Newbie 1546: Binary Trolls (Game Over!)

[Luca Blight]

Nether, you say Toffee 'doesn't make sense' as scum, does the same not apply to Shiro?

Why is Shiro's play scummy but Toffee's not?
Why did you say you think it was a mistake lynching Shiro in post post 444, despite leading the wagon on Shiro?

[Luca Blight]

First of all, I'd like to hear from BlueBloodedToffee as if I got his intentions correctly it's time for him to post now.
And if I was wrong then his actions just make no sense at all from any perspective.

Why is it only important you understand correctly now? Why wasn't it important before?

Surely this is quite an important point as you seem to be basing your entire read of him based on this?

[Netherspite]

If you didn't skim through my posts you would already know the answers.

1. He does not make sense as town either. His play was looking completely insane from any perspective but one.
And I'm going to see now if I was right about that perspective I'm talking about.

2. Shiro's play wasn't insane, his play was rather scummy. He attempted to adjust his play later and that was making it even more scummy: while BlueBloodedToffee kept doing the same thing as he was obviously knowing what he's doing, Shiro looked like trying to fake townplay using advices from others and adjusting his play after being pointed out.

3. As I said, I had

gut feeling

that his lynch is a mistake. And since in my previous game I had same feeling and it made me lynching the wrong guy instead of the one I initially considered scum (and who

was

scum for real) I promised myself to never repeat this mistake. So I'll keep my vote on Shiro.

PEdit:

Yes, this point is important and I'd like to hear from him to understand whether I was right or not.
But it's him who have to say it.

[Luca Blight]

I can't get rid of the feeling that lynching Shiro is a mistake.

However, previous time I allowed myself to ignore the initial suspect and look for more deep and hidden motivations than there really were, it ended up with a mislynch of the wrong guy. So this time I'll stick with my initial suspect. I prefer logic over gut feelings after all.

The bolded is the scummiest thing I have read so far in this entire game.

VOTE: Nether

A rare time I agree with Toffee.

This does look like a scum-tell, given Nether is actually leading the way for Shiro to be lynched at this point. Not just the highlighted part, the whole post is complete fluff, no conviction at all.

[Netherspite]

Gosh, I was sharing my thoughts and feelings.
I'm being transparent since the beginning of the game.
If we'll have fifth player in this game considering it a scum tell then go ahead and hammer me now, you deserve a lose for such terrible play.

[Luca Blight]

If you didn't skim through my posts you would already know the answers.

1. He does not make sense as town either. His play was looking completely insane from any perspective but one.
And I'm going to see now if I was right about that perspective I'm talking about.

2. Shiro's play wasn't insane, his play was rather scummy. He attempted to adjust his play later and that was making it even more scummy: while BlueBloodedToffee kept doing the same thing as he was obviously knowing what he's doing, Shiro looked like trying to fake townplay using advices from others and adjusting his play after being pointed out.

3. As I said, I had

gut feeling

that his lynch is a mistake. And since in my previous game I had same feeling and it made me lynching the wrong guy instead of the one I initially considered scum (and who

was

scum for real) I promised myself to never repeat this mistake. So I'll keep my vote on Shiro.

PEdit:

Yes, this point is important and I'd like to hear from him to understand whether I was right or not.
But it's him who have to say it.

1. So what point were you trying to make, then? You criticised Tool earlier for seeing both town and scum motivation behind your play, but preferring one over the other, but you're a hypocrite because you're the doing the exact same here.

2. I have also seen scumminess in Shiro's play, but I don't see how you can differentiate so much between the two. If you think scum are unlikely to play as Toffee has done, you should feel the same about Shiro, as they are both attracting attention towards themselves unnecessarily.

3. So you're post was completely useless, then? What good is it trying to push a wagon you admit to believing is a 'mistake'?

Why is it only important now, though? Because you are on L-1, and you are seeing if he will slip up and potentially draw a quick wagon on himself?

[Netherspite]

1. The difference is I don't see

any

sane motivation behind his behavior except the single one. And we'll see soon whether it is correct or not.
2. Shiro and BlueBloodedToffee are playing completely different. While the former is

trying hard

to look townier, the latter does not care about it and does something you don't see yet (or he is completely insane, if I'm wrong about him).
3. I don't trust gut feelings because single time I did it it was terribly wrong. I prefer operating with logic.
No, not really. It's important for another reason.

[Luca Blight]

Gosh, I was sharing my thoughts and feelings.
I'm being transparent since the beginning of the game.
If we'll have fifth player in this game considering it a scum tell then go ahead and hammer me now, you deserve a lose for such terrible play.

Yeah, and this post is such brilliant town play, isn't it.

[Netherspite]

This post is just stating the obvious fact that lynching someone who is being transparent, active and open for the whole game is a stupid thing.
If he's scum you'll learn it anyway later and if he's town you're losing someone who is contributing a lot into the town win.

[Netherspite]

Anyway, I'm waiting for the BlueBloodedToffee to complete the picture and post the whole analysis for town to use tomorrow.

[Luca Blight]

This post is just stating the obvious fact that lynching someone who is being transparent, active and open for the whole game is a stupid thing.
If he's scum you'll learn it anyway later and if he's town you're losing someone who is contributing a lot into the town win.

You seem to now be assuming I am Town, whereas before I was merely a 'null' read of yours that you noted you were unsure of, saying I 'could be scum'.

Lynching the person you described wouldn't be so stupid from a scum perspective, would it?

How do I know you're genuinely being 'transparent'? You could be lying about everything you say for all I know. You are indeed active, but mafia can be active too. I'm not sure I agree you are contributing 'a lot' to the 'town win', because I think a lot of your posts are mainly fluff. You have been very cautious and indecisive around the wagons, which isn't particularly helpful for the Town.

[Netherspite]

I was talking mainly to the whole town, not to you in that post.
And yes, I don't see town motivation behind your vote.

Whether player is genuinely transparent or lying can be seen way easier later because it's way more hard to speak that much and not get caught on lies.
So from town PoV lynching someone who plays like me is stupid thing.
Also, most of my posts contained way less fluff than many others. I've posted more useful content than anyone else in total.
And I'm not indecisive around the wagons, I'm having my opinion and vote accordingly.

I don't see what are you trying to achieve with this argument to be honest.
If you're town your whole vote and reasoning behind it are not making sense.
If you're scum then you already pretty sure that you want to lynch townie so why asking me?
Or are you trying to justify your vote to look less scummy tomorrow in that case?

[Luca Blight]

You don't see what I'm trying to achieve with this argument?

I was questioning you on certain issues to make sure of my read with mere hours to go until lynch deadline. Unfortunately all you could provide in return was criticism of the Town for suspecting you because you have been active, which is terrible reasoning.

My reasoning for voting you makes perfect sense, but you seem to consider yourself above suspicion. You seem to have given up on me switching my vote at any rate, so perhaps it is best to end this here.

[Netherspite]

I'm never trying hard to make myself less suspicious. My win condition is to find the scum, not to survive myself.
If it takes my lynch for the people to realize that I was saying the truth - so be it.
But before hammer happens, I'd like to provide all the information town needs to win this game without me.
And to do so, I still need BlueBloodedToffee to post.

[Netherspite]

And no, your reasoning for the vote looks made out of nowhere. You repeat others' words and make precautions to not look scummy for joining a wagon on townie.
I really hope you're just townie who is wrong because otherwise my reads on you for the whole D1 are wrong and it's my fault I didn't notice it earlier.

[Luca Blight]

And no, your reasoning for the vote looks made out of nowhere. You repeat others' words and make precautions to not look scummy for joining a wagon on townie.
I really hope you're just townie who is wrong because otherwise my reads on you for the whole D1 are wrong and it's my fault I didn't notice it earlier.

Hardly out of nowhere, when I posted my deliberations over the three potential wagons on the other page. I wasn't 'repeating others' words' (back to that old misrepping habit again), I agreed couple of points Tool made, and added further reasons for suspicion before casting my vote.

This whole Toffee things sticks out to me; you read him as Town on the other page 'if you understand correctly' his meaning behind one of his posts, but didn't think it was important at the time to discover if you were right in your interpretation. You are then put at L-1, and suddenly everything rests on this vital piece of information, which is only vital because it seemingly might save you from a lynch.

That seems survivalist to me. I don't see why, as such a supposedly 'pro-town' player, you wouldn't have questioned this earlier, because your whole read of Toffee appears to hinge on it.

[Netherspite]

As soon as he'll post I'll explain it and you'll see that it's more like contributing very important thing for the town win rather than my own survival.
This can cause my own survival as well though. But I don't really care about it.

Funny enough you're attempting to represent me as survivalistic while I was being the opposite during the entire game.

Also, please quote a single point you made about me being scummy that was not repeating of others' words?

[Luca Blight]

Also, please quote a single point you made about me being scummy that was not repeating of others' words?

I will have a look back in the morning through all the reasoning, but I would appreciate a condensed version right here so we know where we stand.

Posts #311 and #603 both summarize my case against Nether. The most important bits are:

1. Nether's vote on TGGC in #267 looks like him pulling out a reason to vote TGGC after he's already made up his mind to vote that slot.
2. His back-up reasoning for his vote in #274 seems shallow and looks like something scum would do to shore up their reasoning for a vote because they're afraid they look bad.

Yep, you've kind of summarised my own reasons for doubting Nether, having initially townread him. For someone who has posted a lot, much of it hasn't been terribly productive, and he was very tentative around the Carli/TGGC wagon, and I agree that his voting and backing up of his vote was a bit suspect. Another thing that has caught my eye with Nether is his passive attitude towards a wagon being built up on him, which seems to have coincided with him scumreading Shiro.

After TGGC claimed Doc there was a post by Nether saying he 'hated' all the votes on that wagon, apart from his. Why did he not say this at the time, and why join a wagon filled with 'bad' votes? He has been cautious with his reading of me as well, which makes me feel he is possibly lining up my lynch further own the road, saying I 'could be scum', and then saying he needs my answer to which wagon I'll be voting to make a decision on me, which doesn't sit right. Shiro and Toffee have given me more reason to vote them, and in an ideal world it would just be a simple as lynching the obvious ones, but I've learnt that it is rarely the obvious ones who are Mafia. I am going to take a punt on this.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Netherspite

L-1

Pretty much that entire paragraph.

Happy to help.

[Netherspite]

This paragraph contains obvious lie.
I said I hated all the votes on that wagon apart from Toolenduso. And mine obviously because I wouldn't make I vote if I hated it.
I've explained the reasons I joined the wagon. Also I didn't look at who was at this wagon because I didn't consider it serious before I understood why Carli was scummy myself. And only later when I performed a VCA I found out that 3 out of 5 votes were weird.

So basically your point consists of:
1. obvious lie
2. a single genuine observation that was weak on its own.
3. a senseless idea that we should vote those who does not look scummy just because the obvious scum is not scum.

Not very convincing.
And you think that I'll take your vote seriously?...

[Luca Blight]

There was no lie, and I find it ironic how you can accuse anyone of lying given all the misrepping you have done this game.

Why wouldn't you take my vote seriously? If I was Town, on L-1, and someone was pushing a vote on me, I would be taking it seriously and trying to establish the reason for the vote, looking to counter them, while trying to find possible clues as to the player's alignment. Even though you you are saying you think I 'could be scum', this interaction is one where it feels to me like you already know I am Town. If you were genuinely Town and suspected I could be scum, why wouldn't you take it seriously? It doesn't make sense.

Regarding point 2, it is not on it's own though, is it? You are considering it in isolation, when it is one of many reasons.
Point 3: You are contradicting yourself, having said yourself it doesn't make sense for Toffee to be scum due to his obvious anti-town play (and then later undermined your own point by saying it doesn't make sense from a Town perspective either).

[Netherspite]

To be honest, I hate all those votes except for

toolenduso

's vote may be. And except mine, obviously.

After TGGC claimed Doc there was a post by Nether saying he 'hated' all the votes on that wagon, apart from his.

So you're refusing to admit that you obviously lied?
I'll post those quotes then for everyone since I don't believe that you genuinely just forgot what I really posted after I pointed out it is lie.
Why are you lying? Are you scum?

Regarding point 2, it is the only point made by yourself that would make sense if I didn't refute it.

Regarding point 3, you're trying hard to misrepresent me, yet I won't let you.
I'm not voting BlueBloodedToffee, I'm not saying he's scum, so why would I hesitate to undermine my own point by a further observation? I correct my own observations using newly noticed facts, this is how you play this game.
I'm not contradicting myself either. Shiro's actions make sense from scum perspective while BlueBloodedToffee actions make no sense from any perspective besides one (town-aligned by the way) and I'm waiting for him to either confirm my thoughts or not.

[Luca Blight]

Ok, you said 'except maybe Toolenduso's', which I interpret as not liking his vote either, but perhaps not 'hating' it.

Do you really consider that a 'lie'? Does that mean all the numerous times you have misrepped me this game (of which I have given you the benefit of the doubt as genuine errors) have been lies as well?

The fact you are trying to press that on me looks desperate.

[Netherspite]

Why would I be desperate?
As I said, I don't care whether I will get lynched or not. The only thing I care about is the town victory.
Thus, I'm trying to get as much information as I can and to pass it to the town.
Pressing you was a good option to get more reaction from you and thus more information for the town.
As I mentioned, I consider you a null read and thus you can be scum we need to find.

Also, your interpretation of my words was wrong.
I never said I don't like his vote.
And if you was genuinely wrong about it, why didn't you say that it was just wrong interpretation when I told that you're lying? Didn't you revisit my post? Didn't you re-read that phrase? Why?

[Luca Blight]

You hate the other votes, 'except maybe' Tool's. Does that mean you liked his vote? What does it mean?

I knew exactly what you said, I didn't feel the need to mention it because that was my interpretation, as I said. The fact you are getting so defensive over that particular issue, branding me a 'liar' is quite telling, however.

If you're going to keep arguing about this point then don't bother as it's going nowhere. If you want me to change my vote then try and build a better case on your scumread, Shiro.

[Shiro]

Nobody is taking my view on VDA seriously which makes me sad :/