Open 577: Hope Plus One! (GAME OVER - SCUM WIN)

[theelkspeaks]

Vote Count 1.4
With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch

Gravity(1)

- notreallygood

Mathdino (3)

- St. Constantine the Hermit, Cane + Able, Rudolph the Reindeer

copper223 (1)

- texcat

blindmewithscience (1)

- copper223

EDITED to fix one mistake.

[theelkspeaks]

An unspecified player corrected the vote count with an alt, by accident. The correction has been made, and the post was deleted. Since it contained no content, this is perfectly fine.

[Cane + Able]

Rudolph, what is your take on our slot?

-House

[St Constantine the Hermit]

@Cane - Gut reads are the ones I'm most confident in. I'm fine if you don't town read me. I have nothing to prove but who's scum.

[Rudolph the Reindeer]

Rudolph, what is your take on our slot?

-House

I townread your slot based on this solid post by Wake. It's good analysis and very much in-sync with my thought process thus far.

[Cane + Able]

Rudolph, what is your take on our slot?

-House

I townread your slot based on this solid post by Wake. It's good analysis and very much in-sync with my thought process thus far.

Which is ironic, because I feel like dead weight this game. I've only posted about 3 or 4 times iirc. A bit too much on my plate atm with the new hospital job & training. I can make some damned good posts and reads, but I'm not really able to post frequently for now. Once I get a feel for my clinical shift pattern I'll be feeling more confident. Thanks anyways for the compliment.

- Wake

[Mathdino]

copper has a good point to be made on BMWS, but I know he's been busy lately so I'm gonna wait until he has more time in order to make a decision on him.

I feel like acryon's latest post would be reworded like hell if it was scum. "there is never going to be traction for a Pastro lynch", "controversial nature of my read". Overall it seems like honest town.

NRG's Gravity vote seems a bit out of place, I feel like it's possibly tunnelfuel (as in, Gravity responds with something that NRG will find even scummier, cycle goes on). Can someone link us to you 2 played together?

Rudolph isn't doing much for his slot tbh. You are aware, Rudy, that I spent a few pages arguing with Constantine and C+A because 1. I had nothing better to do, and 2. I felt like he fundamentally wasn't understanding my point? The moment people started flooding in, I've been providing content. You're not looking at the context.
Also, Constantine pisses me off, so sorry about that.

[Rudolph the Reindeer]

NRG's Gravity vote seems a bit out of place, I feel like it's possibly tunnelfuel (as in, Gravity responds with something that NRG will find even scummier, cycle goes on). Can someone link us to you 2 played together?

...Which I have already said.

Rudolph isn't doing much for his slot tbh. You are aware, Rudy, that I spent a few pages arguing with Constantine and C+A because 1. I had nothing better to do, and 2. I felt like he fundamentally wasn't understanding my point? The moment people started flooding in, I've been providing content. You're not looking at the context.
Also, Constantine pisses me off, so sorry about that.

I don't care much for your excuses to your arguing. It should be said that they're pointless and serve no purpose to this game; save your vendettas on Constantine and other players for outside the game. There has been very little content provided between the fluff.

The fact you tell me "I'm not doing much for my slot", when I've only made 3 posts in this game, is quite the hasty generalisation. Save your reads on my slot to later; no one can be efficiently read from 3 posts.

[Mathdino]

Right, I understand, that's why I apologised for that multiple times.
My point is, that stopped immediately when the game became more than me/Constantine/C+A and you can see that if you read from when I think texcat checked in and RVS'd. Nothing since then's been fluff.
However during the me/Constantine/C+A stuff, there was no content to provide. C+A was town to me, and Constantine is Constantine.

I just found your read on me to be out-of-context and the read on Constantine to be not really helpful. And people CAN be read from 3 posts, just as easily as from 200. But hey, let's get your reads:
Whatcha think of texcat?
Whatcha think of BMWS?
Whatcha think of copper?

[acryon]

Aneninien and Acryon, would you be so willing to provide me with examples of your town and scum games? I find you two difficult to read so would like examples of your previous games. Pretty please?

It might just be easier for you to check my wiki. I've got links to all of my completed and ongoing games on there

[Rudolph the Reindeer]

Right, people can be read from 3 posts, but not as effectively as someone with more. A low sample size isn't scientifically rigorous. We'll agree to disagree with regards to your fluff posting.

To answer your questions, I think the three are town. I think I would feel better if people like Copper stopped using out-of-date 'scumtells' such as IIOA, but that's a minor pet peeve.

[Cane + Able]

Right, people can be read from 3 posts, but not as effectively as someone with more. A low sample size isn't scientifically rigorous. We'll agree to disagree with regards to your fluff posting.

To answer your questions, I think the three are town. I think I would feel better if people like Copper stopped using out-of-date 'scumtells' such as IIOA, but that's a minor pet peeve.

Why do you consider IIoA out-of-date?

Are you a hydra?

If so, who are your heads?

[Rudolph the Reindeer]

IIoA hasn't been a valid scumtell in years. Nor has anything on the wiki been a scumtell for a long time, either. It's a cycle: Certain scummy actions become more popular among scum. It gets documented, either on the wiki or elsewhere. The scummy action will decline in use, because it is known and scum wouldn't want to be caught using it.

Many newbies to Mafiascum read the wiki and treat it as the Holy Gospel, and start to look for scum using these outdated scumtells such as IIOA, ATE among others. That's an incorrect way of thinking, in my opinion.

I am not a hydra.

[Aneninen]

For Aneninen, I'd like him to elaborate his comments. For example, why were Pastro's posts contentless? Which part did you agree with post 123?

Where was the content in Pastro's posts? You too posted that he's null.
As for 123: town blocks are terrible (if they're not forming themselves "naturally"). BWMS might have townslipped, but it's a minor one, though. (It can be faked too.) So, it was over-reacted by some. Policy Lynches are bad.
Any other questions?

@Rudolph.
Here are my town games:

Spoiler:

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=58001 – my first Newbie. I was terrible on Day1, bad on Day2. I literally solved the game by Day3 but noone cared because of my first two Days.
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=58191 – I loved this one. We were good but the scums were better. That's Mafia. ^_^
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=58243 – if there were a Worst Town Performance Award, I'd nominate myself with this game. Most probably I'd win.
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=58816 – a kind of okay performance here. I was slow-moving but fortunately, Bert finished my half-baked case and won the game for us.
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=58767 – I replaced into a terrible slot, 100% misread the whole setup, but in the end I managed to turn everything to my advantage!

I have two abandoned games too but I don't think they'd tell you much.

I'd eagerly show you my scum games if I had any. But nothing, null, zilch. Ask me a year later or something like that, random f-cks me all the time.

Why did you ask Acryon and me anyway?

To answer your questions, I think the three are town. I think I would feel better if people like Copper stopped using out-of-date 'scumtells' such as IIOA, but that's a minor pet peeve.

Am I the only one who thinks that it's strange to get so solid reads so early?

IIoA hasn't been a valid scumtell in years. Nor has anything on the wiki been a scumtell for a long time, either. It's a cycle: Certain scummy actions become more popular among scum. It gets documented, either on the wiki or elsewhere. The scummy action will decline in use, because it is known and scum wouldn't want to be caught using it.

Huh? I disagree.
First of all, scums don't do everything

intentionally

. Second, I simply don't believe in things like "scum fashion". If that existed, it would be very easy to catch scums, wouldn't it?

[Rudolph the Reindeer]

Hi Aneninen! Can I call you 'Anen' for short?

Regarding your most recent posts, you sound shy. You shouldn't be too hard on yourself with your playstyle. I'm sure it's fine! As for why I asked, I asked you and Acryon specifically because I find you two the hardest to read in this game. I don't know why; that's my fallacy as a human being.

Am I the only one who thinks that it's strange to get so solid reads so early?

Why do you think it's strange to have townreads early?

Huh? I disagree.
First of all, scums don't do everything intentionally. Second, I simply don't believe in things like "scum fashion". If that existed, it would be very easy to catch scums, wouldn't it?

Of course scum don't do

everything

intentionally; that's the point. Once certain actions start to get associated with scum, they will thus be more self-conscious of this behaviour and hence it will decline. It's because of this that we can't catch scum easily. People change and evolve. For the most part, it's best not to think about general 'scumtells' such as IIOA but to rather analyse each post in context and see how that fits into the game.

Does it make sense? What's the motivation in making this post?

.

Actually, you've proven my point by that post: we can't catch scum easily. If there was a golden list of rules, carved in stone, passed through generations upon generations as to what constitutes scummy behaviour, then we would have solved this game by now! As you and I both know, that isn't the case. Most scummy behaviour is completely situational and circumstantial, and that's how you'll end up catching scum.

[copper223]

Not much to comment on from a gameplay standpoint so I will reply to Rudolph

Profiling is used to catch criminals IRL but must be absolutely incorrect when applied to mafia? I just finished a game where a player replaced into a mafia slot and since town was already at each others throat proceeded to mark time by summing up what each player did instead of analyzing the game. It's even funnier because your argument on Dino is actually based on IIoA, but from the way you write I think you believe what you are saying so I don't find it alignment indicative.

Depending on why C+A asked you about it, I could see that as town motivated if it was a question about Dino's case or null if it was just curiosity.

Didn't get much from Aneninen, will re-read when I have more time but null for now.

Newbie should tell us how the game is going.

[notreallygood]

I'm sorry for not making it clear about my case on Gravity. In post 189, I actually tried to give some hints when I was giving my reads on Pastro, but I wanted to avoid redundancy. Now, I'll restate the whole case.

@Gravity

Arguments

1. You suspected Pastro for his following of Math with the exact same reasoning he used, but I'd like you to know that their motives were different.

For Pastro: In 119, He dismissed BMWS' reason of voting Constantine because "that's not a legitimate reason", and in the subsequent post he said the same thing to Constantine, but he had no idea that both of those were joke votes, considering that he wrote in a serious tone. This suggests that he was actually serious when he posted.

For Math: In 55, he asked a rhetorical question and used a very playful word (Ninja'd), so it's highly probable that he was just joking around when he posted.

So it isn't scummy for Pastro to use the same reasons as Math's, as their intentions were different.

2. A number of people happen to have the same opinions. For example, most of us agree that town blocks are unnecessary because people will be grouped together as the game goes on, and policy lynches are ill-advised. So, are we also scummy because of having the same reasons as one another's?

Meta

I'm not suspecting your eagerness to push the ones you regard as scummy. I'm talking about how such act contradicts your meta in previous games. You used to show a relatively careful approach towards your suspects even if you were feeling confident, and you wouldn't repeat why they were scummy. But in this game, you're the total opposite of who you were. You repeated your reasons of voting Pastro in 128 and 196. All these feel really scummy to me.

[acryon]

Arguments

1. You suspected Pastro for his following of Math with the exact same reasoning he used, but I'd like you to know that their motives were different.

For Pastro: In 119, He dismissed BMWS' reason of voting Constantine because "that's not a legitimate reason", and in the subsequent post he said the same thing to Constantine, but he had no idea that both of those were joke votes, considering that he wrote in a serious tone. This suggests that he was actually serious when he posted.

For Math: In 55, he asked a rhetorical question and used a very playful word (Ninja'd), so it's highly probable that he was just joking around when he posted.

So it isn't scummy for Pastro to use the same reasons as Math's, as their intentions were different.

2. A number of people happen to have the same opinions. For example, most of us agree that town blocks are unnecessary because people will be grouped together as the game goes on, and policy lynches are ill-advised. So, are we also scummy because of having the same reasons as one another's?

Maybe I am misunderstanding you here, but I would come to the opposite conclusion. Doesn't the fact that Mathdino may have been joking and Pastro followed it make Pastro look worse? Like he was jumping on something that he thought was legitimate to appear town, but he just screwed up and jumped on a non-serious case?

As for your point 2, I think there is a big difference between opinions on a player and their actions within the context of this game, and opinions on general mafia game play.

[notreallygood]

Maybe I am misunderstanding you here, but I would come to the opposite conclusion. Doesn't the fact that Mathdino may have been joking and Pastro followed it make Pastro look worse? Like he was jumping on something that he thought was legitimate to appear town, but he just screwed up and jumped on a non-serious case?

As for your point 2, I think there is a big difference between opinions on a player and their actions within the context of this game, and opinions on general mafia game play.

The point I'm trying to make is that Math and Pastro's attitudes towards the joke votes were different, and therefore it's reasonable for each of them to use the same reasons. On top of that, since Math was basically joking in post 55, it isn't taken into consideration of the procedures of this game. To put it more simply, Pastro still had the "copyright"(for the lack of a better word) of using those reasons.

For my point 2, a better example would be the reads between players, but my mind went blank when I tried to come up with that.

[notreallygood]

Oh, and there's also one more thing.

The fact that Pastro went serious in two subsequent posts may suggest that he wasn't conscious of Math's posts. If he'd wanted to jump on something he thought was legit to appear town, he wouldn't have done it twice in a row. That means he didn't know Math had given the same reasons he used after all.

[copper223]

@NRTG
what's your read of Acryon?

[notreallygood]

Acryon had an acceptable start, giving thoughts on the things going on. However, he occasionally went off-topic, talking about theories and making personal one-liners. And I'm afraid that I can't agree with his reads on House. The fact that House keeps telling everyone how they need to play the game shows that he's a person who wants to take the initative and cares about the game. But Acryon has done his best to answer questions and come up with detailed reads, such answering Math's questions and explaining why he doesn't regard non-game content as scummy, which I appreciate. He's leaning town.

[notreallygood]

I'm trying my best to come up with a complete analysis but I'm afraid I can't. I'm going to have serious business to deal with very soon and I won't have time to come to this site. I'll give my best effort.

[copper223]

@NRG
It's interesting for you to quote that which means this talk isn't affecting your read because I'm kind of reading Acryon and Gravity as likely the same alignment, same opener, minor buddying... so I was expecting a leaning scum from you given your read of Gravity, either you haven't factored it in yet or there is something off with your reads, need to hear more reads from you to decide what's more likely.

[texcat]

Constantine, is your vote on Mathdino still a policy lynch?