Open 577: Hope Plus One! (GAME OVER - SCUM WIN)

[Cane + Able]

I don't care about that.

The point is that 3G calls Mr E.B.O.N.Y. 'bad town' and then says he has a scumread on him. This would indicate that he's voting him for being bad town in his eyes, not because he thinks he's scum.

That's not at all how I read it.

GGG says that voting lurkers is

at least

bad town. As in, best case scenario. So a lean scum would make sense if GGG has more reason to suspect what's-his-name than simply voting a lurker.

[GGG]

Yeah, I'm really not seeing what C+A and copper are. 3G's reads list was pretty scummy, and I still think the as of yet unaddressed "Day 3/4 once the low posters have some content I can see going after them but day 1 is at least bad town. Lean scum" is a scumslip.

Can anyone townreading 3G explain said townread? Cause I'm not seeing it.

@Anienyanonenanynonunquestionmarkoneninhallwaythingymous: Can you respond to the questions I asked you last page? Post 313.

And yeah, I forgot I was voting someone up for replacement. Should wait for that.
UNVOTE: NRG
VOTE: 3G

Edit: Towntell is probably saying his predecessor sucked. I'm guessing this is like the opposite of the Amished or something?

C+A clarifies it, I thought I did last night.

It's not a town read. It should have read at best bad town. Meaning either not good for the town or scummy. Hence the scum read on him

[GGG]

Well I might be too tired to react everything but there are a couple of things.

First of all, hi to all the replacements! On the other hand, BMWS's leaving is

Idiotking gave a towntell in his catchup, I mean his very first sentence.

On the other hand, I didn't like GGG's catchup at all. Plenty of nulls, scumreading Rudy and me but voting for NRG who's going to be replaced, as far as I know? Plus, a player who's already wagoned. Well, well, Glycine! Also, as Texcat said in 336, most of the reads are OMGUS.
(Note to self: if/when GGG flips scum later, Copper might be his partner because 339 might be a coaching-post. Ignore this comment if the scums have daytalk.)

This, plus the fact that Newbie just appeared right after I had voted for her is enough for putting back my vote there.

VOTE: GGG
Let's Rock!

I must admit that I've only quick-looked the game. So, if I've missed anything, please remind me!

Not seeing where my reads are OMGUS.

NRG never nentions my slot
Rudy gives a light read to it but doesn't seem to want to act on it very similar to coppers. I took this to match my keep an I on it deal with it later idea.
And you. Which is not an OMGUS as it has reasons behind it.

Why are you trying to twist my early reads into an OMGUS?

Also which one of my nulls do you disagree with and what are you basing your read on for those slots.

[copper223]

@Dino
I said I liked his reasoning behind his town reads, these being:

- scumhunting for Idiotkings slot, I agree with NRG as possibly scummy and that was Constantine's last vote behind all the trolling
- C+A for town hunting, I agree that's something mafia doesn't like or think of doing.

And he later added:

- myself for not fluffying, which is basically a subset of scumhunting and is true enough.

I believe that if he is mafia those are "true reads" of his, but as mafia he can't keep giving those so if he is, the difference when has has to make stuff up will show, if it doesn't I'm more inclined to believe he is town.

[GGG]

Liking GGG as town so far. His ability to point out where his gut reads come from is a great selling point. Granted it's only 1 gut read so far, so I'll be expecting similar performance in the future to maintain that read.

-House

House it appears you are buddying me quite strongly here.

Why, you are answering questions to defend me and doing a good job of it but this early you shouldn't have that good of read on me that you are doing some pretty heavy defence. I think you have more posts defending me than I do.

[theelkspeaks]

No.

Yo mod, do scum have daytalk?

[Cane + Able]

Liking GGG as town so far. His ability to point out where his gut reads come from is a great selling point. Granted it's only 1 gut read so far, so I'll be expecting similar performance in the future to maintain that read.

-House

House it appears you are buddying me quite strongly here.

Why, you are answering questions to defend me and doing a good job of it but this early you shouldn't have that good of read on me that you are doing some pretty heavy defence. I think you have more posts defending me than I do.

Dude, you're probably the last person I'd be interested in buddying.

You know.

Anyway... I can see why pretty much anybody else would think that in similar circumstances, though.

[Cane + Able]

And truth be told, it's less about buddying you than it is disagreeing with Math, GGG.

I haven't liked his gameplay since page 1 (or thereabouts), so I just instadoubt anything he has to say.

[Mathdino]

And truth be told, it's less about buddying you than it is disagreeing with Math, GGG.

I haven't liked his gameplay since page 1 (or thereabouts), so I just instadoubt anything he has to say.

You're beginning to sound like Constantine.

@copper: Ehh, I guess. But the fact remains that he hasn't really HAD to make much stuff up since his reads don't have that much substance.
Regardless, we're not lynching anyone just yet, I'll see how he interacts with people today.

[copper223]

fair enough.

[Aneninen]

@Cooper: "She is talking about Comstantine/Idiotking there, not Newbie/GGG." – then I misread that part. Ignore my respond about that.

@C+A: this "Oh man, wow. Constantine was just profoundly awful." – from Idiotking is a towntell because I add Mathdino's opinion that Constantine is a VI regardless of his Alignment. Besides, having thought about it, I've met a similar player like him before and he did the same as town. (In short: MissMarple-town positive.)

@MathDino: as for BWMS's RVS vote/unvote, I don't know what to think but it's weird indeed. Perhaps it was unnecessarily appeasing. Or at least, I'd never do that as a townie. I vote in the RVS or don't vote but that switch makes no sense. Let's see his replacement's forthcoming posts. As for TexCat, 336 gave me town vibes.

GGG says that voting lurkers is

at least

bad town. As in, best case scenario. So a lean scum would make sense if GGG has more reason to suspect what's-his-name than simply voting a lurker.

As for this post and for some others: the fact that Newbie wasn't posting is NOT a tell in itself. The fact that she did nothing here while she was active elsewere AND the fact that she appeared right after my vote ARE tells. Adding these to GGG's eintritt-posts make me think that GGG is scum.

@GGG: House as a player who's buddying others... I must laugh! ^_^

@MathDino: No, no, no, C+A is VERY far from Constantine, I think.

[acryon]

Re-reading everything from the weekend. Will have my comments soon.

[GGG]

Sorry, I guess I needed a little break.
Thanks for subbing in, Idiotking and GGG!

I agree with the seemingly prevalent opinion that NRG's Gravity read was not really good. But I'm failing to see how having a bad meta read makes NRG scummy. It looked sincere to me. And did not seem opportunistic, unlike the votes for NRG.

When did lurking stop being a scum tell? I think lurking/low posting is absolutely a scum tell. At least in combination with other tells. I wouldn't vote a lurker solely based upon lurking, but I certainly consider it when deciding whether someone is scummy or not.

On preview:
GGG, I probably would have voted Constantine, but I did not want to suffer his attack like Rudy did. He might have appeared to be scum hunting to you, but his vote never followed his reads. And most of his reads looked like OMGUS to me.

Lurking past day 1 can be a scum tell. Scum will make sure that their day 1 play does not contain lurkers then push the vote for lurkers strategy early. This gets them through a few days with good excuses for joining wagons.

You are on my null list right now. What are your current reads.

[GGG]

@Cooper: "She is talking about Comstantine/Idiotking there, not Newbie/GGG." – then I misread that part. Ignore my respond about that.

@C+A: this "Oh man, wow. Constantine was just profoundly awful." – from Idiotking is a towntell because I add Mathdino's opinion that Constantine is a VI regardless of his Alignment. Besides, having thought about it, I've met a similar player like him before and he did the same as town. (In short: MissMarple-town positive.)

@MathDino: as for BWMS's RVS vote/unvote, I don't know what to think but it's weird indeed. Perhaps it was unnecessarily appeasing. Or at least, I'd never do that as a townie. I vote in the RVS or don't vote but that switch makes no sense. Let's see his replacement's forthcoming posts. As for TexCat, 336 gave me town vibes.

GGG says that voting lurkers is

at least

bad town. As in, best case scenario. So a lean scum would make sense if GGG has more reason to suspect what's-his-name than simply voting a lurker.

As for this post and for some others: the fact that Newbie wasn't posting is NOT a tell in itself. The fact that she did nothing here while she was active elsewere AND the fact that she appeared right after my vote ARE tells. Adding these to GGG's eintritt-posts make me think that GGG is scum.

@GGG: House as a player who's buddying others... I must laugh! ^_^

@MathDino: No, no, no, C+A is VERY far from Constantine, I think.

What is town about Tex's 336?

I still disagree with your active elsewhere tell. If lurking becomes a voting issue scum will not be lurkers. I do see how you responding after a vote might look scummy but I see that as a natural behaviour to respond to votes. We need to find better reasons for the vote than active elsewhere.

[acryon]

308 from Copper sounds very town to me, and the explanation makes a lot of sense.

Some have already said this, but no one should be reading 273 from me as alignment-based. The spirit of it is alignment-neutral and the town-comments at the end are correct from my stand-point, but should be a null to everyone else that doesn’t know my alignment.

I think at least one of the people who jumped on the strawman that Pastro’s ban was alignment-indicative are scum. This includes Can + Able and Anen.

The most recent post from Idiotking gives me town-vibes. Specifically, his avoidance of the aforementioned unreasonably popular strawman is town, as well as his general sentiments being very on-point IMO.

The thing that sticks out to me in GGG’s catch-up post is the labeling of C+A as “leaning-town” due to to “mostly gut.” The slot has posted significantly more than any other person, so it is interesting that there were no posts of note that seems to lean one way or the other, but rather the posts as a whole only gave a “lean-town due to gut” read.

Ok, now I see the reasoning in 334 and am even more confused than before you said anything. That reason is terrible. How is that alignment-indicative? The fact that C+A accepted the explanation is even more confusing. That seems really bad and out-of-character for C+A. Generally, when someone is asking someone else why they are town-reading them, it is for two reasons: 1) The person is town and believe the other may be scum throwing out town-reads without real reasoning or 2) The person is scum and is trying to give extra strength to public town-reads on them. I would believe it was 1), but then C+A followed the terrible answer up with “ok, sounds good, you’re town.”

This is easy:
VOTE: Cane + Able

While I have you C + A, could you explain how 334 was a good explanation at all?

[Cane + Able]

I think at least one of the people who jumped on the strawman that Pastro’s ban was alignment-indicative are scum. This includes Can + Able and Anen.

Are you on crack? You're making the same argument I did & criticizing me for making it first.

The most recent post from Idiotking gives me town-vibes. Specifically, his avoidance of the aforementioned unreasonably popular strawman is town, as well as his general sentiments being very on-point IMO.

The thing that sticks out to me in GGG’s catch-up post is the labeling of C+A as “leaning-town” due to to “mostly gut.” The slot has posted significantly more than any other person, so it is interesting that there were no posts of note that seems to lean one way or the other, but rather the posts as a whole only gave a “lean-town due to gut” read.

Ok, now I see the reasoning in 334 and am even more confused than before you said anything. That reason is terrible. How is that alignment-indicative? The fact that C+A accepted the explanation is even more confusing. That seems really bad and out-of-character for C+A. Generally, when someone is asking someone else why they are town-reading them, it is for two reasons: 1) The person is town and believe the other may be scum throwing out town-reads without real reasoning or 2) The person is scum and is trying to give extra strength to public town-reads on them. I would believe it was 1), but then C+A followed the terrible answer up with “ok, sounds good, you’re town.”

This is easy:
VOTE: Cane + Able

While I have you C + A, could you explain how 334 was a good explanation at all?

Gut.

I hear that's a go-to answer these days.

[Cane + Able]

Quote fail.

[Idiotking]

Sorry for my absence. I'll respond to stuff tonight. This has already started out a busy week.

[copper223]

I have a problem in this game because all of my potential mafia at this point are people being replaced (BMWS and NRG). I'm interested to see where the Acryon vs C+A is going, my early impression is I did not understand nor like GGG's buddying comment on C+A, and I don't like Acryon following up on it with what looks like a weak case. I need to hear his reply to C+A though before I take sides, in case he is seeing something I missed.

[theelkspeaks]

Vote Count 1.7
With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch

Gravity(1)

- notreallygood

Mathdino (1)

- Cane + Able

copper223 (1)

- texcat

blindmewithscience (1)

- copper223

notreallygood(3)

- GGG, Rudolph the Reindeer, Idiotking

GGG(2)

- Aneninen, Mathdino

Cain + Able(1)

- acryon


Searching for 2 replacements. :/

[Mathdino]

@acryon:
On 273, I'll be honest with you, I'm going to read things how I see them and you don't get to tell me how I should be reading posts because everything that's not a reaction test I 'should' be reading as null or town from you.

On Pastro's ban, yeah, C+A already pointed out how that argument sucks and points to you just as much as it does to them. Regardless, I don't see someone awaiting replacement after banning as an easy target for scum to latch on to, so I'm not seeing the argument there.

On 334 and C+A, while the post may not have been convincing to you, I don't see how that of all of 3G's reads is alignment indicative independent of C+A's flip, and I for one have other things to question than 334.
So basically you're scumreading C+A for accepting someone with a (in your opinion) poorly reasoned townread on them as town. But this is predicated on the idea that C+A

should

be thinking a certain thing or reading a certain way, which kind of harkens back to my first point in that we're all going to read things differently. Don't vote people for being wrong.

[acryon]

@acryon:
On 273, I'll be honest with you, I'm going to read things how I see them and you don't get to tell me how I should be reading posts because everything that's not a reaction test I 'should' be reading as null or town from you.

273 has nothing to do with reading people.

On Pastro's ban, yeah, C+A already pointed out how that argument sucks and points to you just as much as it does to them. Regardless, I don't see someone awaiting replacement after banning as an easy target for scum to latch on to, so I'm not seeing the argument there.

This is the issue. You and C + A both clearly misunderstood what I was saying. C + A and Anen both accused me of saying that the ban was alignment indicative. I did not do this, and any claim I made that the ban was alignment indicative was A) dependent on other moving parts, including my initial read on him, and B) rooted in the individual posts that got him the ban. Both X + A tried to fight against the idea that the ban was alignment indicative, which is not something I even said. Meet the strawman.

On 334 and C+A, while the post may not have been convincing to you, I don't see how that of all of 3G's reads is alignment indicative independent of C+A's flip, and I for one have other things to question than 334.
So basically you're scumreading C+A for accepting someone with a (in your opinion) poorly reasoned townread on them as town. But this is predicated on the idea that C+A

should

be thinking a certain thing or reading a certain way, which kind of harkens back to my first point in that we're all going to read things differently. Don't vote people for being wrong.

Apparently no one is reading this thread, because if you think that is the only reason I am voting for C + A, then you clearly haven't read my previous posts. I'm sorry but that townread was objectively terrible. If someone wants to explain to me how it wasn't, please do, because the only response I got from C + A on the matter was "gut read", which is not a reason for whether an explanation makes sense or not.

[Mathdino]

You talked about 273 in your last post, that's what I was referencing.

I apologise for missing the Pastro ban discussion, I admit that was probably the only part of the game I skipped over a bit because I didn't quite understand it and just wanted to wait for the replacement. Thanks for clearing that up.

And here's the crux of the issue again. "Objectively terrible". Not sure if I need to get Descartes to bash you over the head, but there is no 'objectively terrible'. Townhunting is a valid towntell and terrible math can sometimes be a towntell because scum don't like to make mistakes. And I'm saying this while scumreading the guy who made 334.
While that may not be the sole reason that you're voting for him, it is what made you vote him and that is how you presented it. If you'd like to expand on your other reasons, by all means make a mini-case. As it is it looks like you're scumreading him for agreeing with a post that you think is bad that isn't really as bad as you think.

[acryon]

You talked about 273 in your last post, that's what I was referencing.

Well in regards to that, I was more expressing my intent behind it, in that it was more extra-game.

And here's the crux of the issue again. "Objectively terrible". Not sure if I need to get Descartes to bash you over the head, but there is no 'objectively terrible'. Townhunting is a valid towntell and terrible math can sometimes be a towntell because scum don't like to make mistakes. And I'm saying this while scumreading the guy who made 334.
While that may not be the sole reason that you're voting for him, it is what made you vote him and that is how you presented it. If you'd like to expand on your other reasons, by all means make a mini-case. As it is it looks like you're scumreading him for agreeing with a post that you think is bad that isn't really as bad as you think.

Cane + Able - Never played with a hydra before, and honestly I hate the idea behind hydras in general, as it just makes things more confusing IMO. As an extension of that, I'm not sure how I'm reading the slot. Pointing out the town-slip from BMWS is pro-town unless they are a team. I am always naturally suspicion of those that seem to try and make everyone play their ideal form of mafia and adhere by its rules, which is a vibe I'm getting from C+A. Seems very confident Mathdino is scum in 101, which I think is off. This slot is leaning scum to me.

Add the strawman and the acceptance of the crappy explanation and we've got ourselves a vote. And townhunting is not a big enough reason for giving someone a town-read, as any decent scum are going to portray some townhunting.

[Rudolph the Reindeer]

I apologise for my absense. It's a busy time of year for a reindeer such as myself! There's a lot which has gone on since when I last posted. Therefore, I wish to give my opinions regarding a few things.

---

I don't get the Cain and Able vote by Acryon. It's a very weak case, in my opinion. I'm confused how you find that so convincing as to confidently throw a "that's so easy" vote out on that slot. I'm slightly suspicious of your behaviour.

I'm not particurly fond of GGG either. He walks in with a reads post stating everyone is either null or scum for arbituary reasons. Why bother making a reads post if you're just going to say half the slots are just 'null, meh', or that someone is town or scum based on 'mostly gut'? Beyond that, I don't like his posts since: most posts afterwards have been defending his scumreads or nullreads.

Also I missed this post by GGG:

Rudy, I could be reading this wrong but what over reactions to one vote are you talking about?

I voted him based on him being a hypocrite and not scumhunting, which I said earlier. His replies loaded with bad language such as 'Fuck you', 'you're the VI' and other assorted insults reassured me with the vote at the time -- that's the overreaction I'm talking about. At the time, I wasn't familiar with his meta and thus didn't know he acted like this all the time, regardless of alignment. I'm completely baffled how you found Constantine to be your strongest townread. I'm afraid I disagree.