Open 577: Hope Plus One! (GAME OVER - SCUM WIN)

[acryon]

Going back through Arcy. I don't know what to make of this post. I don't really agree that this is telling people how to play? Arcy can you reiterate why this is scummy again.

The gist is that 1) by making the kind of statements they did, they take a natural controlling role in the game, which makes it very easy to drive lynches, and 2) by being the person that dictates what the town view as scummy, it's easy to simply act in a way that runs contrary to this view.

And I get if you don't agree. I have called players out doing the same things in previous games and the town didn't listen to me, so I get it. These players do tend to turn out being scum though. I would just rather catch them before they manipulate the town into multiple mis-lynches.

[GGG]

Going back through Arcy. I don't know what to make of this post. I don't really agree that this is telling people how to play? Arcy can you reiterate why this is scummy again.

The gist is that 1) by making the kind of statements they did, they take a natural controlling role in the game, which makes it very easy to drive lynches, and 2) by being the person that dictates what the town view as scummy, it's easy to simply act in a way that runs contrary to this view.

And I get if you don't agree. I have called players out doing the same things in previous games and the town didn't listen to me, so I get it. These players do tend to turn out being scum though. I would just rather catch them before they manipulate the town into multiple mis-lynches.

Since you brought up previous play do you have any specific instances where this type of behaviour flipped scum.

[acryon]

Going back through Arcy. I don't know what to make of this post. I don't really agree that this is telling people how to play? Arcy can you reiterate why this is scummy again.

The gist is that 1) by making the kind of statements they did, they take a natural controlling role in the game, which makes it very easy to drive lynches, and 2) by being the person that dictates what the town view as scummy, it's easy to simply act in a way that runs contrary to this view.

And I get if you don't agree. I have called players out doing the same things in previous games and the town didn't listen to me, so I get it. These players do tend to turn out being scum though. I would just rather catch them before they manipulate the town into multiple mis-lynches.

Since you brought up previous play do you have any specific instances where this type of behaviour flipped scum.

The vast majority of my play history is offline, so I don't have much to link you in that regard, but Victor in Crossroads Mafia in my Wiki is a more subtle example of this.

[GGG]

I disagree that c/a posting is a anything like Victor in the other game. I am not seeing it. It feels like you are shoehorning one of your scum tells onto him.

[GGG]

Mod, if we don't have replacements will the day be extended or is our deadline a hard deadline?

[acryon]

I disagree that c/a posting is a anything like Victor in the other game. I am not seeing it. It feels like you are shoehorning one of your scum tells onto him.

Like I said, it's fine if you don't believe me, but I think that the characteristics being portrayed by C+A are much more indicative of scum than some of the other things being identified as alignment-indicative. I'm not doing this to promote any agenda other than one to lynch scum. I don't care about being right; I just feel that I am in this case and that C+A is scum.

[GGG]

I disagree that c/a posting is a anything like Victor in the other game. I am not seeing it. It feels like you are shoehorning one of your scum tells onto him.

Like I said, it's fine if you don't believe me, but I think that the characteristics being portrayed by C+A are much more indicative of scum than some of the other things being identified as alignment-indicative. I'm not doing this to promote any agenda other than one to lynch scum. I don't care about being right; I just feel that I am in this case and that C+A is scum.

I have Acry as lean town based on this exchange. I disagree with the argument on C/A but its consistent right now.

[Cane + Able]

Starting to question the motivation behind your tunneling, acryon.

It's looking less derpy & more scummy every time you ignore simple logic in favor of insisting on your own flawed perspective.

Scum reads don't bother me, but bad ones that are held up as gospel do.

[acryon]

Starting to question the motivation behind your tunneling, acryon.

It's looking less derpy & more scummy every time you ignore simple logic in favor of insisting on your own flawed perspective.

Scum reads don't bother me, but bad ones that are held up as gospel do.

1) What is the simple logic you're referring to that I'm ignoring?
2) How is my perspective flawed other than the fact that it is partially gut?

Every scum-read is backed up on some level by a gut-read, and mine is no different. I'm not proclaiming it as gospel any more than any other scum-read. My gut coupled with your actions and my experience seem to indicate it is likely, however.

[acryon]

Starting to question the motivation behind your tunneling, acryon.

And tunneling seems like a bit of a misevaluation. All of my posts recently have just been answering the questions/issue raised by others about my feelings on you.

[Cane + Able]

Going back through Arcy. I don't know what to make of this post. I don't really agree that this is telling people how to play? Arcy can you reiterate why this is scummy again.

The gist is that 1) by making the kind of statements they did, they take a natural controlling role in the game, which makes it very easy to drive lynches, and 2) by being the person that dictates what the town view as scummy, it's easy to simply act in a way that runs contrary to this view.

Nobody is controlling anybody here, least of all me. Being outspoken isn't scummy. Using something as personality driven as that as a scum tell is why people don't listen to you.

Also, just because I have opinions and voice them does not mean I speak for everybody. That you think I do says more about you than me, but not in an alignment indicative fashion.

- House

[acryon]

Nobody is controlling anybody here, least of all me.

This is total WIFOM, and I can't believe you're even saying this. If it was abundantly clear that you were controlling people, it wouldn't be a very good scum strategy now would it?

Being outspoken isn't scummy. Using something as personality driven as that as a scum tell is why people don't listen to you.

Of course it's not inherently scummy. But I think there is a difference between being outspoken and attempting to be manipulative. Maybe it's based in a lot of gut and personal experience, but I think you're doing the latter.

Also, just because I have opinions and voice them does not mean I speak for everybody.

Again, the validity of this statement is entirely dependent on your alignment, and is thus, irrelevant. The whole point of manipulation is making people feel like they have a voice, but really it is your voice. Am I really having to spell this out for you like you have

never

experienced manipulative scum before? I find this very hard to believe.

[acryon]

Just to add some fuel to the fire, I can't be the only one that finds it interesting that someone who has very clearly played a good bit of mafia seems bewildered by the idea of manipulative scum. This also ties in with the playing dumb in response to GGG's argument. Town have no reason to play dumb. You can call

this

tunneling, and it is.

[theelkspeaks]

Mod, if we don't have replacements will the day be extended or is our deadline a hard deadline?

I'm willing to be flexible with the deadline pending the replacement situation.

[theelkspeaks]

Vote Count 1.8
With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch

Gravity(1)

- notreallygood

Mathdino (1)

- Cane + Able

copper223 (1)

- texcat

blindmewithscience (1)

- copper223

notreallygood(1)

- Idiotking

GGG(2)

- Aneninen, Mathdino

Cain + Able(1)

- acryon

Aneninen (1)

- GGG

Acryon(1)

- Rudolph the Reindeer


Searching for 2 replacements. :/

[theelkspeaks]

I'll be traveling for the next week for the holiday, expect slightly less thread checking from me (though my posts will still be about as often).

[copper223]

@Acryon
The point I can sympathize with is the misrepping, I thought about it as well when discussing lurkers with the House head of the hydra:
- Why did he misrep you and call you town after doing so?
- Did you check his playstyle before concluding he had misrepped you?

The point about scum trying to establish a "protocol for scumhunting" for town I find pretty bad, I understand hiding proper scumhunting and actively lurking behind theory discussion, but why would scum piss other players off by telling them how they are supposed to play? I don't see that as manipulative in the slightest, it's quite the opposite and more akin to a bully approach, which isn't going to make you any friends, so I find it an unlikely strategy for scum.

[acryon]

@Acryon
The point I can sympathize with is the misrepping, I thought about it as well when discussing lurkers with the House head of the hydra:
- Why did he misrep you and call you town after doing so?
- Did you check his playstyle before concluding he had misrepped you?

- Because scum removing credibility from town (specifically those that seem to be on to them) is just as important, if not more-so in certain cases, as pushing lynches on town.
- No, because it's the specific way in which they were doing it combined with the misrepresentation and actions that seemed to not line up with their proclaimed MO that makes them very likely scum to me. Playstyle alone is never alignment indicative, and that has never been my argument. But the way in which it is being done in this game, put together with the actions that are alignment indicative, makes the play feel scum-motivated.

The point about scum trying to establish a "protocol for scumhunting" for town I find pretty bad, I understand hiding proper scumhunting and actively lurking behind theory discussion, but why would scum piss other players off by telling them how they are supposed to play? I don't see that as manipulative in the slightest, it's quite the opposite and more akin to a bully approach, which isn't going to make you any friends, so I find it an unlikely strategy for scum.

I find quite the opposite to be true. In many games, it is very easy for someone to control the game (town or scum) by telling people how to play the game. This obviously doesn't work quite as well in games with a hard-headed town, but it can, and does, happen and work. You can believe it is incorrect, but it doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

[Aneninen]

The gist is that 1) by making the kind of statements they did, they take a natural controlling role in the game, which makes it very easy to drive lynches, and 2) by being the person that dictates what the town view as scummy, it's easy to simply act in a way that runs contrary to this view.

Erm, excuse me, the Vote Count doesn't really show that they would be able to control anyone here...

Nobody is controlling anybody here, least of all me.

This is total WIFOM, and I can't believe you're even saying this. If it was abundantly clear that you were controlling people, it wouldn't be a very good scum strategy now would it?

It

is

a good scum-strategy but I've seen townies misreading the setup tunnelling another townie for Days... too many times...
Do you have other scumreads too?

________

Either there are not too many interesting things right now or I've skimmed over something important.

[acryon]

The gist is that 1) by making the kind of statements they did, they take a natural controlling role in the game, which makes it very easy to drive lynches, and 2) by being the person that dictates what the town view as scummy, it's easy to simply act in a way that runs contrary to this view.

Erm, excuse me, the Vote Count doesn't really show that they would be able to control anyone here...

I don't recall ever indicating that I thought it was working particularly well. In, fact, I explicitly stated the possibility of the opposite:

This obviously doesn't work quite as well in games with a hard-headed town

Nobody is controlling anybody here, least of all me.

This is total WIFOM, and I can't believe you're even saying this. If it was abundantly clear that you were controlling people, it wouldn't be a very good scum strategy now would it?

It

is

a good scum-strategy but I've seen townies misreading the setup tunnelling another townie for Days... too many times...
Do you have other scumreads too?

________

Either there are not too many interesting things right now or I've skimmed over something important.

I still have a

very mild

scum-read on texcat, but it's not even worth discussing at this point.

And I'm not even saying that my C+A case is incredible, but given the relative wasteland that is this game, I think it is by far the best one given the scenario.

[copper223]

@Acryon
C+A and House in particular has behaved liked this with both players townreading and scumreading him, so I find it likely this is more indicative of a general tendency in his play rather than scum design to throw doubt on the other players, moreover since I believe individual player tendencies are usually more revealing than abstract concepts on how mafia does or does not play, I checked him out and found this kind of dogmatic approach pretty typical for him and not really alignment indicative. See for instance Newbie 1539, which is full of similar examples. Tell me what you think of it.

[Cane + Able]

Just to add some fuel to the fire, I can't be the only one that finds it interesting that someone who has very clearly played a good bit of mafia seems bewildered by the idea of manipulative scum. This also ties in with the playing dumb in response to GGG's argument. Town have no reason to play dumb. You can call

this

tunneling, and it is.

I joined in September. If you consider a few games "a good bit", idk what to tell ya, bro.

- House

[Cane + Able]

See for instance Newbie 1539, which is full of similar examples. Tell me what you think of it.

Oh hey, my first game here.

Before that game, I played one on another site, which led me here.

Fear my experience!

[acryon]

I joined in September. If you consider a few games "a good bit", idk what to tell ya, bro.

- House

This is why I think hydras are stupid. Wake has played a lot more than that, so I think my claim is still reasonable. The whole point of a hydra is to treat it like one slot, yes? So unless you sign up as separate people, I am not going to analyze you separately.

@Acryon
C+A and House in particular has behaved liked this with both players townreading and scumreading him, so I find it likely this is more indicative of a general tendency in his play rather than scum design to throw doubt on the other players, moreover since I believe individual player tendencies are usually more revealing than abstract concepts on how mafia does or does not play, I checked him out and found this kind of dogmatic approach pretty typical for him and not really alignment indicative. See for instance Newbie 1539, which is full of similar examples. Tell me what you think of it.

I certainly agree that the same sort of MO seems to exist there, but I still don't like it here in the context of the misrepresentations. I also don't tend to put much stock in player meta, so I'm even more likely to trust my gut over their meta in this case.

[acryon]

That was needlessly harsh, but I don't like the idea of you using the information of one of you to try and disprove one of my statements as if you are a single player.