liking it, because I'm not making a case on Thor? He voted me, I addressed that vote, we've been having a discussion - I still don't think he's scum, I'm just trying to figure out his thoughts and motivations.

I don't like Bert. At all. I've never liked the slot, and have said something similar a few times. I'm tired of that slot just coming in, making a few useless posts (or in the case of DCL, making a bunch of posts and then not following through), and not interacting much with the game. As a matter of fact,
VOTE: Bert

I'm still unsure about Droog, though I'm leaning scum on him. You make some compelling arguments, but then again he's making some decent ones as well. He still hasn't done anything inherently scummy, but his defense of Phil, along with the fact it seems impossible to actually lynch Phil, give me some pause.

[Thor665]

I'm actually interested in what made you change your read of me, considering you had a town read on me in 955. The best guess I have is that I've been focusing on your "town reads", and you're trying to divert attention from the Phil wagon on to me.

I added in a

guess

, but didn't feel strongly enough about it to try and make a case or call you scum. How is that much different than what you're saying you would do?

I suppose my answer is that I rather disliked the guess - it felt antagonistic and reactive. You went from 'why did you change a read?' to 'Thor is scum trying to divert to protect scumbuddy Phil.'

That was like 0 to 100 in .5 seconds.

[droog]

I'm leaning scum on him. You make some compelling arguments, but then again he's making some decent ones as well. He still hasn't done anything inherently scummy, but his defense of Phil, along with the fact it seems impossible to actually lynch Phil, give me some pause.

you're (half) committing to a position without committing to the reasoning
which arguments of fink's?
why does my phil defense give you pause?

[Fink]

these two answer each other
went from null to town
is that surprising?

I wasn't calling you scummy for your change in reads on Phil at all. I think you're scum, but that's not part of it.
I was saying that if you are town, I think you're playing terribly because you seemed to be townreading Phil largely because I was going after him. My post was about a larger trend, telling you that if you are town, you need to stop being so single-minded.

I'm not certain of you, or Phil, or Bert. I'm not certain of anything. I don't think any of us should be. As I said, I

know

I'm wrong about one of you (and I can't be sure it's only one). I'm trying to figure out which one, but in a moment of giving you the benefit of the doubt, I pointed out that if you are town, you should not let the tunnel vision blind you.

I'm not surprised you changed your read on Phil. Why would I be? But I am surprised you took that as me throwing you on the scum pile, rather than in the spirit in which I intended it. I think that comes from a scum psychology which is not imagining any doubt from those who have "caught" them that they might actually be town, even when we have doubts.

[Fink]

@Shaddowez

I want to second and elaborate on Droog's question. Do you think you could put Droog and I in ISO, maybe skip forward to the start of Day 4 or so, and read us together in isolation? I want to know what parts of what each of us said you agree or disagree with. Doesn't have to be a big quote wall, but could you just like keep a list of points either of us has said that you agree with or think need more commentary?

I'm leaning scum on him. You make some compelling arguments, but then again he's making some decent ones as well. He still hasn't done anything inherently scummy, but his defense of Phil, along with the fact it seems impossible to actually lynch Phil, give me some pause.

you're (half) committing to a position without committing to the reasoning
which arguments of fink's?
why does my phil defense give you pause?

[Phillammon]

Phil and Droog keep coming back to this like it's some big damning point but it's absolutely normal play. You realize someone isn't really doing anything for town, you start questioning them, it doesn't look like your preferred lynch is possible and they give some answers that make you suspicious and others that imply even if they

are

town (and you're thinking less likely than random that that is true) then they will be totally useless to town and a danger to have around at LYLO. So you vote for your non-top scumread. OH MY GOD, OBVSCUM!!!1!

Some of what you say here isn't the case anymore. Most of what you say was NEVER the case, and you have been misrepresenting or misinterpreting from the start. Please don't.

Droog, yes, yes I do, though I will grant that I'm less certain than I was.

[Not_Mafia]

VC 5.07

Phillammon (0)-

Shaddowez (0)-

Thor665 (1)-

Dyslexicon

droog (2)-

Fink, Thor665

(L-2)

Fink (0)-

Dyslexicon (0)-

Bert (2)-

Phillammon, Shaddowez

(L-2)

Not Voting (2)-

droog, Bert

With

7

alive, it takes

4

to lynch.

Deadline is in

(expired on 2014-11-06 22:00:00)

- Nov 6th 22:00 GMT

[Fink]

Some of what you say here isn't the case anymore. Most of what you say was NEVER the case, and you have been misrepresenting or misinterpreting from the start. Please don't.

You're the one misrepresenting here. You keep coming back to my read "changing" from "eh, town with a dumb case" to "viable lynch candidate" over a good period of time.

And you were the one making up facts about my ability to get you lynched on Day 3, you still haven't clarified that even though I've gone into exhaustive detail. You just keep repeating that you don't believe me.

[droog]

I was saying that if you are town, I think you're playing terribly because you seemed to be townreading Phil largely because I was going after him. My post was about a larger trend, telling you that if you are town, you need to stop being so single-minded.

i did not townread him because you scumread him
i townread him because he scumread you

[droog]

If you are town, you really need to be careful of this thing you've been doing lately where you're so against me that you townread my scumreads and scumread my townreads.

you make it sound much more dramatic than it is
and as though it wasnt one case (that you misinterpreted)

[Bert]

Prod dodge...tortillas with flour.

Happy H'ween everyone.

[shaddowez]

Fink and droog - I'll get to your questions, but probably not until the next Day as I won't have time before tomorrow night.

Prod dodge...tortillas with flour.

Happy H'ween everyone.

Deadline is tomorrow night, you haven't posted anything useful in forever, and you're prod dodging? Wow

[shaddowez]

Sorry, had my deadlines mixed up. Still, not happy with another dodge from this slot

[Fink]

VOTE: Bert

That's L-1

I'm still thinking Droog is scum, but we're going to need a lynch and you've spent the entire long day prod dodging and giving a couple one-liners earlier in the day. I want to talk Droog with Shaddowez tomorrow, but yeah, he's a hell of a lot more useful than you, and he's given us a lot more to look through.

Bert's slot is scummy from DCXVI and slightly from Bins IMO. And Bert is very much giving us nothing to look at so we can't build much of a case. And he's been active elsewhere on site. Scum should not be allowed to get away with this level of turbo lurking.